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Crossrail opening delayed (opening date not yet known)

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mrmartin

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This seemed clear to happen from previous updates. Trial running is way behind the schedule that the new CEO put in. Also still major problems at Bond Street and to a lesser degree Whitechapel. Can someone update the title of the thread?
 
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hwl

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Crossrail won't be opening in 2020 owing to further delay's. It'll open as soon as "practically possible" in 2021
Mark said in the Assembly Transport Committee last week that it would realistically be Feb 2021 at the earliest - so not new news but just some journalists who were off on half term catching up when TfL publish transcripts of the hearing.
 

king_walnut

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I watched something on BBC2 I believe last year that documented the construction of Crossrail, and part of it involved the journey of a few trainee drivers.

Are these drivers just twiddling their thumbs and doing nothing because of these delays? Or are they being used elsewhere on TfL?
 

hwl

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I watched something on BBC2 I believe last year that documented the construction of Crossrail, and part of it involved the journey of a few trainee drivers.

Are these drivers just twiddling their thumbs and doing nothing because of these delays? Or are they being used elsewhere on TfL?
TfL Rail take over most GWR relief line services in December so they will be a lot more utilised in 5 weeks time.
Plenty of route learning (and knowledge retention) and running existing services to do not as much thumb twiddling as you might expect.
Also recruitment and training was behind plan so some bacon saved there by other delays...
 

matt_world2004

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They are performing step back duties at Paddington and probably at Liverpool Street as well this week improves reliability as it ensures there's less likely to be disruption by a personal needs break
 

kevin_roche

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This is probably a good time to announce any delay as the press is all concentrating on the election and the London Assembly meetings are cancelled until after the election.
 

PG

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TfL Rail take over most GWR relief line services in December so they will be a lot more utilised in 5 weeks time.
Plenty of route learning (and knowledge retention) and running existing services to do not as much thumb twiddling as you might expect.
Also recruitment and training was behind plan so some bacon saved there by other delays...
So if these TfL drivers take over work currently done by GWR drivers in December does that mean that GWR are going to find themselves with a driver surplus come next month?
 

ptreanor

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It tells the public how complex the task is, maybe preparing the way for more delay?
There is no doubt that required multi-system integration is complex but I do get the impression that it's being a little overplayed in order to manage expectations. Transitioning from one signalling system to another is not new to the UK, Eurostars and Javelins have been doing it for years and I don't remember it taking this long to prove the concept.
The YouTube video seems to focus on the myriad of test scenarios to be undertaken within the CBTC section but I could be wrong!
 

mrmartin

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Agreed, it's pretty ridiculous that integrating these signalling systems is made out to be such a hard problem. It's been known for a decade+ what was required, but still software development seems to be in progress. I think someone mentioned interfacing with CBTC is a new problem that hasn't really been attempted anywhere, but considering Crossrail/TfL can specify the exact type of CBTC installed, I don't really buy that either.

Furthermore, the initial phase only uses CBTC - it's the further phases to Shenfield and Heathrow that the integration problem exists with surely? I suspect the problem with the signalling system is much more serious than just the interface points - otherwise I'd imagine they would significantly delay the other branches and get the core up and running ASAP. (Delays have been implied already on the other branches). I could imagine the core opening with no weekend service for example so that Sat + Sun can be soley used for interface testing.
 

samuelmorris

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This may be an unfair assumption, but given the considerable delay to the 710 deployment specifically due to TMS software issues, I do find myself wondering if most of the software issues are not Trainguard, but getting Bombardier's TMS on the 345s to work with Trainguard. After all, they can't get the 345s working properly with ETCS on the GWR yet either, but the 387s seem happy enough with it don't they?

I just can't escape the feeling that this systems integration problem is a little one-sided. That might be totally untrue, but given past and indeed recent experience with Bombardier train software, it's hard not to point the finger at least a little in that direction.
 

kevin_roche

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So if these TfL drivers take over work currently done by GWR drivers in December does that mean that GWR are going to find themselves with a driver surplus come next month?
GWR are planning to run a lot of extra services after the start of the new timetable.
 

hwl

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This may be an unfair assumption, but given the considerable delay to the 710 deployment specifically due to TMS software issues, I do find myself wondering if most of the software issues are not Trainguard, but getting Bombardier's TMS on the 345s to work with Trainguard. After all, they can't get the 345s working properly with ETCS on the GWR yet either, but the 387s seem happy enough with it don't they?

I just can't escape the feeling that this systems integration problem is a little one-sided. That might be totally untrue, but given past and indeed recent experience with Bombardier train software, it's hard not to point the finger at least a little in that direction.

The 387s haven't used ETCS yet and one have had the equipment fitted.
There are big problems with Trainguard:
a) issues with code discovered that had been deployed in other Trainguard locations and only discovered in Crossrail testing that needed to be address globally in installations - very tough questions being asked as to how it got though testing elsewhere over the last decade.
b) Trainguard needs several additional functionally packages added for Crossrail.
c) Running with higher frequency /longer train combinations than elsewhere so performance is being pushed to the limit. (Notably shorter trains elsewhere)
d) it is taking an extra 2 software iterations to get to multi train service headway testing stage
e) Hong Kong are also having similar problems to London (trying to do similar things outcome wise in parallel)
f) first time Trainguard has had to co-exist with ETCS on board train equipment. The ETCS spec requires all other signalling systems to be subsidiary to it and this is the first time Traingaurd has been installed in this way on the rolling stock side i.e. interfacing through the EVC. (**a major change**)
g) following on from f) it also uses a lot of the same sensors as ETCS but gets the data from the EVC.
 

Mag_seven

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I'm wondering if they are beginning to wish they had just installed conventional signalling - you know the one that's tried and tested!
 

ptreanor

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This may be an unfair assumption, but given the considerable delay to the 710 deployment specifically due to TMS software issues, I do find myself wondering if most of the software issues are not Trainguard, but getting Bombardier's TMS on the 345s to work with Trainguard. After all, they can't get the 345s working properly with ETCS on the GWR yet either, but the 387s seem happy enough with it don't they?

I just can't escape the feeling that this systems integration problem is a little one-sided. That might be totally untrue, but given past and indeed recent experience with Bombardier train software, it's hard not to point the finger at least a little in that direction.
Didn't TfL choose CBTC because they felt that ETCS hasn't demonstrated sufficient maturity? The system integration issue seems (IMHO) to be a bit of a red herring when one considers that the initial service through the tunnel section only operates between Abbey Wood and Paddington low level. Yes, I know there's the depot at OOC to access with ECS moves but surely that's a relatively low risk interface?
A little more honesty is needed here me thinks!
 

hwl

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Didn't TfL choose CBTC because they felt that ETCS hasn't demonstrated sufficient maturity? The system integration issue seems (IMHO) to be a bit of a red herring when one considers that the initial service through the tunnel section only operates between Abbey Wood and Paddington low level. Yes, I know there's the depot at OOC to access with ECS moves but surely that's a relatively low risk interface?
A little more honesty is needed here me thinks!
On the signalling /train interface - system Integration includes things like the platform edge door and CCTV system integration with the train and signalling
The system integration on the "building" side is also in a poor state e.g. multiple systems not integrated into SCADA. Ventilation system not integrated properly with fire alarm systems and existing LU stations etc. ...
 

kevin_roche

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On the signalling /train interface - system Integration includes things like the platform edge door and CCTV system integration with the train and signalling
The system integration on the "building" side is also in a poor state e.g. multiple systems not integrated into SCADA. Ventilation system not integrated properly with fire alarm systems and existing LU stations etc. ...
I would really like to see a block diagram showing all these interfaces. Does anyone have one?
 

306024

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They are performing step back duties at Paddington and probably at Liverpool Street as well this week improves reliability as it ensures there's less likely to be disruption by a personal needs break

On GW services all driver relief currently takes place at Paddington, but many trains are worked back by the driver that brings it in. However with so many drivers in training it could well appear that the drivers step back, but usually they will be off for their PNB or finished. When the Reading services start in December many services will be worked by Maidenhead drivers who will keep with the train and change over at Maidenhead.

On GE services most driver relief takes place at Shenfield. The driver that works the train into Liverpool St works it out again.

Disruption is minimised by keeping the driver with the unit as much as possible. If you keep swapping drivers one fatality for example will take much longer to recover from. Driver PNBs are not timed as tightly as elsewhere to ensure minor late running doesn’t invalidate the drivers break.
 

samuelmorris

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The 387s haven't used ETCS yet and one have had the equipment fitted.
There are big problems with Trainguard:
a) issues with code discovered that had been deployed in other Trainguard locations and only discovered in Crossrail testing that needed to be address globally in installations - very tough questions being asked as to how it got though testing elsewhere over the last decade.
b) Trainguard needs several additional functionally packages added for Crossrail.
c) Running with higher frequency /longer train combinations than elsewhere so performance is being pushed to the limit. (Notably shorter trains elsewhere)
d) it is taking an extra 2 software iterations to get to multi train service headway testing stage
e) Hong Kong are also having similar problems to London (trying to do similar things outcome wise in parallel)
f) first time Trainguard has had to co-exist with ETCS on board train equipment. The ETCS spec requires all other signalling systems to be subsidiary to it and this is the first time Traingaurd has been installed in this way on the rolling stock side i.e. interfacing through the EVC. (**a major change**)
g) following on from f) it also uses a lot of the same sensors as ETCS but gets the data from the EVC.
Fair enough, thanks for the detailed reply, there's a lot of stuff here I wasn't aware of, though I did suspect Trainguard (or this implementation of it) would be far from blameless.
 

Goldfish62

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I'm wondering if they are beginning to wish they had just installed conventional signalling - you know the one that's tried and tested!
Would have constrained the line capacity and allowed no growth in services.
 

hwl

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Fair enough, thanks for the detailed reply, there's a lot of stuff here I wasn't aware of, though I did suspect Trainguard (or this implementation of it) would be far from blameless.
Thales are having almost identical issues on the LU's SSR re-signalling (and Singapore). (LU has postponed any Northern line signalling upgrades to increase the frequency till the SSR is completed)
Many London schemes often push a signalling technology to the limits (ditto NY and HK). Hence many firms wanting to win London work to give their tech platform a proven go anywhere do anything mark (and effectively pay the R&D costs to upgrade form the basic as developed tech to the all capabilities option). Hence Bombardier's US signalling team being desperate to win the 2nd iteration of the SSR contract.
 

Class 170101

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http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/Rail-News

The phased opening, now set to occur in 2021, will mean initial Elizabeth Line services to Shenfield will start from Liverpool Street main line, and Reading and Heathrow services will start from the main line platforms at Paddington.

Only the outer London station at Abbey Wood will be served by trains running through the central London tunnels to Farringdon, Tottenham Court Road and Paddington

So not even a full service in 2021 according to this article.
 

samuelmorris

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http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/Rail-News



So not even a full service in 2021 according to this article.
No, the 'opening date' of Crossrail still refers to the central operating section only, not when the existing routes are connected to it. Now that 2020 is off the agenda for the core opening, I think we can fairly safely say 2022 for the connections to the GE and GW, or maybe December 2021 for the former at the earliest.
 

Carlisle

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Would have constrained the line capacity and allowed no growth in services.
True, however didn’t a similar idea allow the Jubilee line extension to open on time & operate reliably until the new signalling was perfected some years later
 

samuelmorris

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True, however didn’t a similar idea allow the Jubilee line extension to open on time & operate reliably until the new signalling was perfected some years later
It did but that's a rather different scenario, extending a largely self-contained route a bit further, but remaining self-contained. Crossrail will rely on the improved performance new signalling provides in order to be able to integrate the routes it comprises. The systems either side of the core still aren't identical even if a legacy system (which would later have to be replaced with the new system probably causing downtime) was fitted in the core.
 

ptreanor

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Fair enough, thanks for the detailed reply, there's a lot of stuff here I wasn't aware of, though I did suspect Trainguard (or this implementation of it) would be far from blameless.
But my original point was that the Crossrail YouTube video seemed to be over overplaying TPWS/AWS/CBTC integration rather than focusing on the real issues which appear to be related to other systems integration within the core section.
 

Carlisle

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It did but that's a rather different scenario, extending a largely self-contained route a bit further, but remaining self-contained. Crossrail will rely on the improved performance new signalling provides in order to be able to integrate the routes it comprises. The systems either side of the core still aren't identical even if a legacy system (which would later have to be replaced with the new system probably causing downtime) was fitted in the core.
i
Very Interesting, Id often thought that as the Jubilee line was crucial to the launch of the Millennium Dome, considerable effort must’ve taken place throughout the whole project to ensure an on time opening that simply wasn’t deemed necessary on Crossrail
 
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samuelmorris

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Very Interesting, Id often thought that as the Jubilee line was crucial to the launch of the Millennium Dome, considerable effort must’ve taken place throughout the whole project to ensure an on time opening that simply wasn’t deemed necessary on Crossrail
That is also true and probably played a significant part.
 
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