Crossrail opening delayed until sometime in 2021

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by gavin, 31 Aug 2018.

  1. Chris M

    Chris M Member

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    While Abbey Wood to Paddington is self contained, that stretch of railway has no depots so you need a working interface to at least one of Ilford and Old Oak Common.
     
  2. hwl

    hwl Established Member

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    CR got the civils spec right most of the time but M+E has been a disaster there seems to have been some assumption that the contractors would do more than they did in this regard and they could be a bit hands off...
     
  3. 306024

    306024 Established Member

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    Old Oak Common. 9 car units would be too long to maintain at Ilford, even a 7 car doesn’t quite fit in A shop.
     
  4. matt_world2004

    matt_world2004 Established Member

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    A big problem is for ventilation purposes there can not be more than a certain amount of trains in a. Certain section the signalling struggles with this
     
  5. Taunton

    Taunton Established Member

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    When the Blue Trains were introduced in Glasgow in 1961 (at a fraction of Crossrail cost) there were two separate networks, north and south, but only one depot, on the north side. Nothing prevented them moving the trains with a diesel loco across the about 2 mile freight link between the two halves.

    You just have to think how to achieve things. There are, alas, far too many nowadays, and the railway unfortunately seems to have more than its fair share of them, whose opening approach is "you can't". Did nobody ever watch the film Apollo 13?
     
    Last edited: 7 Jan 2020
  6. Nicholas Lewis

    Nicholas Lewis Member

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    Its the transition on the move thats the issue we know 345s work on plain vanilla 4 aspect signalling so as they would be ECS moves no drama stopping and swapping over signalling systems at the interface to get back to OOC. Targetting perfection is killing this project this industry used to be so brilliant and finding solutions and work arounds to run the service now its just a world of no can do
     
  7. Chris M

    Chris M Member

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    The issue here is the desire to use the "self-contained" Paddington-Abbey Wood section for testing without requiring a working interface between signalling systems. How do you propose to move trains from one or other of the depots to the core, which necessitates movements using at least two different signalling systems, without a working interface between the signalling systems?
    There is, of course, no issue at all with moving trains between the eastern and western operating sections not via the core, but that's not relevant here.
     
  8. sprunt

    sprunt Member

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    Nobody's going to run out of oxygen in a week if Crossrail don't implement your Heath Robinson solution though.
     
  9. Domh245

    Domh245 Established Member

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    A fudge now just means it needs fixing later. It's better (read, cheaper) to get it right once rather than implement a short term solution before then replacing it with the intended solution at a later date
     
  10. Nicholas Lewis

    Nicholas Lewis Member

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    another example of over complicating things. These are wide bore tunnels not tube size yet the Victoria line didn't have such restrictions and unless the line operator intervened it was possible to have two trains between stations on certain sections.
     
  11. Malcolmffc

    Malcolmffc Member

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    The Victoria line is of course famous for being unbearably hot
     
  12. samuelmorris

    samuelmorris Established Member

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    And also predating numerous current safety standards.
     
  13. hwl

    hwl Established Member

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    It was the last of the "old school" tunnels in the UK.
     
  14. kevin_roche

    kevin_roche Member

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    During the recent (December) Transport Committee meeting Mike Wild said that the transitions were now working. He did not say which transitions but it was in response to a question about Heathrow. I guess that is the ETCS to/from TPWS transitions, which were a late addition to requirements because of the lack of ETCS between Paddington and the Airport Junction, but it may be the TPWS to CBTC transitions too. He also said everyone was most worried about the transitions but they proved to be working.

    I believe the current software issues are bugs that have been found in the Siemens Trainguard MT software used in the central section as there was a mention I read that some also affected Hong Kong metro though they had not noticed that before they checked specifically for them.

    The timetable planning rules specify only two trains may be in any ventilation section at a time. A ventilation section appears to be a station platform or the section between any two stations. There are separate ventilation sections in each direction.
     
  15. Taunton

    Taunton Established Member

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    Well the JLE was outfitted with the latest state-of-the-art signalling in 1998-9, which never worked properly. So they went back, very quickly, to 2-aspect colour lights and tripcocks. Nobody whinged that it was not "current safety standards", because it worked perfectly well and perfectly safely. I wonder where the contingency plan for Crossrail if the signalling doesn't work is.
     
  16. samuelmorris

    samuelmorris Established Member

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    I'm not referring to the signalling system - I'm not aware of any argument that legacy signalling systems are inherently unsafe, just inefficient. The safety standards I'm referring to concern ventilation, evacuation routes, building materials etc.
     
  17. mrmartin

    mrmartin Member

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    Now summer 2021 according to crossrail. Seems to have been moved up from autumn to summer in the space a few days?
     
  18. stuu

    stuu Member

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    That only happened, at significant cost, because of the immovable deadline of 31 December 1999. If it weren't for that they may well have delayed the JLE until the signalling was working, and avoided the need to expensively resignal the line 10 years later.

    Spending the time (and money) getting it right will be worthwhile once it works
     
  19. kevin_roche

    kevin_roche Member

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    You are comparing apples and Oranges. Summer 2021 is what Crossrail are planning for. Autumn is what the TfL budget is planned around in case of any further delays, that's what recent headlines have focussed on. The press are not good at identifying the differences.
     
  20. MotorcycleAlan

    MotorcycleAlan Member

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  21. Taunton

    Taunton Established Member

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    This included having done absolutely nothing to complete Custom House station and take down the scaffolding in the 18 months since the big delay was announced.
     
  22. Nicholas Lewis

    Nicholas Lewis Member

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    Crossrail announcement here

    http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/art...al-london-expected-to-commence-in-summer-2021

    interesting that they are now anticpating full opening by mid 2022 which implies the addition of Shenfield and Reading services in Dec 2021 and May 2022 Timetable changes.

    Looking on the Crossrail webpage they have a link http://www.crossrail.co.uk/construction/our-plan-to-complete-the-elizabeth-line/ which currently returns an error 404 code! So much for the transparency over what the plans are.
     
  23. samuelmorris

    samuelmorris Established Member

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    I'd say it's a pretty good metaphor for the plans ;)
     
  24. kevin_roche

    kevin_roche Member

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  25. ijmad

    ijmad Established Member

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    Does this place a hard limit on the future potential for frequency improvements? Obviously we know the line will be doing 24tph when it's fully operational and probably for a number of years after, but 28tph and even 32tph have all been suggested as possible in future if demand for these services grows. Personally I have a feeling 12tph to Canary Wharf / Abbey Wood will look inadequate quite quickly. If there's a safety limit on the number of trains in a section that might mean there's not a lot of headroom? Hope not!
     
  26. camflyer

    camflyer Member

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    There's a huge amount of handover paperwork to be done:

     
  27. kevin_roche

    kevin_roche Member

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    I believe that has been taken into account in the plans.
     
  28. samuelmorris

    samuelmorris Established Member

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    Two trains between each station when the stations are only 1m30-2m30 apart from each other doesn't seem too limiting, I'm not really sure you could do much better than that anyway in normal service.
     
  29. hwl

    hwl Established Member

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    everything designed for 30tph bear in mind the other expansion option is to increase the trains to 11car.
     
  30. HSTEd

    HSTEd Established Member

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    How often does an all electric multiple unit with no toilets actually have to visit the depot?
    Couldn't you just take a suitable track from the turnback siding at Paddington (or wherever the core signalling stops) to the depot under engineering possession and run a convoy of coupled units back and forth at night?
     

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