Crossrail opening delayed until sometime between October 2020 and March 2021

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by gavin, 31 Aug 2018.

  1. kevin_roche

    kevin_roche Member

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    I've set my recorder. I can let you know later if its worth watching but I don't plan to watch the adverts.
     
    Last edited: 3 Aug 2019
  2. kevin_roche

    kevin_roche Member

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    I just watched the Channel 5 program and it was interesting. Some new specifics I did not know about the extra costs at some of the stations. Some stuff I suspected was confirmed about poor organisation and poor project management. Of personal interest was that one of the people interviewed was a chap I was at school with. :o
     
  3. DynamicSpirit

    DynamicSpirit Established Member

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    I watched most of it, thanks to your post hear! ;)

    I was astonished when they stated that the final cost of Bond Street station was around £500M and Whitechapel over £600M. For context, that would mean that either one of those stations cost more on its own than the entire Borders Railway.
     
  4. absolutelymilk

    absolutelymilk Established Member

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    To be fair, Bond Street tube station exit and entries are nearly 40 million, Borders railway total journeys are what, a million or two? Seems pretty good value looking at it that way!
     
  5. samuelmorris

    samuelmorris Established Member

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    But by that token, you would need every single person who uses Bond Street station in a year to pay £15 to cover that cost, each time they visit. Just the cost of the station, not that of the rolling stock, tunnel boring, infrastructure test & fit-out and all the political shenanigans.

    Of course, that's to be covered over decades rather than a single year but it highlights how expensive it is.
     
  6. mrmartin

    mrmartin Member

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    Seems pretty good value to me - say it has a 50 year useful life (probably an underestimate considering how tube stations 150+ years ago are still functional in many ways), that's 30p per visit. Keep in mind also that I wouldn't be surprised if with Crossrail Bond street passengers double pretty quickly, it's down to 15p a visit. And those prices are 'locked in', inflation will erode that massively also over the coming decades.
     
  7. samuelmorris

    samuelmorris Established Member

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    Perhaps, but again that doesn't cover the cost of actually running it.
     
  8. ijmad

    ijmad Established Member

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    That's not how government accounting on infrastructure projects works. The question is whether each person who uses Crossrail to Bond Street will generate an additional £15 (or more) as a result of being able to travel across London more quickly, and thus work more, work smarter, work better (thanks to an extra half hour in bed), or get a better job. It's all about the overall ROI.
     
  9. mmh

    mmh Established Member

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    There is no "to be fair" when it comes to the Crossrail debacle. Bond Street is expected to cost about 3 times the planned amount, Whitechapel 5 times.

    They were the stations highlighted in the programme, but they're not alone.

    The figures are absolutely appalling.

    https://www.architectsjournal.co.uk...tations-and-tunnels-revealed/10042356.article

    As Wolmer said in the programme, this will have repercussions for other transport investment - his example was that Crossrail 2 is effectively dead.
     
  10. hwl

    hwl Established Member

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    40m entries/exits currently and likely to increase and huge interchange volumes too.

    Appraisal period is usually 60 years for infrastructure schemes.
     
    Last edited: 4 Aug 2019
  11. Bald Rick

    Bald Rick Established Member

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    I’m a bit surprised that you’re surprised. That’s how much big stations built deep underground in the middle of an expensive city cost.
     
  12. hwl

    hwl Established Member

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    Wolmer will criticise anything that he wasn't involved wit - it is how he makes a living these days.

    The CR2 team were probably aware of CR1 problems before CR1 were and have designed out many of the issues e.g. they were already allowing for long build period, with more time for station build and being more realistic on cost (they have some benchmarks now!)

    Bond Street and Whitechapel are the worst over runs though, both were amongst the first contracts awarded which might have lead to contractors bidding low to guarantee themselves some CR work. The later awarded station contracts have seen less over run

    Farringdon turned out to be a geological nightmare but the split nature of the station construction ( most of civils /rest) appears to have acted as a good fire-break and meant that main contractors more suited to the work going on under each contract were chosen. Most of the main constractors chosen for the station work are more civils focused with not much systems integration experience.

    Also worth looking at original station costs vs the value engineered from 2010/11 that are used as the cost comparison point.
     
  13. si404

    si404 Member

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    I thought those central stations were going to cost about a billion each - to get them for half that is a decent price.

    The Bank station upgrade is £600m - two new entrances like Crossrail stations but no new line and only one new platform (half the length of a Crossrail one). OK these pounds might be more recent (and so worth less due to inflation), but it shows that those huge figures are what these mega projects under London interfacing with both surface and existing underground infrastructure cost.
     
  14. Bald Rick

    Bald Rick Established Member

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    Yep, and Victoria was around £700m, for one new entrance and no new platforms (but a fair bit of new passageway).
     
  15. si404

    si404 Member

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    has he made a living any other way? He managed to be the goto railway talking head for the media, but he only has two things to say: renationalise the railways, and don't engineer new railways but engineer society instead to get rid of those pesky passengers who want to travel at popular times creating capacity issues...
     
  16. si404

    si404 Member

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    Indeed, and that would have been my example if I had found the price with a quick glance at Google.

    There's a reason why stand alone Central London station upgrades are rare despite issues at many stations - they cost a lot.
     
  17. Bald Rick

    Bald Rick Established Member

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    Anyone with crayons wanting to cost a new ‘Crossrail’ style line can have a punt with £1bn per Underground station, and £150m per single track km in tunnel. Will be there or thereabouts for the underground sections. Add in costs of a depot, fleet, and any work on the NR network and you’re there.
     
  18. kevin_roche

    kevin_roche Member

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    Some of the extra costs at Bond street are due to the construction supporting the building above it. I only hope they can charge enough rent for that to make it worthwhile.
     
  19. InOban

    InOban Established Member

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    AIR that the quoted costs for Bond St and Whitechapel would not have included the cost of the original tunnels and station box?
     
  20. mrmartin

    mrmartin Member

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    I agree, I wasn't justifying the overruns whatsoever. I'm more making the point that these huge £ investments aren't actually that much when amortized over 50+ years with billions of users...
     
  21. absolutelymilk

    absolutelymilk Established Member

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    Exactly, Crossrail will have 200 million annual users for (even assuming it overruns further to) £20 billion (so £100 per annual user), compared to £300 million for the Borders with 2 million users (£150 per annual user).
     
  22. reddragon

    reddragon Member

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    The fares are also much higher in London
     
  23. Class 170101

    Class 170101 Established Member

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    'Engineering' society has been talked about a lot since the Second World War. It was discussed as a means of not building the Victoria Line by spreading people amongst existing capacity. Interestingly now of course to some extent it is now happening. Monday the busiest morning peak, Thursday has become the new Friday with people now working at home on Fridays as has been discussed elsewhere, and thats before one considers working from home on a daily basis.
     
  24. Clip

    Clip On Moderation

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    Not sure that is true as they are going to be using the current rates on Oyster/Contactless which make them very reasonable indeed.
     
  25. kevin_roche

    kevin_roche Member

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    In case anyone here wants to watch the Channel 5 Documentary, Crossrail: Where Did It All Go Wrong?, it is being shown again on Friday at 8pm on Channel 5.
     
  26. samuelmorris

    samuelmorris Established Member

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    Per-mile, though, as many London journeys are quite short, they can be very expensive. 1-2 mile journeys are still priced at the zone 1 all-day fare of £2.40 which means they are in excess of £1/mile. Not saying I disagree with this as I know why fares need to be priced such but 'higher fares in London' is generally a fair statement except for a few specific journeys (e.g. long journeys to zone 6 that aren't on the premium Oyster rate, such as c2c).
     
  27. E759

    E759 Member

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  28. kevin_roche

    kevin_roche Member

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    I was going to suggest that but I couldn't find a way to create a quote from that page that would keep the admins here happy. I keep getting into trouble for not adding quotes and asking a suitable question to encourage discussion. :(
     
  29. Clip

    Clip On Moderation

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    People who pay that price are very few and far between though so its not a fair comparison at all and most of the people who would do such a thing would already hold a travelcard as theyre commuters and even if they were tourists the capping would come into effect which is £7 for all day travelling in zone 1 or two which is excellent value for money for all day travel - which you simply cant beat especially using the Borders railway in the example shown as £7 wont get you far and only one trip in each direction.
     
  30. samuelmorris

    samuelmorris Established Member

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    That shouldn't be an issue as long as it's obvious what the link is about. I think just posting a link with no supporting text is frowned upon but otherwise should be fine.
     

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