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Crossrail - operating discussion and opening day 24th May

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JonathanH

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At Paddington ticket wouldn’t work.
Barrier man asked where you going, I replied politely it states on ticket, he said it’s not valid.
You could have used the Bakerloo passage and the underground ticket line if the ticket gate staff member had been persistent.

However, there are no grounds to reject a ticket to Windsor & Eton Central with a Maltese Cross on the Elizabeth Line at Paddington.
 
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RailUK Forums

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Did Finsbury Park to Windsor yesterday, using Thameslink to Farringdon, then Crossrail to Paddington.
Journey planner showed it as a valid route.
Ticket let me onto Crossrail at Farringdon.
At Paddington ticket wouldn’t work.
Barrier man asked where you going, I replied politely it states on ticket, he said it’s not valid.
I showed him journey itinerary. Kept saying but valid, not valid, not valid.
Another man walked over asked what issue was, showed him ticket and itinerary and he opened barriers and didnt say a word. Not impressed
Was the problem at the barriers at the Paddington Low Level (Elizabeth Line) gateline or at the High Level station gateline?
 

Acton1991

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The low level Elizabeth Line gates.
I have witnessed National Rail tickets being rejected on numerous occasions at these gates. Causes queues which is frustrating. Perhaps they have them set up to not automatically open?
 

Surreytraveller

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I have witnessed National Rail tickets being rejected on numerous occasions at these gates. Causes queues which is frustrating. Perhaps they have them set up to not automatically open?
Maybe they're trying to catch people with London Terminals tickets travelling across London
 

Snow1964

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One of the big oddities of the TfL website status boards, is that they show Planned Closure on Sundays, rather than Part closure (District, DLR, Overground all showing Part Closure, so category exists)

Per Engineering work page, it appears trains are still running Reading-Paddington and Shenfield-Liverpool Street, so not clear to me why they use the line closed category

 
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mrmartin

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To be honest the current 'calling everything Elizabeth line' is a bit silly and is confusing. I honestly think it would have been better to have TfL rail still used for the outer sections, and elizabeth line for the core, until they were linked up in Autumn. It would also make it clear that the current annoying changes at Liv st and Pad aren't part of the 'elizabeth line' experience.
 

samuelmorris

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To be honest the current 'calling everything Elizabeth line' is a bit silly and is confusing. I honestly think it would have been better to have TfL rail still used for the outer sections, and elizabeth line for the core, until they were linked up in Autumn. It would also make it clear that the current annoying changes at Liv st and Pad aren't part of the 'elizabeth line' experience.
The whole Elizabeth line branding is nonsense. The Elizabeth line line not being a tube line because it isn't, coupled with fares confusing of 'but it's the tube, what do you mean contactless isn't valid to Maidenhead?' and so on - it's perfectly manageable for regular commuters, but for anyone unfamiliar with the area, the obsession with putting the Queen's name on it, despite the historical precedent, has really made a mess of things.
 

Watershed

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Contactless is valid to Maidenhead. It's Oyster that isn't. But I agree - even though contactless is available throughout, the fares are still utterly inconsistent and result in people being "overcharged" compared to what they'd be charged if the Core were priced on the "London Overground" scale, as it ought to be.
 

samuelmorris

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Contactless is valid to Maidenhead. It's Oyster that isn't. But I agree - even though contactless is available throughout, the fares are still utterly inconsistent and result in people being "overcharged" compared to what they'd be charged if the Core were priced on the "London Overground" scale, as it ought to be.
Fair enough, I honestly hadn't checked. I just brought it up as I greeted some American visitors recently who, unable to buy a ticket as the ticket office was closed and machines weren't working, used contactless to get from Fenchurch Street to Southend Central, to receive a telling off at the other end. Simple when you know, disconcerting when you don't.
 

tomuk

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Contactless is valid to Maidenhead. It's Oyster that isn't. But I agree - even though contactless is available throughout, the fares are still utterly inconsistent and result in people being "overcharged" compared to what they'd be charged if the Core were priced on the "London Overground" scale, as it ought to be.
What would the prices actually be if charged at the LO scale?
 

Watershed

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What would the prices actually be if charged at the LO scale?
Fairer, in short. There wouldn't be the mixed mode tax that currently applies if part of your journey is priced on one of non-LU compatible scales (e.g. journeys from west of West Drayton or east of Stratford).

As for the Heathrow tax, there's realistically not a lot that TfL could directly do about that, but the government should have intervened to stop BAA from raking in the millions of profits they're currently making on what should be a part of Network Rail infrastructure.

The decision to adopt the policy that NR paper tickets "aren't valid" is entirely down to TfL though.
 

tomuk

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Fairer, in short. There wouldn't be the mixed mode tax that currently applies if part of your journey is priced on one of non-LU compatible scales (e.g. journeys from west of West Drayton or east of Stratford).
Is it a tax? Is it not just trying allocate the fare revenue to Tfl/non TFL services in a fairer way. I suppose the fares could be all the same with transfer payments being made between TfL and Dft/TOCs to make up the difference. I'm not sure the appropriate tax payers would be happy about that.
As for the Heathrow tax, there's realistically not a lot that TfL could directly do about that, but the government should have intervened to stop BAA from raking in the millions of profits they're currently making on what should be a part of Network Rail infrastructure.
BAA built the Heathrow tunnels didn't they? Why shouldn't they make money of the use of their private assets? I'm sure they would be happy to sell them to NR/State for an appropriate price. Or do you support the expropriation of private property?
 

Watershed

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Is it a tax? Is it not just trying allocate the fare revenue to Tfl/non TFL services in a fairer way. I suppose the fares could be all the same with transfer payments being made between TfL and Dft/TOCs to make up the difference. I'm not sure the appropriate tax payers would be happy about that.
The term tax is just a colloquialism, but if walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Take a journey like Plumstead to Liverpool Street. You pay more for that than you do from either Abbey Wood or Woolwich, because you're charged a mixed mode fare. So not only are you inconvenienced by having to change, but you're charged extra for the privilege.

Obviously having this mixed mode generates extra revenue but it's rather iniquitous and does little to enhance the attractiveness of public transport.

BAA built the Heathrow tunnels didn't they? Why shouldn't they make money of the use of their private assets? I'm sure they would be happy to sell them to NR/State for an appropriate price. Or do you support the expropriation of private property?
It was initially a joint BAA-BR project. BAA later bought out BR's 20% stake.

The point isn't necessarily that it should become expropriated (what's done is done), but rather that BAA shouldn't be allowed to charge disproportionate track access charges, which is what at the root of the Heathrow "tax".

Yes, of course, building a tunnel is always more expensive than a bit of plain line. But the charges are utterly ridiculous and allow BAA to make a disproportionate profit on a piece of important national infrastructure.
 

Horizon22

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To be honest the current 'calling everything Elizabeth line' is a bit silly and is confusing. I honestly think it would have been better to have TfL rail still used for the outer sections, and elizabeth line for the core, until they were linked up in Autumn. It would also make it clear that the current annoying changes at Liv st and Pad aren't part of the 'elizabeth line' experience.

Whilst the Elizabeth Line might be odd, especially outside the Central section, I don't think it would be any better to have two separate names and would probably be logistically a bit complicated. I appreciate it might make sense more on a temporary manner, but the same can be said the other way as well.
 

Mojo

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To be honest the current 'calling everything Elizabeth line' is a bit silly and is confusing. I honestly think it would have been better to have TfL rail still used for the outer sections, and elizabeth line for the core, until they were linked up in Autumn. It would also make it clear that the current annoying changes at Liv st and Pad aren't part of the 'elizabeth line' experience.
I’ve thought this too.
The point isn't necessarily that it should become expropriated (what's done is done), but rather that BAA shouldn't be allowed to charge disproportionate track access charges, which is what at the root of the Heathrow "tax".
There was actually an intervention by the ORR meaning that the charges are a lot lower than they would otherwise have been. HAL (Heathrow Airport Ltd - it hasn’t been BAA for a few years now) originally wanted to charge £735 per train on the Heathrow spur based upon the original Crossrail timetable. Based upon the number of forecast train movements this was made up of a £597.30 (in 2015, so would have been lower dependent on more trains) investment recovery charge called the “fixed track access charge,” and £138.40 operational expenditure charge (“common cost charge”). The ORR argued that the investment recovery charge was not able to be passed on, so HAL requested a judicial review, which was dismissed.
 

ijmad

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BAA built the Heathrow tunnels didn't they? Why shouldn't they make money of the use of their private assets? I'm sure they would be happy to sell them to NR/State for an appropriate price. Or do you support the expropriation of private property?

Why aren't BAA paying TfL to get passengers to their airport? It's not like anyone wouldn't be going there if the airport wasn't there after all.
 

Steddenm

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Another fare anomaly on Friday on contactless between Reading and Liverpool St.

Tap in at Reading and out at Paddington (Mainline barriers)

Tap in at Paddington (EL gateline) and off at Liverpool St.

Total charge £1.80! Not sure why. The journey between RDG and PAD is showing as zero fare, the fate between PAD and LST is showing as £3.20 and then a refund of £1.40 a minute afterwards.
 

leytongabriel

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The term tax is just a colloquialism, but if walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Take a journey like Plumstead to Liverpool Street. You pay more for that than you do from either Abbey Wood or Woolwich, because you're charged a mixed mode fare. So not only are you inconvenienced by having to change, but you're charged extra for the privilege.

Obviously having this mixed mode generates extra revenue but it's rather iniquitous and does little to enhance the attractiveness of public transport.


It was initially a joint BAA-BR project. BAA later bought out BR's 20% stake.

The point isn't necessarily that it should become expropriated (what's done is done), but rather that BAA shouldn't be allowed to charge disproportionate track access charges, which is what at the root of the Heathrow "tax".

Yes, of course, building a tunnel is always more expensive than a bit of plain line. But the charges are utterly ridiculous and allow BAA to make a disproportionate profit on a piece of important national infrastructure.
Yes . Good example. The 'mixed mode tax' used to cause widespread resentment in London that people in places without a tube (like most of South London) paid more to get into the centre for a less frequent service and the bother of changing.
 

AlbertBeale

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The whole Elizabeth line branding is nonsense. The Elizabeth line line not being a tube line because it isn't, coupled with fares confusing of 'but it's the tube, what do you mean contactless isn't valid to Maidenhead?' and so on - it's perfectly manageable for regular commuters, but for anyone unfamiliar with the area, the obsession with putting the Queen's name on it, despite the historical precedent, has really made a mess of things.

Yes - nonsense indeed. I'm a bit surprised there wasn't more opposition to the idea, as there was to the (very)-last-minute rebranding of the Fleet Line as the Jubilee just before it opened.

Londoners I know who aren't particularly "into" rail things, and who've had no need as yet to use the new route, simply refer to it as Crossrail, as they've been doing for years whenever it's been in the news.
 

gordonjahn

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It was initially a joint BAA-BR project. BAA later bought out BR's 20% stake.

The point isn't necessarily that it should become expropriated (what's done is done), but rather that BAA shouldn't be allowed to charge disproportionate track access charges, which is what at the root of the Heathrow "tax".

Yes, of course, building a tunnel is always more expensive than a bit of plain line. But the charges are utterly ridiculous and allow BAA to make a disproportionate profit on a piece of important national infrastructure.
The charging framework for the Heathrow Spur is regulated to prevent disproportionate track access charges.

Lots of history and summary of the situation at https://www.orr.gov.uk/search-consultations/charging-framework-heathrow-spur and the resulting decision document: https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/defaul...k-for-the-heathrow-spur-decision-may-2016.pdf
 

Falcon1200

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The line links a place on the River Thames in the west, via the capital city on the Thames, with places on or near the Thames in the east. Unfortunately the most appropriate name for the line is already taken.....

Personally I still call it Crossrail, apart from anything else this has fewer syllables so is easier and quicker to say.
 

Vespa

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Stayed in Woolwich last week and it turned out to be a fortuitous choice with the rail and tube strike as the DLR and EL was running, in fact I preferred the Elizabeth Line as it was quicker and has air conditioning, the cavernous station is well designed to keep the temperature down as well, I must say I'm impressed with it, just waiting for it all to link up into one long continuous line.

*APPROVED BY VESPA*
 
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