Crossrail Rolling Stock Procurement

[RobShipway]

I've looked at that summary before. If I read it correctly is it saying that West Drayton, Iver and Langley are losing two trains per hour off peak, but West Drayton gaining two additional trains per hour during the peak? I can see the sense in improving peak capacity, but is cutting off peak capacity to these stations sensible? As a West Drayton resident I like the current 4 trains per hour off peak service as it means I can just turn up and go at the station without having to consult the timetable. Am I missing the point here?



Us employees at HEx have been told 2023 as well and management still seem adament that we'll still be running beyond that date.

From details I read I think it was on the Crossrail site, BAA are one of the backers of the Crossrail project and own the track from Airport Junction to Heathrow which is maintained for them by Network Rail.

 

[WatcherZero]

With the announcement 'significant savings could be made if rolling stock was introduced to service earlier' and it starting into service in May 2017 on the Great Eastern and other lines before the Crossrail itself opens, what stock would it be replacing?

 

[Class377/5]

With the announcement 'significant savings could be made if rolling stock was introduced to service earlier' and it starting into service in May 2017 on the Great Eastern and other lines before the Crossrail itself opens, what stock would it be replacing?

Will be replacing 315 & 165/166 units. Savings were in relation to the original idea of having the stock sitting around not earning for awhile during omission. Can't remember the complete details but was in Modern Railways. And sure they said the savings weren't that great.

 

[WatcherZero]

Well I guess 315 woule be retired but have Networkers been pre-allocated for strengthening or cascade?

 

[HSTEd]

Will be replacing 315 & 165/166 units. Savings were in relation to the original idea of having the stock sitting around not earning for awhile during omission. Can't remember the complete details but was in Modern Railways. And sure they said the savings weren't that great.

When will the electrification of the GWML to Bristol be completed?
ie. Would they be replacing the 165s or would they be shunting interim Cl319s out to where they are actually meant to be?

 

[swt_passenger]

Will be replacing 315 & 165/166 units. Savings were in relation to the original idea of having the stock sitting around not earning for awhile during omission. Can't remember the complete details but was in Modern Railways. And sure they said the savings weren't that great.

Replacing the 315s early was definitely flagged up back in 2010, because the OJEU PIN they issued talks about reduced length 160m units being used initially - it turned out following discussions at the time these were to be for the existing Shenfield to Liverpool St service.

A further factor thrown into the mix recently is that Abellio have to separate out a 'business unit' comprising all the train crew and supporting staff who will transfer to Crossrail some time after the next franchise change, taking the Shenfield Metro services with them...

 

[Eagle]

A further factor thrown into the mix recently is that Abellio have to separate out a 'business unit' comprising all the train crew and supporting staff who will transfer to Crossrail some time after the next franchise change, taking the Shenfield Metro services with them...

Abellio or whomever the full franchise is awarded to...

Also I assume the new GW franchisee will have to do the same (although with their part of Heathrow connect that's already more or less separated already).

 

[swt_passenger]

Abellio or whomever the full franchise is awarded to...

I thought Abellio have to do it during the current franchise, this was shown in the ITT as follows: "Bidders should use reasonable endeavours to set up a Separable Crossrail Business Unit by 14th October 2012, but no later than 31st December 2012."

 

[jopsuk]

So that means that at some point fairly soon the 315 fleet is going to have to be split for operational purposes?

 

[swt_passenger]

The section I was reading didn't explicitly mention the rolling stock, but that does follow from the rest. To clarify the dates, the setting up of the discrete business unit is supposed to happen this year, but the transfer to Crossrail would happen under the next franchisee. Seems to be the case of earmarking everyone in advance of the transfer date.

I wonder if any staff will have a choice about which route they end up on - I'd have thought there's a bit of cross coverage at the moment?

 

[Class377/5]

So that means that at some point fairly soon the 315 fleet is going to have to be split for operational purposes?

Doesn't always mean that. Could be a joint service like the Kentish Town - Sevenoaks FCC/SE services currently are.

Replacing the 315s early was definitely flagged up back in 2010, because the OJEU PIN they issued talks about reduced length 160m units being used initially - it turned out following discussions at the time these were to be for the existing Shenfield to Liverpool St service.

A further factor thrown into the mix recently is that Abellio have to separate out a 'business unit' comprising all the train crew and supporting staff who will transfer to Crossrail some time after the next franchise change, taking the Shenfield Metro services with them...

Didn't the original deal say that the units would be brought in early but they worked out it would be 'cheaper' to delay their introduction ahead of the Central Core opening up?

 

[swt_passenger]

Didn't the original deal say that the units would be brought in early but they worked out it would be 'cheaper' to delay their introduction ahead of the Central Core opening up?

The overlap period (for want of a better description) has been shrunk quite a bit, but the principle of the staged introduction of the surface routes still remains. Short of training up the various ex GW and ex GE drivers on a massive private railway somewhere, there's no other way of doing it than running the trains into Liverpool St HL and Paddington HL...

 

[Class377/5]

The overlap period (for want of a better description) has been shrunk quite a bit, but the principle of the staged introduction of the surface routes still remains. Short of training up the various ex GW and ex GE drivers on a massive private railway somewhere, there's no other way of doing it than running the trains into Liverpool St HL and Paddington HL...

Yeah. Drip drip is the best way to slowly introduce them. Was reading an old Rail article yesterday about the 360 for GEML with drivers learning over in Germany on the test track there prior to them coming to the UK. Wonder if something like that could ever be worthwhile again? Maybe only for big orders a la Thameslink or Crossrail with trains a generation ahead?

 

[WatcherZero]

Blackpool did the same for its trams, a delegation of senior drivers was sent to Germany to learn to use them and make final cab layout decisions (like deciding the labeling of controls)

 

[RobShipway]

Surely for any new trains for Thameslink or Crossrail that test track that was user by London Underground to test the S stock trains built by Bombardier can be used as it is now owned by LU is it not?

 

[MCR247]

It is not.

 

[Nym]

Why not just do what they do with almost every other peice of rolling stock, introduce it slowly and train drivers up on quieter parts of the Network.

 

[jopsuk]

As I understand it, the main 379 training took place on the (quieter) Bishops Stortford-Cambridge section of the West Anglia (which the drivers all signed on 317s).

In fact, that's part of the problem- ideally for a conversion course, the drivers need to sign the route already.

is there anywhere "quiet" that the Great Eastern Metro and Paddington local drivers sign?

 

[HSTEd]

As I understand it, the main 379 training took place on the (quieter) Bishops Stortford-Cambridge section of the West Anglia (which the drivers all signed on 317s).

In fact, that's part of the problem- ideally for a conversion course, the drivers need to sign the route already.

is there anywhere "quiet" that the Great Eastern Metro and Paddington local drivers sign?

The New North Main Line perhaps for the Paddington drivers?

 

[jopsuk]

There's a good reason why that's not going to work...

 

[HSTEd]

There's a good reason why that's not going to work...

As far as I know the HS2 work won't be starting until after the Crossrail Core opens.


Oh right I forgot, it isn't wired is it.......


oops

 

[Class377/5]

It will be by the time new stock starts arriving. (Tho not by much.....)

 

[RobShipway]

The only part of the line currently wired on the GWML, there is no where else other than into Old Oak Common depot that is wired.

I am not sure if it can be acceased from Old Oak Common, but they is the overbridge that goes over the GWML to where the Eurostars used to have their depot. Other than that it is going to be down to wiring any branch lines that are going to be wired then dragging the new trains with a diesel to those branches for the drivers to train I suspect. Failing that it will have to be somewhere like the Old Dalby test track where a few Senior drivers get trained first.

 

[swt_passenger]

Why not just do what they do with almost every other peice of rolling stock, introduce it slowly and train drivers up on quieter parts of the Network.

You're right. This really isn't an issue. Every modern EMU/DMU has been introduced into service apparently seamlessly, at least in terms of driver training. There's no reason whatsoever for there to be any unforeseen problems with Crossrail.

Drivers transferred from FGW or BAA to Crossrail will be able to train on the Crossrail operated Heathrow Connect, and on the same routes as the GE drivers, both as separate bits before the central tunnels open. Once they've transferred into Crossrail they'll have to learn the opposite side of London routes anyway. I can't see it working like Thameslink with driver changes in the middle of the route...

 

[AlanFry1]

I Think that the best rain for the job would be the Bombardier built British Rail Class 379 or 377/5. the same would apply to Thameslink Programme rolling stock as well

 

[Class377/5]

I Think that the best rain for the job would be the Bombardier built British Rail Class 379 or 377/5. the same would apply to Thameslink Programme rolling stock as well

377/5 aren't suitable for Thameslink long term due to their 3+2 seating which isn't popluar. Neither are the 379 due to loss of capacity through the cabs when joined up in peak.

 

[swt_passenger]

I Think that the best rain for the job would be the Bombardier built British Rail Class 379 or 377/5. the same would apply to Thameslink Programme rolling stock as well

Read the Crossrail spec. They are asking for 200m fixed formation trains - and the interior spec will be different to either of your suggested solutions. In any case, it has been reported that for Crossrail Bombardier will not offer an Electrostar variant, it will be an Adventra, which is the E* replacement.

Whatever you want for Thameslink is academic though.
Siemens will be building the trains unless they suddenly go bust, as they have been declared the preferred bidder...

 

[Nym]

Siemens will be building the trains unless they suddenly go bust, as they have been declared the preferred bidder...

No chance of that happening, have you seen the size of their National Grid contract???

 

[swt_passenger]

No chance of that happening, have you seen the size of their National Grid contract???

Ah, that was a pre-emptive strike, cos I knew if just wrote 'Siemens will definitely build the trains' someone would come up with an obscure reason why they wouldn't...

 

[Nym]

Ah, that was a pre-emptive strike, cos I knew if just wrote 'Siemens will definitely build the trains' someone would come up with an obscure reason why they wouldn't...

Put it this way, for the amount the're paying some of the people on A floor in my university building, and the lack of people specialising in the products that the're paying accademics to develop (the words of ABB) it's pushing prices up, not to mention lack of rare earth metals, so if anything is going to screw up Siemens it's either the skills shortage or lack of R/E Metals.