Crossrail - operating discussion and opening day 24th May

[JaJaWa]

This video shows that the direct link from the DLR to the Elizabeth line at Custom House has now been made one way only, with the gateline set to continuation entry, so there is now no need to tap out of the DLR.

In the other direction you still have to exit the Elizabeth line from the main gateline, and then touch into the DLR separately.

I wonder if this is the permanent solution or if they still plan to enable the direct connection in both directions.

 

[RailExplorer]

Found the documentary most illuminating. One interesting aspect that was covered was the auto reverse at Paddington/Westbourne Park sidings. From what I picked up in the programme, it looked like auto reverse is not activated until the driver reaches the sidings. I'm sure we discussed this previously in this thread, but why is auto reverse not activated as soon as the train departs Paddington? I'm sure the issue of trespassers was mentioned, but surely that is equally an issue when the train goes back into Paddington without the driver at the front.

The auto reverse is activated at Paddington Westbound platform, and de-activated on arrival into Paddington Eastbound platform. It will do the entire move to Westbourne Park without a drivers key. There are however no moves taking place with auto reverse operational outside of testing (such as sundays). And even during testing, a fully qualified driver must be positioned in both cabs even though neither driver will have their key in. The long term aim, is to set up auto reverse at Paddington and begin walking back to the opposite cab. We currently get 7 minutes to change ends, and the move each way into and out of Westbourne Park is 2 minutes. So it Would still need to sit in the siding for 3 minutes minimum unless another driver was taking over at Paddington.

 

[SynthD]

I wonder if this is the permanent solution or if they still plan to enable the direct connection in both directions.

As far as I’ve heard, there isn’t a dedicated route from Liz to DLR, so there’s no place for barriers to serve as Liz-exit and DLR-entry in one tap.

 

[ijmad]

As far as I’ve heard, there isn’t a dedicated route from Liz to DLR, so there’s no place for barriers to serve as Liz-exit and DLR-entry in one tap.

Passengers will be forced to tap out at a gateline though, which seems much more likely to trigger them to tap in on something, so hopefully less of a problem

 

[JaJaWa]

As far as I’ve heard, there isn’t a dedicated route from Liz to DLR, so there’s no place for barriers to serve as Liz-exit and DLR-entry in one tap.

Well the route they’ve now made one way could be set up as two way as originally intended. Presumably they’ve not figured out the gateline logic (or maybe it would cause issues if the DLR entry touch was performed and then the person didn’t travel by DLR).

 

[Reliablebeam]

I did not know about the auto-reverse until I read it here. Very interesting technical feature.

I've used this line quite a lot now in central London, and I'm impressed - the staff seem really enthusiastic and motivated. The Faringdon interchange seems to work well for me - Tottenham Court Road I found not so good, quite a schlep from the Central. I had to look up what that weird artwork pattern is at Faringdon - looked like some kind of quasicrystal to me......

 

[SynthD]

Well the route they’ve now made one way could be set up as two way as originally intended. Presumably they’ve not figured out the gateline logic (or maybe it would cause issues if the DLR entry touch was performed and then the person didn’t travel by DLR).

The gates Geoff used are continuation-entry, I think he misworded it but he may know more. That works as an entry to a gated area from the street and the ungated DLR. The reverse of that, exit to street gates that count as entry onto DLR, don’t make sense.

 

[JaJaWa]

The gates Geoff used are continuation-entry, I think he misworded it but he may know more. That works as an entry to a gated area from the street and the ungated DLR. The reverse of that, exit to street gates that count as entry onto DLR, don’t make sense.

Continuation exit is possible and is in use elsewhere.

I don’t know if they are working on implementing it for the link between the Elizabeth line and the DLR as was originally intended (not the main exit), or if this will be the final setup.

 

[345 050]

The auto reverse is activated at Paddington Westbound platform, and de-activated on arrival into Paddington Eastbound platform. It will do the entire move to Westbourne Park without a drivers key. There are however no moves taking place with auto reverse operational outside of testing (such as sundays). And even during testing, a fully qualified driver must be positioned in both cabs even though neither driver will have their key in. The long term aim, is to set up auto reverse at Paddington and begin walking back to the opposite cab. We currently get 7 minutes to change ends, and the move each way into and out of Westbourne Park is 2 minutes. So it Would still need to sit in the siding for 3 minutes minimum unless another driver was taking over at Paddington.

Thanks for explanation, this is very useful. Sounds like more testing required then, before they can enable auto reverse without 2 drivers.

 

[Mikey C]

Just a mapping error - it will use the same tunnels as Heathrow Express have for years, and indeed TfL rail have been using since taking over Heathrow Connect

EDIT - I’d also suggest it’s the underlying map that is incorrect; and the overlay put on by Crossrail is right - the platforms at Heathrow Terminal 5 are due East/West, whereas the underlying map has them more Northwest/Southeast

It's a sneaky means by which TfL can stop paying Heathrow Airport for the use of their tunnels!

"Look at the map, we've got separate tunnels running into Heathrow"

 

[Lifelong]

Continuation exit is possible and is in use elsewhere.

I don’t know if they are working on implementing it for the link between the Elizabeth line and the DLR as was originally intended (not the main exit), or if this will be the final setup.

I hope they are - I realise we are all positively inclined towards the railway, but speaking as someone inconvenienced every day on this - given the length of time there was to think through this prior to opening, the current situation is pretty sub-optimal

 

[rd749249]

Dynamic testing has 2 drivers for AR moves but I and others have done it ourselves during Trial Running / Ops; I can’t remember which.

Doors don’t open at Paddington until you’ve keyed on again, ensuring you’re in the cab prior to getting any passengers on board. Very annoying alarm when approaching the cab as it ARs with your tail lights on at the front of the train and going in a forward direction.

This tends to only happen if you’re running late. If you’re on time, you’re in the cab the other end by the time you’re going back to Paddington.

 

[Snow1964]

Found the documentary most illuminating. One interesting aspect that was covered was the auto reverse at Paddington/Westbourne Park sidings. From what I picked up in the programme, it looked like auto reverse is not activated until the driver reaches the sidings. I'm sure we discussed this previously in this thread, but why is auto reverse not activated as soon as the train departs Paddington? I'm sure the issue of trespassers was mentioned, but surely that is equally an issue when the train goes back into Paddington without the driver at the front.

It could be that they need to turn off to the sidings, and at the point the train leaves Paddington driver doesn’t know which siding they will go to (I think there are 3, one of which is actually a loop), or even if they will be signalled onwards along the main line towards Old Oak because all the sidings are full (which could happen if an earlier train has a fault)

Presumably if driver leaves cab early then they lose the option to continue empty past the sidings if there is a problem accessing them.

 

[Justin Smith]

I think the map must be off by a few metres. I used the Elizabeth Line (then TFL Rail) to Heathrow Terminal 5 in November and it went through the usual tunnels.

Just a mapping error - it will use the same tunnels as Heathrow Express have for years, and indeed TfL rail have been using since taking over Heathrow Connect

EDIT - I’d also suggest it’s the underlying map that is incorrect; and the overlay put on by Crossrail is right - the platforms at Heathrow Terminal 5 are due East/West, whereas the underlying map has them more Northwest/Southeast

Thanks chaps, I wanted to know because I am adding the Crossrail / Elizabeth line to my Cobbs atlas !

 

[nuneatonmark]

Had a first experience with Liz's line over the weekend. Overall pretty impressed although the 'interchange' with Jubilee Line at Canary Wharf is ludicrous? Surely they could have done something better?

 

[JN114]

Had a first experience with Liz's line over the weekend. Overall pretty impressed although the 'interchange' with Jubilee Line at Canary Wharf is ludicrous? Surely they could have done something better?

Not really - the Jubilee and Crossrail stations are under the adjacent docks to the main Canary Wharf developments, precisely because the foundations directly underneath those enormous skyscrapers and deep and extensive.

You couldn’t easily tunnel between them because of the foundations to make the interchange easier; and putting Elizabeth line underneath the Jubilee would have made the station incredibly difficult to construct.

Canary Wharf is more of a destination than an interchange in my eyes.

 

[ijmad]

Really seems like there is a pretty weak case for interchanging from the Jubilee to the Liz and vice versa at Canary Wharf. Very few journeys would be improved by doing that rather than changing in town and taking a more sensible route that involves getting on the Jubilee at London Bridge, Waterloo, Westminster or Bond Street.

I agree that it seems far more like a 'destination' to provide relief to the Jubilee for office workers and to attract more tourists to bars and restaurants out that way, and to provide Canary Wharf with a direct link to Heathrow, and eventually HS2 interchange at Old Oak Common.

Having said all that, if you go the right way the walk literally only takes 3 minutes, as can be seen in Geoff Marshall's video, which is less time than needed to change tube lines at several of the more complex underground stations!

 

[SynthD]

The shopping centre at lower levels shortens the distance the link would need to be. Or they could have gone under the road to the east ticket hall. Do we know what was considered?

 

[matt_world2004]

Sun 19th June, sun 17th Jul,sun 21st Aug and sun 4th september the relief lines of the gwml are closed for central operating section integration testing. No tests planned after that date

 

[JaJaWa]

The Crossrail station at Canary Wharf was originally going to be called Isle of Dogs until Canary Wharf Group funded it. So although it ended up with the same name, it wasn't designed as part of the same station or as an interchange.

On 24 December 2008, it was confirmed that Canary Wharf Group (CWG) will contribute £150m towards the costs of Isle of Dogs station. CWG will construct the Isle of Dogs station for a fixed price of £500 million. £350m of the station's £500m costs will be met from Crossrail's £15.9bn budget with CWG bearing the risk in relation to costs above the fixed price limit.

The renamed Canary Wharf station will be the first Crossrail station to be constructed, and includes plans for 100,000 square feet of retail space and a roof-top park. Crossrail services will begin operating from 2017 cutting journey times across London allowing travel from Canary Wharf to Liverpool Street in 7 minutes, Paddington in 17 minutes and Heathrow in 44 minutes.

Welcome to Crossrail

Crossrail Ltd has delivered the Elizabeth line - a new railway for London and the South East, running from Reading and Heathrow in the west, through 42km of new tunnels under London to Shenfield and Abbey Wood in the east. The Elizabeth line has 41 accessible stations including 10 major new...

www.crossrail.co.uk

 

[pelli]

You couldn’t easily tunnel between them because of the foundations to make the interchange easier; and putting Elizabeth line underneath the Jubilee would have made the station incredibly difficult to construct.

The shopping centre at lower levels shortens the distance the link would need to be. Or they could have gone under the road to the east ticket hall. Do we know what was considered?

If I understood the Canary Wharf shopping centre map correctly, the current interchange routes between the Elizabeth and Jubilee lines, at both the western and eastern ends, work as follows: From platform level, you go up an escalator, through the barriers, then up another escalator to "level -1" (which is above water level but under street level), then in a straight line through the shopping centre under all the buildings and roads to the other station, then down an escalator, through the barriers, and down another escalator to platform level. The western route is partly in the open, while the eastern route is almost fully enclosed and goes more or less directly under the road (Upper Bank Street), but both are completely level between the two stations save for some small ramps.

If you wanted an interchange link at an even lower level, then you wouldn't be able to use the shopping centre, as -1 is its lowest level in this area. There do seem to be three levels of car park below -1 (as indicated by buttons P1,P2,P3 being visible in various youtube videos of the shopping mall lifts...), stretching from the car entry point by the water in the east to just short of the One Canada Square skyscraper in the west, so maybe they could've put an interchange link through one of the car park levels, abandoning any parking spaces severed from the entry point in the east. But the result would be a 300m long boring interchange corridor, just to save (at most) two escalator rides for a small fraction of the passengers using the stations...

 

[thomalex]

If I understood the Canary Wharf shopping centre map correctly, the current interchange routes between the Elizabeth and Jubilee lines, at both the western and eastern ends, work as follows: From platform level, you go up an escalator, through the barriers, then up another escalator to "level -1" (which is above water level but under street level), then in a straight line through the shopping centre under all the buildings and roads to the other station, then down an escalator, through the barriers, and down another escalator to platform level. The western route is partly in the open, while the eastern route is almost fully enclosed and goes more or less directly under the road (Upper Bank Street), but both are completely level between the two stations save for some small ramps.

That's correct. The best interchange is from the eastern end of the Elizabeth line station. You go up the escalators, a bang straight line through the shopping centre, and down the escalators at the other end to the Jubilee line. It takes tops 3 minutes and likely isn't any longer than the Moorgate Northern line tunnel.

The one thing that's missing is a clear sign to direct you when you leave the Elizabeth line station, the doors to the shopping centre are just to your right but there's nothing to indicate that's where you head to the Jubilee line. Once in the shopping centre there is signage to direct you straight on.

 

[Horizon22]

Really seems like there is a pretty weak case for interchanging from the Jubilee to the Liz and vice versa at Canary Wharf. Very few journeys would be improved by doing that rather than changing in town and taking a more sensible route that involves getting on the Jubilee at London Bridge, Waterloo, Westminster or Bond Street.

I agree that it seems far more like a 'destination' to provide relief to the Jubilee for office workers and to attract more tourists to bars and restaurants out that way, and to provide Canary Wharf with a direct link to Heathrow, and eventually HS2 interchange at Old Oak Common.

Having said all that, if you go the right way the walk literally only takes 3 minutes, as can be seen in Geoff Marshall's video, which is less time than needed to change tube lines at several of the more complex underground stations!

Indeed I can't find many cases where the need to change would be that prevalent at Canary Wharf - perhaps more so at present, but once Bond Street is open & Stratford is connected with through running, then even the residual need will diminish.

 

[JaJaWa]

The new pink Oyster readers have been commissioned at Ealing Broadway:

https://twitter.com/DerpyScripts/status/1536746769484333057

I am slightly puzzled how it was realised that they were needed for a slightly obscure scenario here and nobody realised there were going to be issues at Farringdon, Custom House, and Abbey Wood.

 

[Horizon22]

The new pink Oyster readers have been commissioned at Ealing Broadway:

https://twitter.com/DerpyScripts/status/1536746769484333057

I am slightly puzzled how it was realised that they were needed for a slightly obscure scenario here and nobody realised there were going to be issues at Farringdon, Custom House, and Abbey Wood.

They've physically been there for a while - been a while since I've had a need to do such a journey but at least the hassle of going upstairs and downstairs again is removed. Good to see its resolved, as first noticed the impact last year.

I think it has been known, just nobody wanted to do anything specific about it. Custom House issues I feel could have engineered out, or have a Southwark/Waterloo East "dead space" area option.

 

[MikeWh]

They've physically been there for a while - been a while since I've had a need to do such a journey but at least the hassle of going upstairs and downstairs again is removed. Good to see its resolved, as first noticed the impact last year.

I think it has been known, just nobody wanted to do anything specific about it. Custom House issues I feel could have engineered out, or have a Southwark/Waterloo East "dead space" area option.

At Ealing Broadway the validators were yellow for people using paper tickets on the mainline and Oyster on the Underground. Whilst the pink ones will also fulfill that purpose when touching in, you still have to go upstairs the other way.

The reason it was needed was loss of zone 1 revenue once through running starts as there is an internal link between Bakerloo and Elizabeth line at Paddington. That made it worthwhile.

Custom House is just a severe lack of planning. Unless the DLR gets gated there is no need for a Southwark dead zone. Farringdon is similar because someone should have thought about people arriving from outside PAYG on Thameslink. I'm not convinced Abbey Wood will get sorted because the scope for doughnutting is quite high there.

 

[Horizon22]

At Ealing Broadway the validators were yellow for people using paper tickets on the mainline and Oyster on the Underground. Whilst the pink ones will also fulfill that purpose when touching in, you still have to go upstairs the other way.

The reason it was needed was loss of zone 1 revenue once through running starts as there is an internal link between Bakerloo and Elizabeth line at Paddington. That made it worthwhile.

Custom House is just a severe lack of planning. Unless the DLR gets gated there is no need for a Southwark dead zone. Farringdon is similar because someone should have thought about people arriving from outside PAYG on Thameslink. I'm not convinced Abbey Wood will get sorted because the scope for doughnutting is quite high there.

Yes and I remember it was discussed in some detail in this thread, but good to see it resolved either way. Agreed that Custom House was a big oversight and I honestly don't know what the answer to Abbey Wood will be - the good fare-paying citizen will probably have extra hassle as a result of the known fare evasion issues in the area.

 

[345 050]

At Ealing Broadway the validators were yellow for people using paper tickets on the mainline and Oyster on the Underground. Whilst the pink ones will also fulfill that purpose when touching in, you still have to go upstairs the other way.

The reason it was needed was loss of zone 1 revenue once through running starts as there is an internal link between Bakerloo and Elizabeth line at Paddington. That made it worthwhile.

Custom House is just a severe lack of planning. Unless the DLR gets gated there is no need for a Southwark dead zone. Farringdon is similar because someone should have thought about people arriving from outside PAYG on Thameslink. I'm not convinced Abbey Wood will get sorted because the scope for doughnutting is quite high there.

How would that work at Abbey Wood? People would get caught out when they touch out, but still save money?

Dynamic testing has 2 drivers for AR moves but I and others have done it ourselves during Trial Running / Ops; I can’t remember which.

Doors don’t open at Paddington until you’ve keyed on again, ensuring you’re in the cab prior to getting any passengers on board. Very annoying alarm when approaching the cab as it ARs with your tail lights on at the front of the train and going in a forward direction.

This tends to only happen if you’re running late. If you’re on time, you’re in the cab the other end by the time you’re going back to Paddington.

This was sort of covered in the show. There appeared to be a bug if the train got back to Paddington before the driver got back to the cab. The doors didn't open properly. Or is that a feature of the software?

 

[kevin_roche]

There appeared to be a bug if the train got back to Paddington before the driver got back to the cab. The doors didn't open properly. Or is that a feature of the software?

I believe that the doors won't open until the train changes from ECS to passenger service and that won't happen until the driver has keyed in. It's what we in the software business call a feature. It was designed that way so it isn't a bug.

 

[Kite159]

.

How would that work at Abbey Wood? People would get caught out when they touch out, but still save money?

Someone from say Chatham buying a ticket to Rochester to bypass the barriers, catching the Thameslink to Abbey Wood before touching into oyster/contactless and carrying on on the Liz Line.

Or even someone not having a ticket for the leg from station X to Abbey Wood where station X has no ticket barriers (Stone Crossing/Higham)