Crossrail opening delayed (opening date not yet known)

[Ronnie268]

This is easyJet’s new A320s. A tried and tested design. Whilst 5 days is relatively quick, it is not unusual. The crew know it, the ground crew know it, and once it has completed its factory tests and is passed good for service, it can go into service straight away. Iberia’s 2nd A350 was 10 days from first test flight to being in service.

But, notably, airliners are subjected to a much more rigorous testing from maiden flight first to being in service. Almost all of the testing is with the craft itself, rather than its interaction with the infrastructure it relies on.

Perhaps a better railway example was the Class 66s - after the first few were tested, a good number of them were taken off the ship at Newport and on revenue trains within hours.

I wonder also if the testing of aircraft is much simpler, as there is plenty of 'network' capacity, whereas in general on the rail network, there is a limit to how much testing can be done at any time

 

[Taunton]

This is easyJet’s new A320s. A tried and tested design. Whilst 5 days is relatively quick, it is not unusual. The crew know it, the ground crew know it, and once it has completed its factory tests and is passed good for service, it can go into service straight away.

But as I understand it the Class 345s have been operated by crews and maintenance staff for 18 months now, and we are down to the tail end of deliveries. Whatever can still not be "out of the box" with them?

 

[hwl]

But as I understand it the Class 345s have been operated by crews and maintenance staff for 18 months now, and we are down to the tail end of deliveries. Whatever can still not be "out of the box" with them?

Software is still a work in progress.

 

[ScotGG]

What is the status of Plumstead depot? It doesn't get much mention but is a big facility. About 15 tracks?

 

[coppercapped]

But as I understand it the Class 345s have been operated by crews and maintenance staff for 18 months now, and we are down to the tail end of deliveries. Whatever can still not be "out of the box" with them?

Basically - they still don't work reliably.

The Miles per Technical Incident for Period 3 for the 7 coach long trains was published in the September Modern Railways. This was 2173 miles and the Moving Annual Average was only 1316 Miles per Technical Incident.

This does not give a high degree of confidence that the train would even get through the tunnel without having a hiccup (or worse) causing a three minute or longer delay.

Reliable trains have a MAA MTIN of at least 50,000 with the best at 100,000miles or over.

All three of the new train fleets - Classes 345, 700 and 800 have a long way to go before they reach the levels of the Bletchley maintained Class 321s.

 

[samuelmorris]

Indeed it does not, but even though it's certainly attainable and more stock should push those sorts of figures, 100k is more the exception than the norm - it's basically the domain of the Desiro UK and very little else (the three LM subclasses posting 80k, 100k and 125k and the 444s and 450s both posting 100k, though 360/1 are below 40k and the 360/2 are around 20k) - With the exception of the 379s at 70-90, Electrostars top out at 50-60k for the 375/8, 375/9 and 357, with 377s posting 30-40k in essentially all subclasses.
As they work shorter distance services, the metro Electrostars all post 10-15k MAA, which is the level I'd expect 345s to eventually settle at. Ideally higher due to the frequency of the services they operate, but given the complexities of PED integration, three separate signalling systems, ATO and so on, I think 15-20k is really about as good as it's going to get. You'll never see figures like those posted by units that run long non-stop runs like Waterloo to Basingstoke or Euston to Milton Keynes.

The 345s are slowly improving, their MAA in January was as low as 412, and only a couple of months ago it was still only 1000. It'll just take a bit longer to be what you'd call 'acceptable'.

Also worth noting, a figure of just 9200 won GNER's HSTs a golden spanner back in 2006. What were the rest of them like?

 

[si404]

Hence I suspect they will have to run a reduced GW timetable instead.

Yes - they wouldn't be running an XR timetable on the GWML reliefs until the core is open for it. But, the handover to TfL Rail from GW of the Reading services could still be done next December, even if TfL Rail (or however they brand it at that point) have to use 7-car 345s (or the trains currently doing that service) to run it.

Which gives TfL the dosh when it expected to get it.

 

[hwl]

Indeed it does not, but even though it's certainly attainable and more stock should push those sorts of figures, 100k is more the exception than the norm - it's basically the domain of the Desiro UK and very little else (the three LM subclasses posting 80k, 100k and 125k and the 444s and 450s both posting 100k, though 360/1 are below 40k and the 360/2 are around 20k) - With the exception of the 379s at 70-90, Electrostars top out at 50-60k for the 375/8, 375/9 and 357, with 377s posting 30-40k in essentially all subclasses.
As they work shorter distance services, the metro Electrostars all post 10-15k MAA, which is the level I'd expect 345s to eventually settle at. Ideally higher due to the frequency of the services they operate, but given the complexities of PED integration, three separate signalling systems, ATO and so on, I think 15-20k is really about as good as it's going to get. You'll never see figures like those posted by units that run long non-stop runs like Waterloo to Basingstoke or Euston to Milton Keynes.

The 345s are slowly improving, their MAA in January was as low as 412, and only a couple of months ago it was still only 1000. It'll just take a bit longer to be what you'd call 'acceptable'.

Also worth noting, a figure of just 9200 won GNER's HSTs a golden spanner back in 2006. What were the rest of them like?

Also worth remembering that when there is problem on 345 they send round a fitter and engineer to investigate guaranteeing a delay of more than 3 minutes. When a problem door just lock itself out of use and you keep going the MTIN will improve...
It also seem that the focus is on getting the 9car software sorted (Roger's MTIN higher but not in service) so it looks like they aren't doing much to the 7car units which were meant to come out of service next summer anyway.

 

[theageofthetra]

Software is still a work in progress.

Is that why the units stored at Abbey Wood have the covers of the cab dashboard off?

 

[hwl]

Yes - they wouldn't be running an XR timetable on the GWML reliefs until the core is open for it. But, the handover to TfL Rail from GW of the Reading services could still be done next December, even if TfL Rail (or however they brand it at that point) have to use 7-car 345s (or the trains currently doing that service) to run it.

Which gives TfL the dosh when it expected to get it.

H&H longer bay platform sign off can't be far away which should see 9 car. With a reduced GWR service level they will need 9car trains.

 

[swt_passenger]

What is the status of Plumstead depot? It doesn't get much mention but is a big facility. About 15 tracks?

I think that Plumstead is shared between the Crossrail infrastructure maintenance train base and stabling. The TWA application mentioned stabling for only 8 trains. About 40 trains can fit in Old Oak Common, that doesn’t leave many over for the various secondary locations.

 

[si404]

H&H longer bay platform sign off can't be far away which should see 9 car. With a reduced GWR service level they will need 9car trains.

Sorry, I meant the current GW level, not reduced that you suggested (no idea why it would have to be reduced - there's room at Paddington for the current service, after all!).

And it was your OP that suggested 9-car 345s would be problematic. If they aren't, great!

 

[hwl]

Sorry, I meant the current GW level, not reduced that you suggested (no idea why it would have to be reduced - there's room at Paddington for the current service, after all!).

And it was your OP that suggested 9-car 345s would be problematic. If they aren't, great!

Future Crossrail reduced to currentish GWR level. 9car will be an issue in P14 at Paddington hence my problematic comment.

 

[Taunton]

Well the grand evidence from the Top Team at TfL and Crossrail took place yesterday at the London Assembly.

Assembly : "Why has this happened?"
Top Team "... er ... Operational Difficulties".
Assembly : "Oh well, that's OK then. Lunch, anyone?".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-45435793

What a waste of time.

 

[Journeyman]

Also worth noting, a figure of just 9200 won GNER's HSTs a golden spanner back in 2006. What were the rest of them like?

I've seen some recent HST figures as part of some work I was doing. Most fleets are around 10000, apart from GWR which is about 5000. Doesn't bode well for ScotRail.

 

[plcd1]

Well the grand evidence from the Top Team at TfL and Crossrail took place yesterday at the London Assembly.

Assembly : "Why has this happened?"
Top Team "... er ... Operational Difficulties".
Assembly : "Oh well, that's OK then. Lunch, anyone?".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-45435793

What a waste of time.

I don't think that is a fair commentary at all. There was reference to several issues and a sequence of events that led to the delay decision. OK it was not in enormous technical detail but you will never get that in an emergency session squashed into a full Plenary meeting of the Assembly. Inevitably several of the questions were political or irrelevant rather than technical but that's politicians for you. Also noteworthy that Terry Morgan was there and is *still* Crossrail Ltd Chairman despite those on here who insist that he isn't.

TfL and Crossrail are back in front of the Assembly Transport Cttee next week on Crossrail matters so more detail may emerge then but don't hold your breath.

 

[Taunton]

Also noteworthy that Terry Morgan was there and is *still* Crossrail Ltd Chairman despite those on here who insist that he isn't.

He took over as Chairman of HS2 on 1 August. It seems he has 2 jobs at present.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...ints-sir-terry-morgan-as-new-hs2-ltd-chairman

 

[Esker-pades]

He took over as Chairman of HS2 on 1 August. It seems he has 2 jobs at present.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...ints-sir-terry-morgan-as-new-hs2-ltd-chairman

He seems to be taking careers advice from Boris Johnson.

 

[James H]

The full London Assembly session can be seen here:

 

[Ronnie268]

The full London Assembly session can be seen here:

When does the Crossrail bit start?

 

[plcd1]

When does the Crossrail bit start?

About 16 minutes in - it's the first item after the usual formalities. Lasts 1 hour.

 

[Jpeg]

Interestingly just after the crossrail discussion in the break you can overhear them discussing the thermocline of truth mentioned in London reconnections and to read the blog haha.

 

[Dstock7080]

Interesting talk to LURS this evening from Simon Bennett, formerly Head of Learning Legacy, Crossrail who said that even with the “autumn 2019” delay they expected all sections, core/Heathrow/Reading etc to be open by the original ‘December 2019’.

 

[jellybaby]

Some commentary on today's London Assembly transport committee at https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-45496269

Londoners will be pleased to learn 95% of stations are complete and all could have been finished by the end of the year apart from Bond Street.

But it was also revealed there is not yet a train Crossrail can do signal system testing on. And that is why the project has been delayed.​

 

[jyte]

Hmm...

Why is Bond Street running so far behind? I read that the lifts were being problematic but that was about 9 months ago and it was my understanding that those issues had all been resolved?

 

[absolutelymilk]

But it was also revealed there is not yet a train Crossrail can do signal system testing on. And that is why the project has been delayed.

I don't understand - there weren't any spare trains? Or they haven't got them to work with the signalling yet?

 

[Taunton]

I don't understand - there weren't any spare trains? Or they haven't got them to work with the signalling yet?

As I understand it, Bombardier have virtually finished production of the 70 Class 345 units, and are moving on to other orders.

How can the production run have been run right through to completion when they haven't started testing on its basic signal system?

 

[samuelmorris]

As I understand it, Bombardier have virtually finished production of the 70 Class 345 units, and are moving on to other orders.

How can the production run have been run right through to completion when they haven't started testing on its basic signal system?

Really? Where on earth are they putting them all? That seems remarkably early considering even before delays half of them weren't due to enter service until between 8 and 15 months' time...

 

[matt_world2004]

Could it be that the fault is with the signal system and or trains that make it unavailable for testing.

 

[Mikey C]

I thought they had a unit based at Abbey Wood, surely that has operated into the tunnels on test runs, presumably using the new signalling?