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Crossrail opening delayed (opening date not yet known)

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Non Multi

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That's a lot of cameras! ;)
You say this - as well as the new cameras for the 345s, there's new cameras for the platform CCTV, up to 2 per post and there's loads of new posts at each station, then there's more new cameras on the buildings and the footbridges/subways. Finally there's also the existing dispatch cameras for the GWR Turbos where video monitors are used. So yeah, that's a lot of cameras!
 
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kevin_roche

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A new update on progress was published yesterday on the Crossrail website.The highlights are:

Progress over the last three months includes:
  • Close headway, multi-train testing commenced on 8 June 2019 as part of the Dynamic Testing phase
  • Crossrail Ltd has established a co-located joint team of senior technical experts from Bombardier, Siemens and Crossrail to drive forward a coordinated approach to Dynamic Testing of the train and signalling systems
  • Testing and commissioning activity is taking place at all central section stations except at Bond Street where fit-out and systems installation continues
  • Fit-out of the tunnels is almost complete, Crossrail Ltd will shortly hand over the completed shafts and portals starting with Victoria Dock Portal
  • Fifteen new class 345 trains are in operation with TfL Rail on the eastern and western parts of the route, building reliability and achieving a high standard of performance
  • The first nine-car (full-length) train is now in passenger service from Hayes & Harlington to Paddington
  • Network Rail has awarded contracts for the construction of the remaining new or enhanced ticket halls at Southall, Hayes & Harlington, West Drayton, Ealing Broadway, West Ealing and Acton Main Line stations.

Unfortunately it doesn't appear to give any extra information than was given in this month's report by Mark Wild to the London Assembly Transport Committee.
 

samuelmorris

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A new update on progress was published yesterday on the Crossrail website.The highlights are:



Unfortunately it doesn't appear to give any extra information than was given in this month's report by Mark Wild to the London Assembly Transport Committee.
The close headway milestone was a couple of months ago, it'd be nice for them to tell us a bit more about how that's going, as that's the most concerning part of the scheme. With station fit-out we have a tangible view on how far they've got simply by how complete the stations look, but the train software testing is an unpredictable amount of time to completion, it could be a couple of months before they get it sorted, it could be a few years.

The 'achieving a high standard of performance' is a bit questionable re: the rolling stock reliability. Yes they are improving but they are still well below par even compared to other troublesome new rolling stock. Statements like that make me question the validity of other reports of 'progressing well' that we don't have our own information to make a judgment on.
 

matt_world2004

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  • Network Rail has awarded contracts for the construction of the remaining new or enhanced ticket halls at Southall, Hayes & Harlington, West Drayton, Ealing Broadway, West Ealing and Acton Main Line stations.
    [*]
Considering the stations were supposed to be finished december 2017 that's terrible
 

Antman

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You're supposed to be saying how wonderful it all is. How good they are at spending our money and how brilliant it is to have the extra capacity. Being years late, with currently unreliable trains, massively over budget and having had to sell the entire fleet of 345s and lease them back. But people will still trust politicians (both Boris and Khan) with our money.

It's got local politicians, the DFT, Network Rail, contractors galore and is anyone surprised it's a mess ?
 

kevin_roche

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The 'achieving a high standard of performance' is a bit questionable re: the rolling stock reliability. Yes they are improving but they are still well below par even compared to other troublesome new rolling stock. Statements like that make me question the validity of other reports of 'progressing well' that we don't have our own information to make a judgement on.

I would really like to see the latest reports from Jacobs. They tend to be more realistic and do report the real issues, even if they get heavily redacted. Unfortunately the latest one made public was dated 24 June and was for the period 28 April 2019 to 25 May 2019, so its quite out of date now. I think everyone at TfL is on holiday as there is very few updates on their website.

The latest on the software in the overview there said:

SIGNALLING and ROLLING STOCK SOFTWARE INTEGRATION

The production of a robust dynamic testing schedule can only be confirmed once the requirements of both Rolling Stock and Signalling have been incorporated; this schedule integration exercise continues. It is intended that agreements on signalling functionality and availability prior to Trial Running will be reached between CRL and Siemens, to allow the development of a fully integrated dynamic testing schedule by the end of June 2019. CRL’s target date for incorporation into the DCS is 2 July 2019.However, the Siemens proposals must be aligned and integrated with BT’s software delivery plans, in order for the dynamic testing schedule and DCS to be considered truly robust and deliverable. This is one of the most urgent priorities for CRL in the finalisation of the DCS and the securing of the future assured delivery of the Crossrail Programme.

And in more detail in the section on Phase 3:

Despite the delay to software development, CRL’s programme retains a [redacted] date of [redacted] with a [redacted] date of the end of [redacted] CRL has been able to do this by identifying the minimum numbers of drivers (62) required to be trained by start of service, which is fewer than previouslyenvisaged. This reduces the training duration by 5-6 weeks to 9 weeks. More importantly, CRL and MTR-C are discussing starting driver training when configuration Y1.2 is stable, rather than Y1.3, which has been assumed up to now. This means that drivertraining would start at a similar time (late September 2019) to that proposed in Period 1. We recognise that CRL is prioritising Stage 2-2 Opening as soon as possible. [redacted] However, we believe the issues will take longer to resolve than the [redacted]

We know things have moved on since then and it would be nice to know if its in the right or wrong direction.
 

Railwaysceptic

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. . . . But people will still trust politicians (both Boris and Khan) with our money.
I'm not convinced many people do trust them with our money. Fewer people vote in elections than before and respect for career politicians has never been lower.
 

kevin_roche

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There is a new article, by Mark Wild, on the London First website which reports progress and confirms the Crossrail plans.

So much relies on the next six months. We’ve now got 120 key project milestones, many of which need to be achieved by the end of this year, and we also need to complete testing of the train and signalling system. We’re working hard with our Tier One contractors to help their station delivery teams finish the job safely and as quickly as they can so they move on to other projects and we can integrate the nine new stations with the rest of the railway

The start of Trial Running will be our priority in the first quarter of 2020 – running test trains to a timetable to build reliability and fix any remaining software bugs. Trial Running will enable us to provide more certainty around the central section opening date once we start to fully test the railway. Then we will have more certainty about when the full railway will open – connecting central London to the eastern section to Shenfield in Essex and then, finally, the western section to Reading and Heathrow.

While we acknowledge there’s still so much to do, it’s important to highlight the progress we’ve achieved so far:
  • We began our multi-train testing in the tunnels in June with trains running close to each other at higher speeds
  • Testing and commissioning activity is taking place at all central section stations except at Bond Street where fit-out and systems installation continues
  • Fit-out of the tunnels is almost complete, and very soon we’ll soon begin hand over of the completed shafts and portals
  • We’ve got a joint team of senior technical experts from Bombardier, Siemens and Crossrail working together to quickly find solutions to integrating the train and signalling systems
  • Fifteen new class 345 trains are in operation with TfL Rail on the eastern and western parts of the route, building reliability and achieving a high standard of performance
  • The first nine-car (full-length) train is now in passenger service from Paddington to Hayes & Harlington
 
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Kevin quotes Mark Wild, on the London First website, who reports progress, including ...
  • We’ve got a joint team of senior technical experts from Bombardier, Siemens and Crossrail working together to quickly find solutions to integrating the train and signalling systems (my emphasis)

Isn't it wonderful how a carefully-glossed phrase can provide comfort?

Are they sure that they are going "to quickly find" solutions?

Am I being too cynical in fearing that they might actually be working together "to desperately seek" solutions?
 

kevin_roche

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Isn't it wonderful how a carefully-glossed phrase can provide comfort?

Are they sure that they are going "to quickly find" solutions?

Am I being too cynical in fearing that they might actually be working together "to desperately seek" solutions?

I really want to see some more recent Jacobs Project Representative reports. They are much more realistic about these kinds of things.
 

mrmartin

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Anyone know which report they are mentioning here? Is it a new one? Struggling to find it.

https://www.building.co.uk/news/cro...-at-pair-building-bond-street/5101322.article

Crossrail bosses demanded change at pair building Bond Street

June board minutes lay bare railway's frustration with Costain and Skanska on late-running station

Crossrail’s frustration with the two firms behind its hugely delayed Bond Street station has broken out into the open with the railway’s board calling for "expected and necessary" leadership changes at the Costain/Skanska joint venture building the scheme.

The station is so far behind schedule that earlier this year, Crossrail chief executive Mark Wild was forced to admit it would not be ready even for the revised opening schedule – set for between October next year and March 2021.
 

kevin_roche

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Anyone know which report they are mentioning here? Is it a new one? Struggling to find it.

https://www.building.co.uk/news/cro...-at-pair-building-bond-street/5101322.article

Possibly this document. http://content.tfl.gov.uk/crl-board-minutes-20-june-2019.pdf

The changes made since the last presentation to the Board on 25 April2019 including the new leadership introduced by CRL, consisting of a new Senior Project Manager, Senior Commercial Manager and Senior Construction Manager. In addition, a Principal Delivery Engineer was scheduled to start on 24 June 2019. Costain had also appointed a new CEO. The Board NOTED that further change in leadership within CSJV was necessary and expected. An Enabling Board had also been established to facilitate progress and remove challenges. Other changes had also been made to address concerns around productivity, project controlsand to respond to escalated issues;
 

KingJ

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Crossrail have put up a video clip on YouTube of dynamic testing going on at Stepney Green Junction. From the description;
Crossrail continues to make good progress with Dynamic Testing of the train and signalling systems. Watch as two Class 345 trains undertake close headway testing through Stepney Green junction in east London.

 

silverfoxcc

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How come complete numpties get put in charge of things like this..HS2 as well. These people are not even a joke, yet i will bet they will get knighthoods at the end of this farce.
 

The Ham

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Crossrail have put up a video clip on YouTube of dynamic testing going on at Stepney Green Junction. From the description;



At 0:09 front of the first unit goes past at 0:46 the second goes past.

I assume that is much closer than the service will actually be running at, other than for one train departing a station and the next approaching. Is that correct?
 

DynamicSpirit

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How come complete numpties get put in charge of things like this..HS2 as well. These people are not even a joke, yet i will bet they will get knighthoods at the end of this farce.

'Numpties?'

So I guess if they put you in charge of this complex 10-year-ish project involving thousands of different sub-projects that all need to be managed, coordinated with each other, made sure that small number of people who have the right skills are available at the correct time along with all the equipment they need, etc. etc., you personally would be able to get it done absolutely perfectly without any problems whatsoever, right?
 

Mitchell Hurd

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Hello there. I'm a bit confused here as the Reading to Paddington section starts from December 2019 but I'm not sure about the bit from Paddington towards central London.

I believe the bit between Liverpool Street and Shenfield has been in operation since June 2017.

I'm guessing it's the whole Reading to Shenfield that opens between (as the thread says) October 2020 and March 2021?
 

Taunton

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'Numpties?'

So I guess if they put you in charge of this complex 10-year-ish project involving thousands of different sub-projects that all need to be managed, coordinated with each other, made sure that small number of people who have the right skills are available at the correct time along with all the equipment they need, etc. etc.,
If all that had actually happened we would indeed be impressed. But it didn't. So we're not.
 

DynamicSpirit

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If all that had actually happened we would indeed be impressed. But it didn't. So we're not.

Sure. And personally I'm also not impressed at the delays, and certainly not at how late the problems came to light. But at the same time I'm not going to stoop to going around calling people 'numpties' because they came in about 20% over budget and maybe 2 years late on a 10 year project that must have required skill levels to organise far in excess of anything that I possess (or, I'm guessing, almost anyone on this forum possesses).

And actually, although I'm not impressed by the delays, I am pretty impressed that a project that is so complicated can get built - and in a couple of year's time - once it is running and has had a year or so to iron out any initial technical problems, I suspect we will all be justified in feeling pretty impressed at what will have been achieved.
 

hwl

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Hello there. I'm a bit confused here as the Reading to Paddington section starts from December 2019 but I'm not sure about the bit from Paddington towards central London.

I believe the bit between Liverpool Street and Shenfield has been in operation since June 2017.

I'm guessing it's the whole Reading to Shenfield that opens between (as the thread says) October 2020 and March 2021?

No - The phasing of stuff through the core will the same as originally planned just very delayed
Original Plan:
Phase 2 May '18 Paddington - Heathrow (with 345)
Phase 3 Dec '18 Abbey Wood - Paddington
Phase 4 May '19 Shenfield - Paddington
Phase 5 Dec '19 Paddington - Reading with 345s and running through Paddington

The current plan
Phase 2B Paddington - Heathrow (with 345)- When trains and Heathrow ready [2a was Heathrow with 360s and a few 7car 345 to H&H)
Phase 5A Paddington - Reading with 345s - Dec '19
Phase 3 Oct 2020 to March 2021, Bond Street won't be part of it which will cause issues for further phases (evacuation capacities) 12 tph core
Phase 4 = Phase 3 + X months, x = 4-6? 24 tph core
Phase 5 = Phase 4 + X months, x = 4-6?

Time between phases 4/5 is still need to allow LST platform work and lengthen 7 car units to 9 car.

Phase 5A is a major revenue win for TfL as lots of the other phases involve existing TfL users so aren't that lucrative in the first year of operations.
 
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The Ham

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Sure. And personally I'm also not impressed at the delays, and certainly not at how late the problems came to light. But at the same time I'm not going to stoop to going around calling people 'numpties' because they came in about 20% over budget and maybe 2 years late on a 10 year project that must have required skill levels to organise far in excess of anything that I possess (or, I'm guessing, almost anyone on this forum possesses).

And actually, although I'm not impressed by the delays, I am pretty impressed that a project that is so complicated can get built - and in a couple of year's time - once it is running and has had a year or so to iron out any initial technical problems, I suspect we will all be justified in feeling pretty impressed at what will have been achieved.

Not only that, but the usage of it would likely be higher than predicted so at to cover the extra costs incurred.

It may not be 20% more people, but given that 20% more people would probably only add a small amount to the running costs, it probably doesn't need to be that high to cover the extra costs.
 

samuelmorris

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Hello there. I'm a bit confused here as the Reading to Paddington section starts from December 2019 but I'm not sure about the bit from Paddington towards central London.

I believe the bit between Liverpool Street and Shenfield has been in operation since June 2017.

I'm guessing it's the whole Reading to Shenfield that opens between (as the thread says) October 2020 and March 2021?
A bit pedantic, but "the bit between Liverpool Street and Shenfield" is a bit false because that is simply the existing metro service that's run on that line for decades, the only relation it has to Crossrail is the use of the Class 345 rolling stock. Since they still only run half-and-half between those and 315s (though more off-peak), I wouldn't consider even that complete either. There are good reasons why the new fleet hasn't taken over yet, but nonetheless, to state Crossrail is already running on that line is basically meaningless.

Hwl's estimates are the current thinking. If I were to offer my conjecture I would hazard a guess at Autumn 2021 for Phase 3, Spring 2022 for Phase 4 and Bond Street, Christmas 2022 for Phase 5 and 24tph core operation.
 

MarlowDonkey

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A bit pedantic, but "the bit between Liverpool Street and Shenfield" is a bit false because that is simply the existing metro service that's run on that line for decades, the only relation it has to Crossrail is the use of the Class 345 rolling stock.

That's more or less the same in the west out from Paddington, with the added complication that the Heathrow branch has non standard signalling. The effect of this is that the Crossrail trains aren't yet able to go through the tunnels to Heathrow and there's shuffling of stock so that the recently introduced GWR 387s can take over the Heathrow express which enables the non-standard signalling and train control on the Heathrow branch to be phased out along with the trains that used to run the service.
 

Mitchell Hurd

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No - The phasing of stuff through the core will the same as originally planned just very delayed
Original Plan:
Phase 2 May '18 Paddington - Heathrow (with 345)
Phase 3 Dec '18 Abbey Wood - Paddington
Phase 4 May '19 Shenfield - Paddington
Phase 5 Dec '19 Paddington - Reading with 345s and running through Paddington

The current plan
Phase 2B Paddington - Heathrow (with 345)- When trains and Heathrow ready [2a was Heathrow with 360s and a few 7car 345 to H&H)
Phase 5A Paddington - Reading with 345s - Dec '19
Phase 3 Oct 2020 to March 2021, Bond Street won't be part of it which will cause issues for further phases (evacuation capacities) 12 tph core
Phase 4 = Phase 3 + X months, x = 4-6? 24 tph core
Phase 5 = Phase 4 + X months, x = 4-6?

Time between phases 4/5 is still need to allow LST platform work and lengthen 7 car units to 9 car.

Phase 5A is a major revenue win for TfL as lots of the other phases involve existing TfL users so aren't that lucrative in the first year of operations.

Right, thanks. :) I've got to be in the mood to do the whole route so I may just go from Didcot Parkway down to Ealing Broadway and catch the Elizabeth line from there (maybe quicker to do Paddington but the 387's don't require seat reservations) but I'd have thought Ealing Broadway is possibly a little less busy in the day time than Paddington.
 

reddragon

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Sure. And personally I'm also not impressed at the delays, and certainly not at how late the problems came to light. But at the same time I'm not going to stoop to going around calling people 'numpties' because they came in about 20% over budget and maybe 2 years late on a 10 year project that must have required skill levels to organise far in excess of anything that I possess (or, I'm guessing, almost anyone on this forum possesses).

And actually, although I'm not impressed by the delays, I am pretty impressed that a project that is so complicated can get built - and in a couple of year's time - once it is running and has had a year or so to iron out any initial technical problems, I suspect we will all be justified in feeling pretty impressed at what will have been achieved.
It isn't actually as complicated as it seems because everything is broken down into manageable segments.

The problems were more as a result of some unfortunate gaps in the structure of crossrail and some misdirection of focus.

Crossrail and HS2 have used a degree of arrogance in their parliamentary powers to avoid third party liaison which has resulted in unsurmountable issues arising late in the contract causing considerable delay and cost. This was worsened by the fact that TfL were going through a protracted restructuring distracting those who would have stepped up and challenged crossrail heavily otherwise.

Added to a notional but I'll conceived cut in budget that was undeliverable and a hard deadline that was too short nobody could have delivered this on time or on budget.

We have also deskilled our infrastructure clients to a point that they are unable to direct such projects in a way that is needed.

Add to this Brexit, which has had a marked effect on the availablity of the right skills as EU citizens look for more welcoming places to work then you create the perfect storm for failure.

I am actually less confident for HS2 for these reasons as I am seeing the situation repeat but with worsening resource and skills available in a deteriorating climate.
 

Taunton

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Sure. And personally I'm also not impressed at the delays, and certainly not at how late the problems came to light.
Further, there seems to be no attempt now to Get On With It, just wiffle-waffle reports up to the Mayor. I pass the line most days and progress is now glacial. Custom House DLR station, the one at Excel, closed all of 2017 for incorporating Crossrail (although nothing much done for the first nine months, it was mostly done in the autumn) and looked 90% complete on rebuilding. Well two years later it still looks 90% complete, with scaffolding still up, and just once or twice have a handful of operatives been around. The plant yard near there has substantial hired plant which just seems to sit unused for months, doubtless nice revenue for somebody. And I have just once seen a Crossrail passenger train on the line there, no trace of hard testing. Same at other points along the line. Is anybody working overtime/weekends to get it finished?
 

moggie

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That's more or less the same in the west out from Paddington, with the added complication that the Heathrow branch has non standard signalling. The effect of this is that the Crossrail trains aren't yet able to go through the tunnels to Heathrow and there's shuffling of stock so that the recently introduced GWR 387s can take over the Heathrow express which enables the non-standard signalling and train control on the Heathrow branch to be phased out along with the trains that used to run the service.
The Heathrow Branch isn't exactly non-standard signalling. GW-ATP is standard fit on the route. The issue is the poorly thought through migration strategy fro GW-ATP to ETCS in so far as Crossrail discovered far too late in the day the practical difficulties their signalling strategy for the branch introduced. The GW main line 'bridge' between the ATP and ETCS is enhanced TPWS fitment. CR failed to understand the consequence of not having TPWS to act as the system migration 'bridge' together with the system incompatibility problems during transition testing. Hardly surprising given the pickle they've got themselves into with system integration in the core central sections. Lile all these things, they're having to learn and adapt fast.
 
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