CrossRail SE Plans

[DynamicSpirit]

Have Crossrail published any detailed plans for layout of the lines and stations on the SE branch? I'm particularly curious to know where the lines and platforms will go at Abbey Wood and Woolwich. Looking at Google maps, there doesn't seem to be any room for extra platforms at Abbey Wood unless they're planning on getting rid of the station car park? Likewise, it doesn't immediately look like there's much room for additional tracks west of the station. Anyone know what the plans are there?

I'm also curious why they decided to build a new station at Woolwich completely separate from the existing Woolwich Arsenal station (just a minute or two's walk away) instead of adding underground platforms to the existing station. Anyone know?

 

[RobShipway]

Have Crossrail published any detailed plans for layout of the lines and stations on the SE branch? I'm particularly curious to know where the lines and platforms will go at Abbey Wood and Woolwich. Looking at Google maps, there doesn't seem to be any room for extra platforms at Abbey Wood unless they're planning on getting rid of the station car park? Likewise, it doesn't immediately look like there's much room for additional tracks west of the station. Anyone know what the plans are there?

I'm also curious why they decided to build a new station at Woolwich completely separate from the existing Woolwich Arsenal station (just a minute or two's walk away) instead of adding underground platforms to the existing station. Anyone know?

Have a look at htp://www.crossrail.co.uk/assets/library/document/a/original/abbey_wood_station.pdf for Abbey Wood.

 

[swt_passenger]

...and this attachment shows the eventual track layout to Abbey Wood.

 

[tbtc]

I appreciate the arguments for keeping Crossrail as a self contained service, and for not extending it (in the early years at least), but I was surprised to see *no* connection to the Kent line on that diagram.

Cheers for the link swt_passenger

 

[Bald Rick]

...and this attachment shows the eventual track layout to Abbey Wood.

Things have moved on since; it will be a plain vanilla 2 track railway that keeps to the north of the existing North Kent line, and terminates in two new platforms alongisde and to the north of the existing station. Makes it considerably less disruptive to build and maintain, and quite a bit cheaper.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Have a look at htp://www.crossrail.co.uk/assets/library/document/a/original/abbey_wood_station.pdf for Abbey Wood.

Thanks Robbies. Good find. So looking at that diagram it looks like they are in fact planning to get rid of the car park, and also finding space for 4-tracking by knocking off the ends of some gardens to the south, and removing some foliage along the road to the north. Didn't realize they were intending to rebuild the road bridge as well - that's going to be some major works. Glad they are though, and putting the ticket office there - the current network of footpaths etc. over the tracks is a maze. Shame the current ticket office is going though - that's quite a nice building.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Things have moved on since; it will be a plain vanilla 2 track railway that keeps to the north of the existing North Kent line, and terminates in two new platforms alongisde and to the north of the existing station. Makes it considerably less disruptive to build and maintain, and quite a bit cheaper.

Ah, does that mean the link that Robbies gave is also out of date? The pdf he linked to was dated January 2012, and shows the two Crossrail tracks as the central tracks, with the North Kent tracks on either side. (If it is out of date, that means my comments in the first paragraph of this post are wrong too).

 

[Class377/5]

I'm really surprised there is no ability to crossover from Custom House to Paddington. So if a passenger falls I'll or something happens at say Paddingdon they'll have to suspend service from Paddington to Stratford/Custom House.

Unless this is a very simple layout that's not got full details on it?

 

[RichmondCommu]

I'm really surprised there is no ability to crossover from Custom House to Paddington. So if a passenger falls I'll or something happens at say Paddingdon they'll have to suspend service from Paddington to Stratford/Custom House.

Unless this is a very simple layout that's not got full details on it?

Given that there are twin bores I'm guessing that the installation of the crossover would be very expensive?

 

[Chris125]

You couldnt justify the cost - an entirely new system with ATO, PED's and emergency walkways through the tunnel should make major delays far less frequent and easier to deal with than the deep tube network. With minor delays, quite a few services turn back at either end of the core so there should be some decent resilience for services going beyond onto the GWML/GEML and vice versa.

Chris

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Things have moved on since; it will be a plain vanilla 2 track railway that keeps to the north of the existing North Kent line, and terminates in two new platforms alongisde and to the north of the existing station. Makes it considerably less disruptive to build and maintain, and quite a bit cheaper.

I was at Abbey Wood this morning and took this picture. Looks to me like it shows no room to the North of the station unless it's going to be one of:

(1) One single track only (and a very narrow bay platform between it and the North Kent platform)
(2) Completely get rid of the gardens on the neighbouring flats - and have the windows of the flats looking out straight onto the station - which seems very unlikely (and unfair to the residents).
(3) Stick the CrossRail platforms right at the western end of the existing platforms - very inconvenient for passengers if the station entrance stays where it is.

 

[dosxuk]

I'm really surprised there is no ability to crossover from Custom House to Paddington. So if a passenger falls I'll or something happens at say Paddingdon they'll have to suspend service from Paddington to Stratford/Custom House.

Unless this is a very simple layout that's not got full details on it?

I'm going to go with the latter, as there's plenty of information about there being a crossover at Canary Wharf, and there's lots of press coverage about Crossrail having to move a "crossover cavern" from under building's a Barbican to under the Barbican lake.

Wikipedia:

A 165-metre (541 ft) long scissor crossover at the western end of the station will enable trains to terminate at Canary Wharf and return either to central London or to Abbey Wood.

From the Barbican Association:

The new scheme confirmed the expectation that the crossover cavern was to move from underneath Defoe House to a location underneath the Eastern lake, between Gilbert House and Willoughby House. In addition, the change of crossover cavern location rendered unnecessary the worksite to support a shaft at the junction of Aldersgate St and Beech St. Both the shaft and attendant worksite have become redundant with the relocation of the cavern.

London Reconnections had this to say:

The first covers the 6.2km stretch from Royal Oak Portal (west of Paddington Station) to Farringdon. It is planned to be a 58-month project and includes provision for a shaft and crossover junction at Fisher Street

Fisher Street is just round the corner from Holborn station

 

[Martin222002]

...and this attachment shows the eventual track layout to Abbey Wood.

Thanks for that swt_passenger. An interesting look.

Out of interest is there similar one for the Crossrail route to Shenfield? I've seen the one for the GWML, so I wondered if there was one similar for the GEML to Shenfield?

 

[pablo]

"Have a look at http://www.crossrail.co.uk/assets/library/document/a/original/abbey_wood_station.pdf for Abbey Wood."

This drawing is misleading, in that it points to the North Kent Lines without actually showing them.

Things have moved on since; it will be a plain vanilla 2 track railway that keeps to the north of the existing North Kent line, and terminates in two new platforms alongisde and to the north of the existing station. Makes it considerably less disruptive to build and maintain, and quite a bit cheaper.

It's obvious that that can't be done without demolishing the flats.

 

[Class377/5]

I'm going to go with the latter, as there's plenty of information about there being a crossover at Canary Wharf, and there's lots of press coverage about Crossrail having to move a "crossover cavern" from under building's a Barbican to under the Barbican lake.

I though it would be operationally disastrous to hav nothing to turn around in case something happens because it will happen!

 

[RobShipway]

I though it would be operationally disastrous to hav nothing to turn around in case something happens because it will happen!

It is going to be operationally disasterous anyway, certainly at the Maidenhead where the trains will have to cross the tracks to get too and from the sidings which I believe will delay trains stopping at Maidenhead on the way to London.

 

[OxtedL]

What on Earth are you on about?

Maidenhead is supposed to get turnback sidings in between the Relief lines, removing most possibility of such delay.

Moves to and from the carriage sidings aren't going to be that frequent and especially not at busy times.

I'm a bit puzzled how you imagine sidings work on the rest of the railway if it's "operationally disastrous" every time they have to be used.

Behold.

 

[Class377/5]

Things have moved on since; it will be a plain vanilla 2 track railway that keeps to the north of the existing North Kent line, and terminates in two new platforms alongisde and to the north of the existing station. Makes it considerably less disruptive to build and maintain, and quite a bit cheaper.

The new issue of Modern Rilwsy has a Crossrail special and it shows (on page 59) of the track layout from Plumstead to Thamesmead Foot Bridge (east of Abbey Wood). Shows links between Crossrail and the 3rd NR intrastructure with platforms just as Rick describes.

The article also states it was part price but other half if the reason is the Crossrail sidings to the north of the Plumstead Portal so trains can be stabled there instead of having to go to Old Oak Common.

 

[Bald Rick]

The new issue of Modern Rilwsy has a Crossrail special and it shows (on page 59) of the track layout from Plumstead to Thamesmead Foot Bridge (east of Abbey Wood). Shows links between Crossrail and the 3rd NR intrastructure with platforms just as Rick.

Haven't seen that (must renew subscription!); does it also show the new crossover on the NK lines that enables trains to turn back at Abbey Wood from the east? It's been insisted on so that in the event of any engineering work on the NK line west thereof, passengers can still get to London via Crossrail.

 

[Class377/5]

Haven't seen that (must renew subscription!); does it also show the new crossover on the NK lines that enables trains to turn back at Abbey Wood from the east? It's been insisted on so that in the event of any engineering work on the NK line west thereof, passengers can still get to London via Crossrail.

Yes it does. Also makes shows clear through working from up 'Crossrail line' onto the down 'North Kent line' if that makes sense? with the down North Kent line also able to become the up Croosline in the future.

Do you know how much of the new tack layout is going to be 3rd rail?

 

[Waverley125]

I would have thought that the most sensible termination of the SE crossrail branch would be to run it out to Gravesend, and to upgrade Northfleet station with a big overbridge & travelators to connect it into Ebbsfleet international.

 

[Daz28]

I would have thought that the most sensible termination of the SE crossrail branch would be to run it out to Gravesend, and to upgrade Northfleet station with a big overbridge & travelators to connect it into Ebbsfleet international.

Hear hear, when you look at where those two stations are relative to each other, it is a huge opportunity lost that they are not a proper interchange.

 

[Class377/5]

I would have thought that the most sensible termination of the SE crossrail branch would be to run it out to Gravesend, and to upgrade Northfleet station with a big overbridge & travelators to connect it into Ebbsfleet international.

Ebbsfleet is the 'final' SE Crossrail destination like Reading is out west. Was cut to keep costs down.

 

[Stats]

Ebbsfleet is the 'final' SE Crossrail destination like Reading is out west.

No, Gravesend is, hence why the route to Gravesend is safeguarded.

 

[Class377/5]

No, Gravesend is, hence why the route to Gravesend is safeguarded.

Ah, it was a plan at some point. What's the plan over serving Ebbesfleet then?

 

[Waverley125]

Given Gravesend station is east of Northfleet, I'd assume a big upgrade of Northfleet to 'plug it in' to Ebbsfleet International, plus expanding passenger facilities, and turnbacks/stabling at Gravesend.

 

[cle]

Yep I think over the years it has become Gravesend instead, probably due to there being more demand.

But it would be great to upgrade (and rename?) Northfleet, to help integrate Ebbsfleet more into the network, and also to allow good access to Kent HS and Eurostar trains from places like the City and especially Docklands and Excel.

 

[Waverley125]

Given there's only a carpark to cross, for a direct platform-platform interchange you'd need a Bridge & travelator of about 800-1000 feet to directly link the two.