Crossrail - operating discussion and opening day 24th May

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Today's bonus question: is Crossrail running during the strikes? The TfL notice is ambiguous, implying that the bits of 'Elizabeth Line' that run on other infrastructure are stopping. But I thought the currently open section was on infrastructure exclusive to TfL? And/or does this mean that 'TfL Rail' has now demised as a brand on the GE and GW lines?
 

306024

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Today's bonus question: is Crossrail running during the strikes? The TfL notice is ambiguous, implying that the bits of 'Elizabeth Line' that run on other infrastructure are stopping. But I thought the currently open section was on infrastructure exclusive to TfL? And/or does this mean that 'TfL Rail' has now demised as a brand on the GE and GW lines?
Only units stabled at Plumstead CS are exclusive to TfL. Units from Old Oak, Ilford and Gidea Park all use NR infrastructure to get there.

TfL Rail as a brand has gone, but lives on where PIS systems haven’t been updated, such as on 720558 which I’m currently on.
 

JN114

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As I understand the “West” section is running; but only between 0730 and 1830. Indeed they are to be the only stopping services between Reading and Paddington all day; the limited GWR services will all run fast.

Don’t know what’s happening with the east.
 

306024

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Don’t know what’s happening with the east.
Just a 30 minute frequency from 07.30 to 18.15 ish, with Maryland, Forest Gate, Manor Park and Goodmayes all closed. A very sparse service compared to normal so hopefully people will chose not to travel. Real Time Trains for further detail.
 

SynthD

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Can they stable trains overnight at every platform? I realise they wouldn’t risk a breakdown, but possible anyway?
 

JonathanH

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Can they stable trains overnight at every platform? I realise they wouldn’t risk a breakdown, but possible anyway?
I doubt they would need or want to. There are eight sidings at Plumstead and two platforms at Abbey Wood before the need to consider berthing in the tunnel.
 
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OK, just checking, does that mean no trains in the central section on all mainline strike days because of the difficulty of getting units in/out via NR metals? Or possibly a few from the 8 berths at Plumstead and more if they can get them from the other depots?
 

Watershed

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Today's bonus question: is Crossrail running during the strikes? The TfL notice is ambiguous, implying that the bits of 'Elizabeth Line' that run on other infrastructure are stopping. But I thought the currently open section was on infrastructure exclusive to TfL? And/or does this mean that 'TfL Rail' has now demised as a brand on the GE and GW lines?
Yes, it will be running.

The western and eastern sections will be operating at a severely reduced frequency, and only between 07:30 and 18:30, as they run over NR metals and hence are affected by the NR signallers etc. being on strike.

The core section (Paddington-Abbey Wood) is TfL owned and signalled infrastructure, and will be operating from 06:30 to 23:00(ish), as it's done since opening.

However it will have a reduced frequency of 6tph rather than 12tph before 07:30 and after 18:30, as there isn't enough stabling capacity within the core section for the units required for 12tph, and units can only make their way to/from the eastern and western depots during the 12 hour NR opening period.
 

Horizon22

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Is the temporary-looking building to the east of the bus garage (with the silos) a Crossrail construction thing, or is it a staff facility for train drivers or something?

It’s Paddington New Yard, a small freight terminus.
Isn't it 16tph on the GEML when the full service launches? 12 into the core and 4 to high level?

Btw, would it be possible in the future to run more trains into high level to increase capacity on the GEML generally? Would 12 into the core + 8 high level, or more into the core?

I don’t think a train every 3 minutes would be feasible and even if it was, the reliability would be difficult to maintain.

OK, just checking, does that mean no trains in the central section on all mainline strike days because of the difficulty of getting units in/out via NR metals? Or possibly a few from the 8 berths at Plumstead and more if they can get them from the other depots?

I think the plan is to have as much in the central section as possible - max out Plumstead and berth at Abbey Wood & Paddington. It still leaves several units short so there might be some interesting movements tonight.

Once the first services are up and running, some units might be able to come off Old Oak Common to plug gaps when NR lines reopen.

The reduction after ~1800 is because, as mentioned, the need to return units to other depots on NR infrastructure whilst those lines remain open.
 
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Yes, it will be running.

The western and eastern sections will be operating at a severely reduced frequency, and only between 07:30 and 18:30, as they run over NR metals and hence are affected by the NR signallers etc. being on strike.

The core section (Paddington-Abbey Wood) is TfL owned and signalled infrastructure, and will be operating from 06:30 to 23:00(ish), as it's done since opening.

However it will have a reduced frequency of 6tph rather than 12tph before 07:30 and after 18:30, as there isn't enough stabling capacity within the core section for the units required for 12tph, and units can only make their way to/from the eastern and western depots during the 12 hour NR opening period.
Thanks very much, that's clear. And I have now just had an email from TfL saying this pretty clearly as well. But the poster they have up outside most NR stations is not all clear on this point!!!
 

Railperf

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There was trial running from Paddington onto the GEML as far as Ilford yesterday. Seemed to be start okay, then from about 12:30 onwards there appeared to be some issues with many trial runs delayed or cancelled according to RTT. Clearly bugs to be ironed out before through running can reliably begin.



On an other note I reckon journey times from Liverpool Street High Level to Paddington H&C Little Venice exit is just as quick using the Circle Line and H&C. The H&C platforms are closer at both stations - where the long walk to and from Elizabeth line platforms negates the improved travel time. The real difference will come when you can come in from the GEML without changing at Liverpool Street high level. That will be a huge game changer from the GEML side. As will supposedly through running from the west side into the core.
 
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JonathanH

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There was trial running from Paddington onto the GEML as far as Ilford yesterday. Seemed to be start okay, then from about 12:30 onwards there appeared to be some issues with many trial runs delayed or cancelled according to RTT. Clearly bugs to be ironed out before through running can reliably begin.
Is it clear that the point of doing these tests is to simulate running throughout without perturbation or is there a possibility that the operators 'plant' a perturbation scenario to see how the railway responds?
 

sjm77

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Is it clear that the point of doing these tests is to simulate running throughout without perturbation or is there a possibility that the operators 'plant' a perturbation scenario to see how the railway responds?
That's quite a risk, invent a pertubation onto a live railway and potentially screwing up the real services carrying passengers. Anybody who has seen the recent BBC 15 billion pound railway will have seen the Crossrail simulation centre in Wiltshire where they originally tested the transition between signalling systems at Pudding Mill and also West of Paddington. I believe this would be where such pertubations are tested.
 

JN114

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That's quite a risk, invent a pertubation onto a live railway and potentially screwing up the real services carrying passengers. Anybody who has seen the recent BBC 15 billion pound railway will have seen the Crossrail simulation centre in Wiltshire where they originally tested the transition between signalling systems at Pudding Mill and also West of Paddington. I believe this would be where such pertubations are tested.

Simulating perbutation has been precisely the point of many of these exercises - including on the “live” railway. All the passenger carrying services were planned diverted onto the main lines yesterday; to give Crossrail a sterile environment to play with.
 

345 050

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There was trial running from Paddington onto the GEML as far as Ilford yesterday. Seemed to be start okay, then from about 12:30 onwards there appeared to be some issues with many trial runs delayed or cancelled according to RTT. Clearly bugs to be ironed out before through running can reliably begin.



On an other note I reckon journey times from Liverpool Street High Level to Paddington H&C Little Venice exit is just as quick using the Circle Line and H&C. The H&C platforms are closer at both stations - where the long walk to and from Elizabeth line platforms negates the improved travel time. The real difference will come when you can come in from the GEML without changing at Liverpool Street high level. That will be a huge game changer from the GEML side. As will supposedly through running from the west side into the core.
On the other hand, although in Theory the frequency of Circle line + H&C works out as every five minutes, this is not always the case in reality.

Yes, at the moment you do face a circa 5 minute walk from platform 15-17 to Elizabeth Line at Liverpool Street, and the same again at Paddington. The walk at Paddington and Liverpool Street is definitely longer than the walk to Circle/H&C but I'm not sure I'd want to risk relying on the Sub surface lines - even when a so-called Good Service is reported....
 

Falcon1200

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I'm not sure I'd want to risk relying on the Sub surface lines - even when a so-called Good Service is reported....

Same here; Now that Crossrail is open I will never use the Sub Surface route between Paddington and Liverpool St again, ever; The service was poor when I first started using it regularly in 1978, and if anything, thanks to the demise of the true Circle, it is worse now.
 

matt_world2004

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Yes, at the moment you do face a circa 5 minute walk from platform 15-17 to Elizabeth Line at Liverpool Street, and the same again at Paddington. The walk at Paddington and Liverpool Street is definitely longer than the walk to Circle/H&C but I'm not sure I'd want to risk relying on the Sub surface lines - even when a so-called Good Service is reported....
City mapper shows the el is significantly quicker going from paddington national rail to Liverpool Street. Even when you factor in the longer walk.

Even Ealing Broadway to Stratford is quicker on the Elizabeth line despite two changes
 

345 050

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City mapper shows the el is significantly quicker going from paddington national rail to Liverpool Street. Even when you factor in the longer walk.

Even Ealing Broadway to Stratford is quicker on the Elizabeth line despite two changes
One of the things that still slows me down, if I'm not in a rush, is the architecture of the station. It's not hard to get caught up admiring the incredible station at Liverpool Street, and to an extent Paddington also.

The sub surface lines still have uses, especially in the section where you have the Met as well. In circa 2010 I arrived at St Pancras at 2045, made a swift walk to the underground station, and managed to get to Liverpool Street in time for the 2100, which I believe was a Peterborough (via Ipswich) service.
 

AlbertBeale

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One of the things that still slows me down, if I'm not in a rush, is the architecture of the station. It's not hard to get caught up admiring the incredible station at Liverpool Street, and to an extent Paddington also.

The sub surface lines still have uses
, especially in the section where you have the Met as well. In circa 2010 I arrived at St Pancras at 2045, made a swift walk to the underground station, and managed to get to Liverpool Street in time for the 2100, which I believe was a Peterborough (via Ipswich) service.

Well - given that only a minority of journeys on those parts of the Circle and H&C will be specifically between Paddington and Liverpool St, then I don't see a massive drop in usage on account of Crossrail. Though when there's through running, and someone is heading for a destination which is one change from a central Crossrail station, they might make that change rather than making one change to the Underground at Paddington. But even that doesn't cover many situations. There will still be lots of journeys, eg Paddington to KX/StP, or to destinations on the Piccadilly or Victoria lines, where it'll be as easy or easier to change to the Underground at Paddington rather than continue on Crossrail.
 

Railperf

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Re: late running and service recovery..i noted that a late running train will run faster through Bond St and station dwell times are much shorter than the standard 1 min. In fact they are closer to the 20s to 30s normally experienced on Tube lines.
 

galwhv69

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Used oyster today between Stratford and Canary wharf today on DLR then Elizabeth Line between CW and Farringdon. The tap on at Stratford and Tap Out at CW worked fine, I tapped on at CW EL and out at Farringdon yet it didn't register the tap on at CW EL. Was charged a full fare. Spoke to somebody at Victoria who sorted it as an incomplete journey and altered the fare for me.
I had the same thing at Paddington on the first day. Barriers opened yet touch didn't register so I got charged a max fare after leaving at Sydenham Hill. Customer Services also botched the refund
 

Acton1991

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Just boarded the 8.42 from Acton Main Line heading to Paddington. It was crush loaded. One question - the doors I tried to board at came up with the red sign saying they weren’t in operation.

Is this because people inside are leaning against the door open button? It seemed to then open fine at Paddington.

A bit annoying as many passengers then had to scramble to other doors.
 

TFN

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I took the first train from Canary Wharf to Paddington.

The train was leaving people behind at Canary Wharf. I only managed to get in because I was in the middle.

People definitely listened to the DO NOT TRAVEL yesterday but the messaging to avoid travel until 8AM today didn't hit.
 

ashkeba

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I took the first train from Canary Wharf to Paddington. [...] but the messaging to avoid travel until 8AM today didn't hit.
Unless you were driving it, the above seems ironic.
 

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