Crossrail opening delayed until sometime in 2021

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by gavin, 31 Aug 2018.

  1. Aictos

    Aictos Established Member

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    It’s not just that, bear in mind all fleets have a maintenance schedule so HAVE to visit the depot at some point regardless.

    Plus you need to actually clean them internally and externally so you need to bring that into account.

    As to running a convoy of units under a possession, I think you’re confused to what they’re meant for.
     
  2. cactustwirly

    cactustwirly Established Member

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    Plus they'd have to be serviced at Old Oak Common, a possession every few days across the GWML between Old Oak Common and Westbourne Park is a non starter
     
  3. Busaholic

    Busaholic Established Member

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    Would you trust any of that lot to know which month is in which season? Or even mixing up 2021 with 2022. :lol:
     
  4. HSTEd

    HSTEd Established Member

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    Yes, but not every train needs to be at every depot every night.

    Does internal cleaning haev to be done at the depot rather than at a station after end of service.....
    And why do they need external cleaning particularly? Does it matter if they get dusty?
    After all they are running almost entirely underground and at stations with PEDs anyway.

    Do the units not have coupling gear for rescue and other operations? If for nothing else to allow them to be delivered?
    Are they unable to operationally couple together and either operate in multiple or have one unit haul one or more units dead in train?

    How much traffic is known to operate on the GWML between OOC and Westbourne Park at 3AM on (say) Wednesday and Sunday mornings?

    How does the inconvenienced traffic compare to the probable loadings of even the Crossrail core?
     
  5. cactustwirly

    cactustwirly Established Member

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    Well there are still services into and out of Paddington at that time
     
  6. Nicholas Lewis

    Nicholas Lewis Member

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    Why would it need a possession? If necessary trains operates under CBTC as far as SN99 then manage the transition manually by switching over to conventional signal and then proceed like the current 345s do in and out of the Old Oak Sidings to run the Paddington to Reading route.

    Anyhow there is clearly no political will to push the new Crossrail team to provide any service until its a 100% foolproof. Once bitten twice shy i suspect with the politicians and unless a mayoral candidate is going to go out on limb weve got another 18-21 months to wait
     
  7. QwertyAfro

    QwertyAfro New Member

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    Hate to burst anyone's bubble but the contained section of Padd - Abbey Wood does have a depot on the core line at Plumstead with sidings and light maintenance I do believe enough or to a better extent then at Gidea Park on the east route, there are actually two depots with an extra one based at Abbey Wood station for train crew so theoretically the core section can function by itself with trains contained within the core line without NR connections, for a certain period of time of course.
     
  8. ijmad

    ijmad Established Member

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    Though from what I read, the 345s were not designed from the get go with an 10 or 11 car expansion option built in. Nevertheless I would guess it'd mostly be a question of software these days, Bombardier could probably figure out a way to do it, especially since the Aventras come in all sorts of lengths.

    Just showing some workings because I thought it was interesting:
    • 24tph to 28tph would be a 17% capacity increase
    • 24tph to 30tph would be a 25% capacity increase
    • 9 cars to 11 cars would be a 22% capacity increase
    • 9 cars to 11 cars and 24tph to 30tph would be a 53% capacity increase
     
  9. Aictos

    Aictos Established Member

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    I didn't say that, what I said was the fleet like any other fleet has a maintenance schedule which means that any given unit will have to go to the depot.

    Train Presentation can be done at terminus stations but that is only light cleaning such as bins, wiping DOO cameras free of dirt etc, deep cleaning such as the floors, washing out of the bins etc can only be done on depots.

    Ever seen a train covered in graffiti? The only place that graffiti removing can take place is on depot simply because they have the equipment to deal with this anti social behaviour.

    Being dusty has nothing to do with it, trains are booked to use a wash plant either on depot or at specific outstabling locations eg carriage sidings etc.

    And? They aren't going to stay spotless just because of that, ever heard of something called brake dust?

    For rescue yes but the idea of using them to drag a number of units around is not what they were meant for.

    There's always translator vehicles etc...

    There is always going to be a maximum of units coupled togther especially when you have to regard track circuits etc

    No idea as I'm not familiar with the workings in the area.

    See last answer.
     
  10. Airline Man

    Airline Man Member

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    The Meghan Line?
     
  11. PG

    PG Member

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    At this rate how about 'The Elastic Line' given that the opening date is somewhat, er, elastic...
     
  12. Taunton

    Taunton Established Member

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    You could even haul by diesel on existing lines to/from Plumstead overnight. There's always a way.

    I get the feeling that there's no political will to do anything useful to expedite things. This is not a partisan comment because I feel if either Livingston or Johnson were still in charge at City Hall there would have been some substantial booting along of this, but the current mayor is just a shilly-shally disaster, and all the project team have taken advantage of this.
     
  13. HSTEd

    HSTEd Established Member

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    Yes, but the number of trains required to visit the depot for exams or significant mechanical maintenance each day is much smaller than the number of trains in the relevant fleet.
    And these tasks also only have to be performed relatively infrequently, and the bins could even be taken out of use since I am not aware of any LU stock having bins at the current itme, and the Crossrail core is functionally a tubeline if the ends have been lopped off.
    Yes, especially in Paris!
    But I can't help but imagine the Crossrail core would be a relatively secure location to stable a fleet, given that most would likely spend there nights in underground station platforms or similar other facilities.

    Also most of the places that grafitti can be applied to a train does not actually impair it's ability to function does it?
    AIUI grafitti on places like windscreens is relatively rare, and grafitti applied to the sides of a train is almost always purely cosmetic in nature.
    Yes, but how regularly does a train have to visit a full carriage washer facility in order to remain in service?
    Passengers who would otherwise be crushed on overloaded tube lines are likely to be rather forgiving of a less than stellar appearance from their rolling stock.

    Do they need to stay spotless?
    The only part of the train that has to be clean is the cab windows and the headlamps, anything else is an irrelevance.


    The important part is they have some means to couple to something.
    Translator vehicles can be provided if necessary.

    The passenger capacity of an even partially operational Crossrail core is so enormous that it is a good idea to do almost anything to gain even a marginal capability.
     
  14. Mojo

    Mojo Forum Staff Staff Member Administrator

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    The official plan from Crossrail hasn’t changed since the EOS was previously published by Mark Wild last year, the statement quoted and misunderstood by the Evening Standard was from Mike Brown.
     
  15. Snow1964

    Snow1964 Member

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    Yes, and unless anyone is planning to add some buffer stops, or more realistically a physical obstruction just west of Paddington low level, there is no reason why trains cannot move to Old Oak.

    My understanding is there will be effectively a quarantined section of track between the two signalling systems. Whilst this would prevent passenger use, there appears to be no reason why a slow speed permissive move into the section is not going to be possible. It’s no different to a freight train entering an unsignalled double ended yard, then after getting permission from signallers leaving by alternative route. As long as train is emptied and checked at Paddington, not really any different from how Victoria Line trains enter the sidings at Walthamstow or Brixton.

    Eventually, once software is stable and proved, the changeover will not be time consuming manual process, but automatic so trains just run through the temporary quarantine signalling transition.
     
    Last edited: 11 Jan 2020
  16. Geogregor

    Geogregor Member

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    I suspect bits of scaffolding at Custom House have precisely zero influence on the progress of the whole project.
     
  17. Andrew S

    Andrew S Member

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    Plumstead depot doesn't look like it is ready to stable trains yet.
     
  18. rd749249

    rd749249 Member

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    Lots of drivers move there from tomorrow. The yard is already energised, it is only a matter of time that trains could be stabled there.
     
  19. Taunton

    Taunton Established Member

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    But it's symptomatic of the lethargy about completion that has penetrated the whole project. By the way, it's more than "bits". In fact I suspect it's one single bit, all rusted into position.
     
  20. Class 170101

    Class 170101 Established Member

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    If Canary Wharf becomes a problem at peak times then more of the Shenfield services at peak times will have to move upstairs to terminate / start from Liverpool Street High Level if the core remains at 24tph with higher percentage of the core services diverting to Abbey Wood via Canary Wharf. However it would clearly need more 9 car trains which would be the longest trains Liverpool Street High Level Crossrail platforms would be able to accommodate.
     
  21. Taunton

    Taunton Established Member

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    Canary Wharf having a half service looks likely to be one of the first crunch points. Fortunately it will be in the opposite direction to the flow out to the GEML, that is eastbound in the am peak when GEML needs westbound, and the opposite in the evening, so some sort of 2-1 arrangement would help.

    The other issue will be whether people will actually use the Liverpool Street HL peak service. It will be better in the morning, when passengers may take the first train that comes along at suburban stations, especially if it gets known that the HL services are not so crowded, but returning in the evening people need to decide which station to go to, particularly at the shoulder peak times when you can't be certain when you get there whether the service has started or finished.
     
  22. matt_world2004

    matt_world2004 Established Member

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    The Liverpool Street terminators will pick up people who interchange or finish their journey at Stratford , they will allieveate crowding on the core service.

    Imho it would be better for the night GwR services to be provided by Crossrail once the core opens. It will give drivers route knowledge into paddington and it ends the anomoly of having GwR trains calling at places at night that they don't call at during the day .
     
  23. si404

    si404 Member

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    Given there's already planned on being peak extra Gidea Park-Liverpool Street High Level, I'd suggest that that branch is the crunch point, and the one that suffers more from splitting the frequency at Whitechapel than the Abbey Wood branch, given it is considered to need PIXC-busters from day 1! The Mayor's Transport Strategy bears this out with its 2040 crowding map (with the strategy - which includes the frequency lift during the 2020s "as demand requires"*): the Stratford-Whitechapel section at 5+ standing/m^2, and the Canary Wharf-Whitechapel section less crowded at 4-5 standing/m^2 (heading to the Wharf being the busier flow, despite the branch going all the way to Gravesend).

    As @Taunton says, these PIXC-busting trains might struggle to pull their weight (carrying ~25% of passengers on the branch) due to their terminus. I'd argue they ought to be integrated into the core route ASAP. Not least as they will cause issues with passengers on the platform at Stratford - eg in the morning disgorging most of its passengers into a crowd of people waiting for a Paddington train.

    It would be a logistical challenge, but the peak flows on the eastern branches are opposing (from Stratford and to Canary Wharf in the AM), so perhaps a frequency boost to 28tph could be done lopsided. eg an AM westbound service of 16tph from the Shenfield branch (absorbing the Gidea Park extras - which would also allow a uniform 11-car fleet, rather than some that can't be lengthened*), 12tph from Abbey Wood and an AM eastbound service of 16tph to Abbey Wood and 12tph to Shenfield. You'd need a place to store these trains (the trains from the other branch being in the way of them arriving on the branch or departing to the other branch) on each branch.

    *AFAICS, the frequency boost looks to be before the lengthening to 11-car.
     
  24. Class 170101

    Class 170101 Established Member

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    Liverpool Street has one of the highest walk to work ratios of any London terminus, ie No Underground ticket extension required so I don't think there will a problem getting people to use the High Level terminus.

    Secondly it should be quicker from Stratford direct than via Whitechapel. Thirdly in the evening peak the trains will be waiting for the commuters so will be empty upon arrival = higher chance of a seat or space on the train to stand in comfort.
     
  25. si404

    si404 Member

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    While it is well sited for a lot of The City, a large part of this is because people wanting places further west in Central London currently transfer on/off NR services at Stratford (and Seven Sisters/Tottenham Hale/Walthamstow Central on the Lea Valley/West Anglia) at Stratford - especially from the 'GEML Electrics' (ie what's currently TfL Rail, and will be the Elizabeth line) with its cross-platform interchange to the Central Line and so these people don't count in the terminus figures.

    Ever since the 80s, when Crossrail was first proposed, a key part of the project has always been to take the Shenfield commuter service to places further into London to stop these trains disgorging passengers onto the Central line at the cross-platform interchange at Stratford. Seriously - this is a big number of people, hence the big amount of money to reduce it is justified. Continuing to run trains into Liverpool St HL is antithetical to the aims of the scheme, and so the Gidea Park trains ought to be sent via the core as soon as space allows as they will be much more effective at doing what they are meant to do: reduce crowding on other services.
    Does that even exist anymore (Shenfield excepted, but they'd just use the fasts)? And, AFAICS, it's only Brentwood and Shenfield that have a cheaper fare to Liverpool Street NR than to other zone 1 stations (at peak times only). This is, at best, a very minor concern.
    via the Liz it's 7 minutes westbound and 8 minutes eastbound (via crossrail.co.uk journey time calculator). Via the existing tracks it's 8 minutes westbound and 7 minutes eastbound (via tfl.gov.uk journey planner). So from Stratford the PIXC non-stop trains on the old tracks will be a minute slower than the via Whitechapel trains (to Stratford it's the other way around). It's really a much of a muchness. The Central line has similar journey times as the bigger trains, despite 2 stops.
     
  26. Mojo

    Mojo Forum Staff Staff Member Administrator

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    Indeed, certainly when I used to travel which was before the main peak but at around 16.00-17.00 the trains left Liverpool Street almost empty but then consistently left customers behind at Stratford in the front unit at least.
     
  27. si404

    si404 Member

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    Which is my experience too.

    With through services via the core, many the passengers that currently leave/join their Shenfield trains at Stratford currently will join/leave them at Bond St, TCR, Farringdon, or Whitechapel (cross-platform interchange to/from Canary Wharf and so easier than a change at Stratford from the DLR or Jubilee line to the eastbound Central/Liz line, which is horrible at peak times). You will not have empty Elizabeth line trains west of Stratford that are full east of Stratford - unlike the TfL Rail trains now - because their better penetration of Central London means they serve the areas people want to go to without having to change onto the Central line (and to a lesser extent the Jubilee and DLR) at Stratford.

    As such, having peak congestion-busting trains operating in the same way as the current trains, in order to relieve the line east of Stratford is not going to be that amazingly effective as the number of people using stations between Stratford and Shenfield changing at Stratford is going to be far less than now (and 3 out of 4 trains will be from the core and people will just jump on the first one they can), nor will it do anything for the crowding west of Stratford as most people aren't going to Liverpool Street. It's better than nothing, but isn't going to be as effective as running more core trains on the Shenfield branch in the peak direction (which is the opposite direction to the peak direction on the less busy branch via Canary Wharf, meaning they can both see a peak increase if necessary without being at the expense of the other). As such, I maintain that these trains should run through the core as soon as they can, where they'd provide a 25% boost in capacity for most journeys involving the branch, rather than a 25% boost for only some journeys.
     
  28. mrmartin

    mrmartin Member

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    Wonder how many people will do Stratford -> CW via Crossrail. Should be quicker than Jubilee line (especially if you are already on NR/Central line at stratford).

    3ish mins to Whitechapel, then over the other side of the platform to CW in another 3 mins. Considering how annoying stratford station is to get around and the Class 345s have air con in summer, I think it will be pretty popular over Jubilee/DLR.
     
  29. 306024

    306024 Established Member

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    If the Gidea Park to Liverpool St trains continue to Paddington, they can’t get back to Gidea Park for their next working as quickly, so you would need more trains. These aren’t cheap.
     
  30. si404

    si404 Member

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    I know they aren't cheap. Hence why they should be used as effectively as possible. And running near-empty into/out of Zone 1 when the other trains are congested is definitely not that.
     

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