Crossrail opening delayed until sometime between October 2020 and March 2021

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by gavin, 31 Aug 2018.

  1. USBT

    USBT Member

    Messages:
    99
    Joined:
    5 Nov 2017
    If you provide the headline then people can usually Google the headline and by following the link from Google can view the full article (as a minimum once). It works from a mobile better than desktop.

    It’s obviously not surprising that MTR want the extension (subject to performance) because they’ve had no chance to demonstrate their performance.
     
  2. EdinburghTrain

    EdinburghTrain Member

    Messages:
    27
    Joined:
    4 Sep 2016
    https://www.ft.com/content/0d020876-ffc4-11e8-aebf-99e208d3e521

    https://www.ft.com/content/ce178f0a-6a62-11e9-80c7-60ee53e6681d
     
  3. kevin_roche

    kevin_roche Member

    Messages:
    198
    Joined:
    26 Feb 2019
    The headline is:
    Text I was referring to:

     
  4. plcd1

    plcd1 Member

    Messages:
    788
    Joined:
    23 May 2015
    Before we turn Mr Moylan into a "saint" a couple of comments. Whatever the rights and wrongs of an elected Mayoralty it is standard practice that political appointees to Boards change when the political party in charge of the Mayoralty changes. It is inevitable that a Mayor will want "their own person" in place. I can't see how Mr Moylan could ever work for Sadiq Khan. This would be no different to Shaun Bailey (if elected the next Mayor) being unable to work with Heidi Alexander (the current deputy Mayor for Transport). You'd expect these appointments to change. The TfL Board is also reconstituted when the Mayoralty changes.

    Secondly did Mr Moylan ever get any answers to his questions? If he did who did he tell? The message under Boris was "everything on time, everything on budget" and yet it was obvious that it was not at certain locations. Informed comment earlier in this long thread of posts indicated problems were evident in 2016 which is just at the end of Boris's term. If Mr Moylan was as eagle eyed as suggested did he not spot these issues? There was also the failure to change governance arrangements or to at least start the process of changing them to reflect the transition from construction to system integration and operation.

    This is not to excuse what has (or has not) happened since 2016 under Mayor Khan but I suspect Mr Moylan's recent studied silence is as much to do with politics and the "blame game" as anything. There has been no suggestion from him AFAIK that he spotted the flaws in Crossrail's procurement structure for the main works, the flaws in the project programme nor that he saw the risks in the "we can make it, we can do it" organisational culture in Crossrail that prevented "bad" news being properly reported, challenged and acted upon. Hindsight's a great thing but let's be challenging to everyone who has had a role in this mess.
     
  5. hwl

    hwl Established Member

    Messages:
    3,498
    Joined:
    5 Feb 2012
    I think part of the point with Daniel Moylan was that he had been on the CR board or Deputy Mayor Transport or both for 7 years up to 2016 (and was also instrumental in getting CR2 going, the estuary airport thinking as well as Urban space initiates to encourage walking). At which point in 2016 he is replaced with some one without the 7 years of Crossrail insider knowledge. Hence any new people coming on to the board as non-execs faced significant challenges in not having the background with the project to inform awkward questioning. Mark Wild and even more recent arrival as non exec and now CEO has remarked several times on the the length of time he took him to get up to speed in both roles.

    DM's involvement in asking awkwards question (a very necessary role) earlier could have been both positive and negative. In the negative case it could be that stuff was just brushed under the carpet so he couldn't find out!
     
    Last edited: 1 May 2019
  6. kevin_roche

    kevin_roche Member

    Messages:
    198
    Joined:
    26 Feb 2019
    I agree that it looks like the ingrained culture was a major part of the issue.
     
  7. hwl

    hwl Established Member

    Messages:
    3,498
    Joined:
    5 Feb 2012
    Or was the message in reality that it will be on time on budget not that it currently was on time, i.e. they expected to be able to catch up. The problem with that is bills also then some in later if the work is completed later.

    Being willing to admit all was not well might have been healthier in the long run.
     
  8. kevin_roche

    kevin_roche Member

    Messages:
    198
    Joined:
    26 Feb 2019
    The first 5 TV programs the the BBC made were all like that. I don't know how much was artistic licence to create a bit of drama for the TV but in every one there was some aspect of the work that was going wrong and was fixed by the end of the episode.
     
  9. Mikey C

    Mikey C Established Member

    Messages:
    2,543
    Joined:
    11 Feb 2013
    It's an annoying aspect of otherwise excellent engineering documentaries that they feel the need to hype up the drama in this way, when you know that they aren't going to finish the episode with it going horribly wrong (especially when you would have heard about it if the bridge collapsed or the dam or tunnel was breached)

    "This is a key part of the process...if this piece of the bridge/dam/tunnel/reactor isn't installed properly then the results could be catastrophic."
     
  10. plcd1

    plcd1 Member

    Messages:
    788
    Joined:
    23 May 2015
    OK fair enough but with a politicised system of appointments you will always get that loss of knowledge at the point that administrations change. It's unfortunate but it's little different to the regular nonsense you get in projects where those who do the development and thinking don't have roles on the implementation team and those doing the implementing walk away and leave the end result to other people. Ditto for things like franchise procurements where those who pull the bid together are not those who will be tasked with running the new contract and operating the services / implementing change / introducing new trains. I know different skill sets are needed for different tasks but you also need long term oversight and knowledge along with proper overlaps and communication between key activity phases.
     
  11. Bikeman78

    Bikeman78 Member

    Messages:
    574
    Joined:
    26 Apr 2018
    It still does on the underground. For example, Baker Street to Liverpool Street and Tower Hill to South Kensington have 24 trains per hour all day. No doubt that increases slightly in the peaks.
     
    Last edited: 1 May 2019
  12. Bikeman78

    Bikeman78 Member

    Messages:
    574
    Joined:
    26 Apr 2018
    How accurate was the original Victoria line system? Occasionally it would brake too early so the train would creep along the platform a few metres but I never went on a train that overshot.
     
  13. kevin_roche

    kevin_roche Member

    Messages:
    198
    Joined:
    26 Feb 2019
    That's why I liked the last two better. Things did go wrong.

    It was mostly because of several really bad rail accidents. The law was changed so that all lines require some sort of train protection system. Since then the EU have introduced new laws which we have commited to which require the system to be ETCS unless you get special permission for it not to be ETCS.

    On the choice of signalling system. The EU Rail people authorised the use of Trainguard MT only as a temporary measure and it must be changed to ETCS Level 3 once it is possible.

    If you examine the details of how Trainguard MT works it is very similar to the drafts I have read about ETCS Level 3.
     
    Last edited: 2 May 2019
  14. hwl

    hwl Established Member

    Messages:
    3,498
    Joined:
    5 Feb 2012
  15. kevin_roche

    kevin_roche Member

    Messages:
    198
    Joined:
    26 Feb 2019
    There is a meeting of the Public Accounts Committee on Wednesday 15 May 2019 2:30 pm
    Oral Evidence Session
    Crossrail

    Witnesses
    Bernadette Kelly, Permanent Secretary, Department for Transport
    Tony Meggs, Chairman, Crossrail Ltd
    Mark Wild, CEO, Crossrail Ltd
    Matthew Lodge, Senior Responsible Owner, Crossrail Ltd
    Sir Terry Morgan, former Chair, Crossrail Ltd
    Andrew Wolstenholme, former CEO, Crossrail Ltd

    Location
    The Boothroyd Room, Portcullis House
     
  16. Ianno87

    Ianno87 Established Member

    Messages:
    4,616
    Joined:
    3 May 2015
    Those 24 trains are shorter and slower than Crossrail trains.
     
  17. kevin_roche

    kevin_roche Member

    Messages:
    198
    Joined:
    26 Feb 2019
    It has been widely reported that Crossrail has lots of drivers sitting around doing nothing. How many drivers are actually needed for TfL Rail at the moment? Is it worth training some to drive on the Overground?
     
  18. iphone76

    iphone76 Member

    Messages:
    544
    Joined:
    6 Nov 2010
    Location:
    South Essex
    It has been widely reported, but isn't accurate.

    There is lots of training and testing going on. East drivers are learning the west route and new signalling systems. Plus west drivers have route retention diagrams on the East to ensure their knowledge isn't lost.
     
  19. matt_world2004

    matt_world2004 Established Member

    Messages:
    2,140
    Joined:
    5 Nov 2014
    The drivers on step back duties for Tfl Rail West to ensure reliability with the 7 minute turn round time
     
  20. 306024

    306024 Established Member

    Messages:
    2,485
    Joined:
    23 Jan 2013
    Location:
    East Anglia
    Lots and lots of training. Look at what happened at Thameslink when sufficient training wasn’t complete before the timetable was introduced, no one wants to be in that situation.
     
  21. HowardGWR

    HowardGWR Established Member

    Messages:
    4,621
    Joined:
    30 Jan 2013
    ??? Surely, if one is adjudging the throughput, the length of the trains is immaterial and the fact that they are slower only makes the signalling and platform efficiency more admirable?
     
  22. Bald Rick

    Bald Rick Established Member

    Messages:
    8,998
    Joined:
    28 Sep 2010
    Train length is crucial - a longer train takes longer to clear each block / point of conflict.

    And a slower train needs shorter braking distances. Thereby shorter signalling sections, therefore the potential to run more trains per hour.

    The Thameslink core works at 30mph; it wouldn’t at 60 mph.
     
  23. kevin_roche

    kevin_roche Member

    Messages:
    198
    Joined:
    26 Feb 2019
    At a session yesterday of Parliament's Public Accounts Committee dedicated to HS2 and Crossrail it was stated that the through running of trains from Reading / Heathrow into the tunnels is likely to happen one year after the tunnels open for service from Abbey Wood to Paddington. The service from Shenfield into the tunnels will be six months after the Abbey Wood to Paddington service.

    Tony Meggs says in his evidence:
    https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/ad70c511-864f-4136-9343-d3fd0f92a85c?in=16:55:30&out=17:02:10
     
  24. itfcfan

    itfcfan Member

    Messages:
    215
    Joined:
    7 May 2011
    Thanks for sharing that. In the same clip, the delayed "digitalisation" of the railway is discussed as a compromise to reduce work that needs to be done before the opening. It's described that this digitalisation will be introduced a year after the railway is opened - in the meantime, extra duties will be performed manually by operational staff. Does anyone know what this means? I'm pretty certain this does not refer to signalling. Is this something around operation of stations or similar?
     
  25. kevin_roche

    kevin_roche Member

    Messages:
    198
    Joined:
    26 Feb 2019
    There is actually a lot of interesting stuff on Crossrail and HS2 which raises even more questions in the two and a half hours of that meeting.

    I have an image in my head now of a row of TfL employees along the platform with whiteboards putting up the times to next train to Heathrow.
     
  26. hwl

    hwl Established Member

    Messages:
    3,498
    Joined:
    5 Feb 2012
    I suspect much more about interactions between Crossrail platforms and the existing stations they are linked to as the existing station all effectively have unique sets of equipment
     
  27. jellybaby

    jellybaby Member

    Messages:
    222
    Joined:
    27 Dec 2012
    Interesting article in the Standard at https://www.standard.co.uk/news/tra...y-not-be-finished-for-two-years-a4143806.html

    The now well known Bond Street is stuffed but further down:

    How can the spec be so wrong?
     
  28. hwl

    hwl Established Member

    Messages:
    3,498
    Joined:
    5 Feb 2012
    Canary Wharf were desperate for retail income from the top 3 floors so went ahead and built it completing it shortly before the final CR design was finished as it was 3 years (in theory and 4 to 5 in practice) ahead of the other stations.

    Fire Alarm system not suitable for underground station use.

    Escalators the cheapest they could find not the heavy duty ones LU use.
     
  29. reddragon

    reddragon Member

    Messages:
    719
    Joined:
    24 Mar 2016
    Location:
    Churn (closed)
    Exactly as I said last October a few weeks before the announcement, see!

    Builders cut corners and used cheaper items outside of LULs spec & hoped to get away with it, but shock horror, not only were they caught out but the stuff installed didn't work well enough!
     
  30. reddragon

    reddragon Member

    Messages:
    719
    Joined:
    24 Mar 2016
    Location:
    Churn (closed)
    Add to that control systems, pumps, drainage, the list goes on & on and not only at Canary Wharf!
     

Share This Page