Crossrail opening delayed until sometime between October 2020 and March 2021

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by gavin, 31 Aug 2018.

  1. Non Multi

    Non Multi Member

    Messages:
    450
    Joined:
    11 Dec 2017
    You say this - as well as the new cameras for the 345s, there's new cameras for the platform CCTV, up to 2 per post and there's loads of new posts at each station, then there's more new cameras on the buildings and the footbridges/subways. Finally there's also the existing dispatch cameras for the GWR Turbos where video monitors are used. So yeah, that's a lot of cameras!
     
  2. kevin_roche

    kevin_roche Member

    Messages:
    279
    Joined:
    26 Feb 2019
    A new update on progress was published yesterday on the Crossrail website.The highlights are:

    Unfortunately it doesn't appear to give any extra information than was given in this month's report by Mark Wild to the London Assembly Transport Committee.
     
  3. samuelmorris

    samuelmorris Established Member

    Messages:
    3,768
    Joined:
    18 Jul 2013
    Location:
    Brentwood, Essex
    The close headway milestone was a couple of months ago, it'd be nice for them to tell us a bit more about how that's going, as that's the most concerning part of the scheme. With station fit-out we have a tangible view on how far they've got simply by how complete the stations look, but the train software testing is an unpredictable amount of time to completion, it could be a couple of months before they get it sorted, it could be a few years.

    The 'achieving a high standard of performance' is a bit questionable re: the rolling stock reliability. Yes they are improving but they are still well below par even compared to other troublesome new rolling stock. Statements like that make me question the validity of other reports of 'progressing well' that we don't have our own information to make a judgment on.
     
  4. matt_world2004

    matt_world2004 Established Member

    Messages:
    2,190
    Joined:
    5 Nov 2014
    Considering the stations were supposed to be finished december 2017 that's terrible
     
  5. Justapunter

    Justapunter Member

    Messages:
    297
    Joined:
    21 Jun 2018
    You're supposed to be saying how wonderful it all is. How good they are at spending our money and how brilliant it is to have the extra capacity. Being years late, with currently unreliable trains, massively over budget and having had to sell the entire fleet of 345s and lease them back. But people will still trust politicians (both Boris and Khan) with our money.

    It's got local politicians, the DFT, Network Rail, contractors galore and is anyone surprised it's a mess ?
     
  6. kevin_roche

    kevin_roche Member

    Messages:
    279
    Joined:
    26 Feb 2019
    I would really like to see the latest reports from Jacobs. They tend to be more realistic and do report the real issues, even if they get heavily redacted. Unfortunately the latest one made public was dated 24 June and was for the period 28 April 2019 to 25 May 2019, so its quite out of date now. I think everyone at TfL is on holiday as there is very few updates on their website.

    The latest on the software in the overview there said:

    And in more detail in the section on Phase 3:

    We know things have moved on since then and it would be nice to know if its in the right or wrong direction.
     
  7. Railwaysceptic

    Railwaysceptic Member

    Messages:
    476
    Joined:
    6 Nov 2017
    I'm not convinced many people do trust them with our money. Fewer people vote in elections than before and respect for career politicians has never been lower.
     
  8. kevin_roche

    kevin_roche Member

    Messages:
    279
    Joined:
    26 Feb 2019
    There is a new article, by Mark Wild, on the London First website which reports progress and confirms the Crossrail plans.

     
  9. TheManOnThe172

    TheManOnThe172 Member

    Messages:
    115
    Joined:
    1 Aug 2014
    Isn't it wonderful how a carefully-glossed phrase can provide comfort?

    Are they sure that they are going "to quickly find" solutions?

    Am I being too cynical in fearing that they might actually be working together "to desperately seek" solutions?
     
  10. kevin_roche

    kevin_roche Member

    Messages:
    279
    Joined:
    26 Feb 2019
    I really want to see some more recent Jacobs Project Representative reports. They are much more realistic about these kinds of things.
     
  11. hwl

    hwl Established Member

    Messages:
    4,118
    Joined:
    5 Feb 2012
    The quickest solutions are often those not quickly found!
     
  12. mrmartin

    mrmartin Member

    Messages:
    517
    Joined:
    17 Dec 2012
    Anyone know which report they are mentioning here? Is it a new one? Struggling to find it.

    https://www.building.co.uk/news/cro...-at-pair-building-bond-street/5101322.article

     
  13. kevin_roche

    kevin_roche Member

    Messages:
    279
    Joined:
    26 Feb 2019
    Possibly this document. http://content.tfl.gov.uk/crl-board-minutes-20-june-2019.pdf

     
  14. KingJ

    KingJ Member

    Messages:
    131
    Joined:
    23 Dec 2012
    Crossrail have put up a video clip on YouTube of dynamic testing going on at Stepney Green Junction. From the description;
     
  15. silverfoxcc

    silverfoxcc Member

    Messages:
    312
    Joined:
    17 Apr 2012
    How come complete numpties get put in charge of things like this..HS2 as well. These people are not even a joke, yet i will bet they will get knighthoods at the end of this farce.
     
  16. The Ham

    The Ham Established Member

    Messages:
    6,041
    Joined:
    6 Jul 2012
    At 0:09 front of the first unit goes past at 0:46 the second goes past.

    I assume that is much closer than the service will actually be running at, other than for one train departing a station and the next approaching. Is that correct?
     
  17. DynamicSpirit

    DynamicSpirit Established Member

    Messages:
    3,843
    Joined:
    12 Apr 2012
    'Numpties?'

    So I guess if they put you in charge of this complex 10-year-ish project involving thousands of different sub-projects that all need to be managed, coordinated with each other, made sure that small number of people who have the right skills are available at the correct time along with all the equipment they need, etc. etc., you personally would be able to get it done absolutely perfectly without any problems whatsoever, right?
     
  18. Mitchell Hurd

    Mitchell Hurd Member

    Messages:
    621
    Joined:
    28 Oct 2017
    Hello there. I'm a bit confused here as the Reading to Paddington section starts from December 2019 but I'm not sure about the bit from Paddington towards central London.

    I believe the bit between Liverpool Street and Shenfield has been in operation since June 2017.

    I'm guessing it's the whole Reading to Shenfield that opens between (as the thread says) October 2020 and March 2021?
     
  19. Taunton

    Taunton Established Member

    Messages:
    3,882
    Joined:
    1 Aug 2013
    If all that had actually happened we would indeed be impressed. But it didn't. So we're not.
     
  20. JonathanH

    JonathanH Established Member

    Messages:
    2,419
    Joined:
    29 May 2011
    31 May 2015 was the transfer date of services from the Anglia franchise to MTR Crossrail.
     
  21. DynamicSpirit

    DynamicSpirit Established Member

    Messages:
    3,843
    Joined:
    12 Apr 2012
    Sure. And personally I'm also not impressed at the delays, and certainly not at how late the problems came to light. But at the same time I'm not going to stoop to going around calling people 'numpties' because they came in about 20% over budget and maybe 2 years late on a 10 year project that must have required skill levels to organise far in excess of anything that I possess (or, I'm guessing, almost anyone on this forum possesses).

    And actually, although I'm not impressed by the delays, I am pretty impressed that a project that is so complicated can get built - and in a couple of year's time - once it is running and has had a year or so to iron out any initial technical problems, I suspect we will all be justified in feeling pretty impressed at what will have been achieved.
     
  22. hwl

    hwl Established Member

    Messages:
    4,118
    Joined:
    5 Feb 2012
    No - The phasing of stuff through the core will the same as originally planned just very delayed
    Original Plan:
    Phase 2 May '18 Paddington - Heathrow (with 345)
    Phase 3 Dec '18 Abbey Wood - Paddington
    Phase 4 May '19 Shenfield - Paddington
    Phase 5 Dec '19 Paddington - Reading with 345s and running through Paddington

    The current plan
    Phase 2B Paddington - Heathrow (with 345)- When trains and Heathrow ready [2a was Heathrow with 360s and a few 7car 345 to H&H)
    Phase 5A Paddington - Reading with 345s - Dec '19
    Phase 3 Oct 2020 to March 2021, Bond Street won't be part of it which will cause issues for further phases (evacuation capacities) 12 tph core
    Phase 4 = Phase 3 + X months, x = 4-6? 24 tph core
    Phase 5 = Phase 4 + X months, x = 4-6?

    Time between phases 4/5 is still need to allow LST platform work and lengthen 7 car units to 9 car.

    Phase 5A is a major revenue win for TfL as lots of the other phases involve existing TfL users so aren't that lucrative in the first year of operations.
     
    Last edited: 31 Aug 2019
  23. The Ham

    The Ham Established Member

    Messages:
    6,041
    Joined:
    6 Jul 2012
    Not only that, but the usage of it would likely be higher than predicted so at to cover the extra costs incurred.

    It may not be 20% more people, but given that 20% more people would probably only add a small amount to the running costs, it probably doesn't need to be that high to cover the extra costs.
     
  24. samuelmorris

    samuelmorris Established Member

    Messages:
    3,768
    Joined:
    18 Jul 2013
    Location:
    Brentwood, Essex
    A bit pedantic, but "the bit between Liverpool Street and Shenfield" is a bit false because that is simply the existing metro service that's run on that line for decades, the only relation it has to Crossrail is the use of the Class 345 rolling stock. Since they still only run half-and-half between those and 315s (though more off-peak), I wouldn't consider even that complete either. There are good reasons why the new fleet hasn't taken over yet, but nonetheless, to state Crossrail is already running on that line is basically meaningless.

    Hwl's estimates are the current thinking. If I were to offer my conjecture I would hazard a guess at Autumn 2021 for Phase 3, Spring 2022 for Phase 4 and Bond Street, Christmas 2022 for Phase 5 and 24tph core operation.
     
  25. MarlowDonkey

    MarlowDonkey Member

    Messages:
    807
    Joined:
    4 Apr 2013
    That's more or less the same in the west out from Paddington, with the added complication that the Heathrow branch has non standard signalling. The effect of this is that the Crossrail trains aren't yet able to go through the tunnels to Heathrow and there's shuffling of stock so that the recently introduced GWR 387s can take over the Heathrow express which enables the non-standard signalling and train control on the Heathrow branch to be phased out along with the trains that used to run the service.
     
  26. Mitchell Hurd

    Mitchell Hurd Member

    Messages:
    621
    Joined:
    28 Oct 2017
    Right, thanks. :) I've got to be in the mood to do the whole route so I may just go from Didcot Parkway down to Ealing Broadway and catch the Elizabeth line from there (maybe quicker to do Paddington but the 387's don't require seat reservations) but I'd have thought Ealing Broadway is possibly a little less busy in the day time than Paddington.
     
  27. reddragon

    reddragon Member

    Messages:
    803
    Joined:
    24 Mar 2016
    Location:
    Churn (closed)
    It isn't actually as complicated as it seems because everything is broken down into manageable segments.

    The problems were more as a result of some unfortunate gaps in the structure of crossrail and some misdirection of focus.

    Crossrail and HS2 have used a degree of arrogance in their parliamentary powers to avoid third party liaison which has resulted in unsurmountable issues arising late in the contract causing considerable delay and cost. This was worsened by the fact that TfL were going through a protracted restructuring distracting those who would have stepped up and challenged crossrail heavily otherwise.

    Added to a notional but I'll conceived cut in budget that was undeliverable and a hard deadline that was too short nobody could have delivered this on time or on budget.

    We have also deskilled our infrastructure clients to a point that they are unable to direct such projects in a way that is needed.

    Add to this Brexit, which has had a marked effect on the availablity of the right skills as EU citizens look for more welcoming places to work then you create the perfect storm for failure.

    I am actually less confident for HS2 for these reasons as I am seeing the situation repeat but with worsening resource and skills available in a deteriorating climate.
     
  28. Taunton

    Taunton Established Member

    Messages:
    3,882
    Joined:
    1 Aug 2013
    Further, there seems to be no attempt now to Get On With It, just wiffle-waffle reports up to the Mayor. I pass the line most days and progress is now glacial. Custom House DLR station, the one at Excel, closed all of 2017 for incorporating Crossrail (although nothing much done for the first nine months, it was mostly done in the autumn) and looked 90% complete on rebuilding. Well two years later it still looks 90% complete, with scaffolding still up, and just once or twice have a handful of operatives been around. The plant yard near there has substantial hired plant which just seems to sit unused for months, doubtless nice revenue for somebody. And I have just once seen a Crossrail passenger train on the line there, no trace of hard testing. Same at other points along the line. Is anybody working overtime/weekends to get it finished?
     
  29. Via Bank

    Via Bank Member

    Messages:
    616
    Joined:
    28 Mar 2010
    Location:
    London
    Weekends and overtime, particularly from permanent way engineers, does not necessarily make for a safe or complete job.
     
  30. moggie

    moggie Member

    Messages:
    374
    Joined:
    2 Jan 2010
    Location:
    West Midlands
    The Heathrow Branch isn't exactly non-standard signalling. GW-ATP is standard fit on the route. The issue is the poorly thought through migration strategy fro GW-ATP to ETCS in so far as Crossrail discovered far too late in the day the practical difficulties their signalling strategy for the branch introduced. The GW main line 'bridge' between the ATP and ETCS is enhanced TPWS fitment. CR failed to understand the consequence of not having TPWS to act as the system migration 'bridge' together with the system incompatibility problems during transition testing. Hardly surprising given the pickle they've got themselves into with system integration in the core central sections. Lile all these things, they're having to learn and adapt fast.
     

Share This Page