Crossrail & Overground fares post-takeover

[samuelmorris]

A quick search didn't reveal anything exactly like this, so apologies if this is a repost.

Once the short distance routes out of Liverpool Street are under TfL ownership as London Overground and Crossrail respectively, will they fall under the TfL oyster fares section? It would be welcome to see fare reductions to Brentwood & Shenfield, but even if those are left in isolation, travelling to for example, Harold Wood currently costs far more than nearby Upminster from Fenchurch Street, as the former is a 'national rail' fare. I'm curious whether Crossrail will inherit the London Overground fare structure, and particularly if stations outside Zone 6 are reduced. If one but not the other, the gap between stations for fares will become pretty extraordinary - e.g, taking 2014 fare rates for example.

Zone 1 TfL - Upminster (Zone 6): £5.00
Zone 1 TfL - Harold Wood (Zone 6): £7.50
If the TfL fares were implemented but only as far as Zone 6, you'd be looking at
Zone 1 TfL - Harold Wood (Zone 6): £5.00
Zone 1 TfL - Brentwood (Zone B): £9.60

If you were travelling from somewhere in west London such as Hammersmith you could end up having a 92% increase in fare price for a 15% increase in journey distance.

 

[RJ]

I'll be watching with interest to see what happens with point-to-point season tickets between Liverpool Street and Enfield/Chingford/Cheshunt and all stations in between. I want to see what people will do if they're withdrawn and Travelcards are left as the only season option, in keeping with what happened on the NLL, SLL, WLL and GOBLIN.

 

[VauxhallandI]

So will I

 

[CyrusWuff]

I'll be watching with interest to see what happens with point-to-point season tickets between Liverpool Street and Enfield/Chingford/Cheshunt and all stations in between. I want to see what people will do if they're withdrawn and Travelcards are left as the only season option, in keeping with what happened on the NLL, SLL, WLL and GOBLIN.

Probably not a lot, as I'd guess that the majority of commuters on the WA Inners have got Travelcards judging by the numbers changing onto LU at Seven Sisters/Tottenham Hale/Walthamstow Central/Liverpool Street on the rare occasion I get the train into town during the morning peak.

With the banks having mostly moved their London office staff out to Canary Wharf, the days of people getting point to point seasons to Liverpool Street and walking from there are long gone.

 

[samuelmorris]

It's funny you mention that, that's what I used to do back in late 2011/early 2012 when I worked near Leman Street. At the time commuting from Brentwood, which is really my nearest station, meant queuing up for a paper season ticket every week, costing me £54/week back then. It wasn't too long before I switched to c2c from Upminster, for punctuality/crowding/comfort/cost reasons. Logistically more difficult as there's no public transport link to Brentwood, but with the option of being collected if travelling at a certain time I tried it out. That immediately cut the fare slightly from £56/week to £48, and also allowed me to commute directly to customers in zone 1 for no additional price, whereas any use of the tube on my paper season ticket would be considerable extra cost.

Now two years on I work in Bermondsey, travelling broadly the same distance but being zone 2 it barely costs me half that much (£27/week - not bad for 164 miles at peak time), plus it's PAYG singles, so if I don't go into work, it doesn't cost me anything.
Oyster being enabled to Brentwood/Shenfield has made it far easier to do that journey (c.f. back in the old days having to sign out through the barriers at Stratford and buy a ticket before heading back into the station, especially when the ticket machines were often broken), but it's still pretty uncomfortable, especially when travelling from zone 1 to Shenfield pushes the single fare into double figures.

 

[bicbasher]

It's worth adding while the ELL core doesn't have point to point seasons, it appears to be the only part of TfL's rail network where NR Oyster PAYG fares are charged between Dalston Junction and New Cross/New Cross Gate if travelling to or through Shoreditch High Street as it works out cheaper than the TfL fare travelling through the Zone 1 island. A small concession for local journeys where they pay £1.90 instead of £2.10 between Haggerston and Wapping.

As for point to point seasons from Crossrail stations. I'd expect the likes of Slough, Stratford and Shenfield to still offer the tickets as traditional NR services will still serve those stations. Whether they're valid on TfL's Crossrail branded service remains to be seen, although I suspect Stratford to Liverpool Street will continue to accept NR tickets as currently on the Central line.

P2P seasons are still on sale from ELL stations south of New Cross Gate, but are not valid north of NXG on LO if travelling to London Bridge and there's the SLL quirk where a South Bermondsey to London Terminals or Clapham Junction season is valid between Queen's Road Peckham and Clapham Junction.

 

[RJ]

P2P seasons are still on sale from ELL stations south of New Cross Gate, but are not valid north of NXG on LO if travelling to London Bridge and there's the SLL quirk where a South Bermondsey to London Terminals or Clapham Junction season is valid between Queen's Road Peckham and Clapham Junction.

There is, or was a loophole in the "Not Underground" routed tickets through to certain stations on the NLL. Valid via ELL or City Thameslink. It appears to be known about, as some flows have disappeared from sale or had the price increased to match the via Surrey Quays fare. It's a bit harder to find such a ticket these days.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Probably not a lot, as I'd guess that the majority of commuters on the WA Inners have got Travelcards judging by the numbers changing onto LU at Seven Sisters/Tottenham Hale/Walthamstow Central/Liverpool Street on the rare occasion I get the train into town during the morning peak.

With the banks having mostly moved their London office staff out to Canary Wharf, the days of people getting point to point seasons to Liverpool Street and walking from there are long gone.

Long gone? That'll be me and a proportion of my 4,000 colleagues making these P2P journeys.

 

[Sleepy]

GA longer distance seasons from Norfolk/Suffolk tend to be split 60/40 with travelcard being in the majority, from recent searches if only Zone 1 is required it can be cheaper to use oyster PAYG !

 

[maniacmartin]

With the banks having mostly moved their London office staff out to Canary Wharf, the days of people getting point to point seasons to Liverpool Street and walking from there are long gone.

There are still many financial institutions near Liverpool St / Bank / Moorgate which people commute to from outside the zones. A fair amount of my colleagues do this, and all have London Terminals tickets and walk to my office.

I'd say the banks haven't moved to Canary Wharf; they've expanded into Canary Wharf, whilst still using the City too.

 

[bicbasher]

There are still many financial institutions near Liverpool St / Bank / Moorgate which people commute to from outside the zones. A fair amount of my colleagues do this, and all have London Terminals tickets and walk to my office.

I'd say the banks haven't moved to Canary Wharf; they've expanded into Canary Wharf, whilst still using the City too.

It does make me wonder if the banks had all moved to Canada Square that Shoreditch High Street would have been in Zone 2 instead, considering that it wouldn't have been such a hub for commuting as it is now.

I still think they missed a trick by not having SHS and Liverpool Street as an OSI considering they're both Zone 1 stations and within walking distance.

 

[transmanche]

It does make me wonder if the banks had all moved to Canada Square that Shoreditch High Street would have been in Zone 2 instead, considering that it wouldn't have been such a hub for commuting as it is now.

Although the area around Shoreditch High St always was in Z1, back in the day when buses had separate zones too - the boundary was 'bent' somewhat to keep the old Shoreditch station in Z2. (In fact, if the old boundaries had been observed, Hoxton would also be a Z1 station.)

 

[Be3G]

I'll be watching with interest to see what happens with point-to-point season tickets between Liverpool Street and Enfield/Chingford/Cheshunt and all stations in between.

Perhaps further complicating matters is the existence of ENFIELD CHSE/TWN – which means that if London Overground do get rid of point-to-point seasons on the hitherto Greater Anglia lines, some FCC customers (who'd occasionally stray on to the GA line from Enfield Town) will also lose out.

 

[transmanche]

Perhaps further complicating matters is the existence of ENFIELD CHSE/TWN – which means that if London Overground do get rid of point-to-point seasons on the hitherto Greater Anglia lines, some FCC customers (who'd occasionally stray on to the GA line from Enfield Town) will also lose out.

Even if the Enfield Chase/Enfield Town-London Terminals point-to-point season was withdrawn, realistically it would only affect people who; lived within walking distance of Enfield Chase and Enfield Town stations and worked within walking distance of Moorgate and Liverpool Street stations and rarely made any other journeys in London other than for commuting.

 

[Be3G]

Of course; I didn't say that a great number of people would be affected. The point I was making was more that the ramifications of the removal of point-to-point seasons on London Overground would, thanks to that historically dually available season, also spill over to FCC too, and thereby create complications. For example: as a presumably regulated fare, would it even be legally allowable to alter its route significantly to make it Enfield Chase only?

 

[PermitToTravel]

Although the area around Shoreditch High St always was in Z1, back in the day when buses had separate zones too - the boundary was 'bent' somewhat to keep the old Shoreditch station in Z2. (In fact, if the old boundaries had been observed, Hoxton would also be a Z1 station.)

I think this is why Hoxton is also in zone 1. I don't think it's due to it being adjacent to Shoreditch, as nobody travels from Hoxton to Shoreditch by ELL, given that they're within an easy walking distance. For those who wish to use public transport between the two, the bus frequency between them (four routes) exceeds the ELL frequency.

 

[transmanche]

Of course; I didn't say that a great number of people would be affected. The point I was making was more that the ramifications of the removal of point-to-point seasons on London Overground would, thanks to that historically dually available season, also spill over to FCC too, and thereby create complications.

But when such 'complications' have such an insignificant effect, I can't imagine TfL are going to spend any management time in considering it.

For example: as a presumably regulated fare, would it even be legally allowable to alter its route significantly to make it Enfield Chase only?

Why not? If it's permissible to remove point-to-point fares elsewhere on LO, they can just remove the Chase/Town point-to-point fare - and FCC can create a new Enfield Town only fare if they so wish.

In any event, I would not be at all surprised if, in due course, that LO would not be part of the National Rail network. Already you'll notice that LO stations display the LO symbol and not the NR symbol.[*]

* For the pedants; except where another NR service also serves the station and except for some early temporary signs.