Croydon Tram Crash

Discussion in 'Other Public Transport' started by 96tommy, 9 Nov 2016.

  1. daikilo

    daikilo Established Member

    Messages:
    1,523
    Joined:
    2 Feb 2010
    In theory, yes, however, there is a risk that allowing your eyes to close could also allow you to fall asleep. Also, I don't see how you can be considered to be driving "on sight" with your eyes shut.

    Looking at the video I tried to question whether they were actually shut or whether he was looking down at something just in front of him. I think the latter is possible, but again he should have been looking ahead, at least for most of the time and likely the passenger soundtrack would have been different.
     
  2. Antman

    Antman Established Member

    Messages:
    5,829
    Joined:
    3 May 2013
    Location:
    London
    I would certainly report anybody I saw using a phone when driving indeed I did report a Tramlink driver for doing so a few years ago.

    I can't see any reasonable objection to CCTV in cabs, it could be used to exonerate the driver if false allegations were made as much as anything else.
     
  3. amcluesent

    amcluesent Member

    Messages:
    877
    Joined:
    19 Dec 2010
    It's too easy to say the video shows the driver asleep - he could have had a transient ischaemic attack (TIA) or "mini stroke"

    NB these trams do have internal and external CCTV, however it was 'broken' in the one that was crashed
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 19 Nov 2016
  4. Robertj21a

    Robertj21a Established Member

    Messages:
    5,018
    Joined:
    22 Sep 2013
    Oh, that's so much better then - he wasn't asleep, just having a stroke.......

    Were you being serious ?
     
  5. 61653 HTAFC

    61653 HTAFC Established Member

    Messages:
    9,281
    Joined:
    18 Dec 2012
    Location:
    Another planet...
    I refuse to give The Scum any advertising revenue, so the only bits of the "sleepy tram driver" video I've seen are those which the BBC have shown. On this version the driver's face is obscured, making it difficult to ascertain whether he is falling asleep. If he is, this is obviously worrying. That the person filming the video sat on it until now, and then sent it to The Sun rather than BTP or TfL is also rather worrying.
     
  6. snail

    snail Established Member

    Messages:
    1,788
    Joined:
    16 Jun 2011
    Location:
    t'North
    I've decided to quote the sensible post rather than the rant. If these extra signs are meant to alert passengers as well as drivers, these questions come to mind:
    1. How many on the tram can see speed limit signs, especially in the dark?
    2. How many know what speed the tram is actually doing (especially in a tunnel where perceived speed is exaggerated by the darkness and noise)?
    3. How long would it take to alert a driver?
    4. Wouldn't the act of alerting the driver be a distraction in itself?
     
  7. mirodo

    mirodo Member

    Messages:
    459
    Joined:
    7 Nov 2011
    It can be viewed on YouTube, search for "tram driver asleep".
     
  8. bramling

    bramling Established Member

    Messages:
    5,625
    Joined:
    5 Mar 2012
    Location:
    South-east / Barnard Castle
    The problem with people reporting stuff is that a pretty good proportion of things reported turn out to be wild goose chases.

    Sometimes the reporter is mistaken - for example I'm aware of a case where someone alleged a driver was playing some kind of computer game whilst driving a train, and submitted photographic evidence which could have been seen to be supportive of the allegation. However on investigation it turned out the light was actually coming from the train's speedometer.

    Another time there was footage supporting an allegation that a driver was using a mobile phone whilst driving - turned out it was the train radio being used.

    Finally allegations come through which are simply disproven by CCTV. For example an allegation that a driver had a child in their cab with them. A long time spent looking through CCTV disproved this.

    I've no problem with people reporting things which are genuine safety concerns, however there is a little too much time-wasting unfortunately, well intentioned or otherwise.
     
  9. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

    Messages:
    23,618
    Joined:
    1 Feb 2009
    Location:
    UK
    I get that people can lie, or be mistaken, but this video was pretty conclusive - whatever the reason.
     
  10. Domh245

    Domh245 Established Member

    Messages:
    4,598
    Joined:
    6 Apr 2013
    Location:
    Wolverhampton
    Driver from the Sun video has been suspended

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-38040186

     
    Last edited by a moderator: 20 Nov 2016
  11. Comstock

    Comstock Member

    Messages:
    278
    Joined:
    19 Jun 2012
    I'm probably alone in this, but I do feel a wee bit sorry for the guy if he had tried to sleep the previous evening but just couldn't. Obviously if he was hungover or had a late night, my sympathy evaporates instantly...
     
  12. londonbridge

    londonbridge Member

    Messages:
    774
    Joined:
    30 Jun 2010
    On today's five o'clock news on the news channel the video was indeed shown with the drivers face obscured as described, however an hour later at six it was shown with his face unobscured!

    On the five, the newsreader (Maxine Mawhinney) also made an unfortunate slip of the tounge when she said that "The incident, reportedly filmed in April, happened on the same line in Croydon where seven people were killed last night".
     
  13. Robertj21a

    Robertj21a Established Member

    Messages:
    5,018
    Joined:
    22 Sep 2013
    Correct, you are probably alone in that.
     
  14. Antman

    Antman Established Member

    Messages:
    5,829
    Joined:
    3 May 2013
    Location:
    London
    No your not alone, I thought much the same.

    As I'm sure we all know tiredness can come on at any time, driving a car you pull over and have a nap but if you're driving a tram?
     
  15. DaleCooper

    DaleCooper Established Member

    Messages:
    2,785
    Joined:
    2 Mar 2015
    Location:
    No.664 - Next door to the Beast
    Including after a meal, I've been caught out like that many times, even mid-afternoon.
     
  16. neonison

    neonison Member

    Messages:
    226
    Joined:
    25 Feb 2007
    Location:
    Standedge, One hill, four tunnels
    ...such as a police car, for instance. Another group who are expected to work long days, are subjected to frequent shift changes and where the concept of rest days is up for change if something kicks off.
     
  17. Busaholic

    Busaholic Established Member

    Messages:
    7,642
    Joined:
    7 Jun 2014
    I mentioned this in one of my first posts on this forum, but, given the latest 'news' I'll repeat it here. Long time ago, but that's irrelevant. Early 1970s, I was management trainee with London Transport and had a stint with the Underground side: first posting at Earl's Court with Piccadilly and District lines, out with District Inspector at Hammersmith, and an eastbound Picc came in, stopped correctly, doors opened. Then the train started moving backwards, doors still open. We were on the District platform, but right opposite the driver's cab, and saw the driver apparently asleep. I'd estimate the train moved back about 20 feet before the D.I. went over (I wouldn't say rushed) and knocked on the cab window, which seemed to wake the driver from his slumbers but imo just as a drunk would rouse i.e. he still seemed half gone. The D.I., who was probably one of the most laid-back individuals I've ever come across, mouthed from the other side of the window to ask if the driver was OK, he nodded, and the train went off again as though nothing had happened, no report, no comeback. I've got to say I was shocked by the whole thing, but the D.I.'s word was gospel and who was I to argue? He was about to retire, he wanted an easy time, but the fact I can still recall the details 45 years later shows I still feel shame that I didn't kick up more of a fuss - the very minimum I think he should have done was to go into the cab to establish whether the driver was drunk, ill or just fatigued. Nothing happened to the train on its onward journey, of course, but no thanks to us.
     
  18. thedbdiboy

    thedbdiboy Member

    Messages:
    424
    Joined:
    10 Sep 2011
    I travelled from Birkbeck to Croydon town centre on the tram today - on the approaches to the curves requiring augmented measures there are now approach controlled flashing beacons attached to the catenary masts. They will undoubtedly be much more obvious on a dark and stormy night than the fixed signage on it's own.
     
  19. urpert

    urpert Member

    Messages:
    784
    Joined:
    1 Dec 2015
    Location:
    Zone 4
    That's interesting. There have been blue flashing SPAD beacons on the system for some time - are these the same beacons, just switched on at all times, or something different?
     
  20. edwin_m

    edwin_m Veteran Member

    Messages:
    14,037
    Joined:
    21 Apr 2013
    Location:
    Nottingham
    I sincerely hope they are a different colour - if they same the effectiveness of the SPAD lights is severely reduced.
     
  21. Shaw S Hunter

    Shaw S Hunter Established Member

    Messages:
    1,962
    Joined:
    21 Apr 2016
    Location:
    Sunny South Lancs
    Sounds like such a simple idea. In theory. But in practice it would soon lead to regular staff shortages on late shift and probably require an enhanced rate of pay to deal with in the longer term. Back in the day when rates of pay were somewhat lower certain "anti-social" shifts would have paid a shift supplement but such things have long since been consolidated into basic pay. And everyone should work their fair share of undesirable turns.

    The real answer is for rostering to take much greater account of fatigue as an issue as opposed to seeking to construct rosters in a way that is most financially beneficial to the employer as first priority. Many ways to achieve this of course but you can bet if unions attempt to impose stricter limits on how staff are rostered then the anti-union lobby are soon accusing them of outdated inflexibility. Do we really want to wait until fatigue is identified as a significant factor in an accident?

    Just to add that the issue of fatigue also exists among airline flightcrew and very much so in the bus industry.
     
  22. AlterEgo

    AlterEgo Veteran Member

    Messages:
    11,381
    Joined:
    30 Dec 2008
    Location:
    Milton Keynes
    Seems like they've taken the RAIB's interim advice.
     
  23. 507 001

    507 001 Established Member

    Messages:
    1,063
    Joined:
    3 Dec 2008
    Location:
    Huyton
    Metrolink does have a few permanent early and permanent late links (2 at each depot, each link has a 12 line roster) but the vast majority of drivers are on mixed rosters.
     
  24. matt_world2004

    matt_world2004 Established Member

    Messages:
    2,002
    Joined:
    5 Nov 2014
    Those blue flashing lights where there when I went on the tram a few years ago, I was told they flash warning of Ice so the drivers change their speed.
     
  25. 455refurb

    455refurb Member

    Messages:
    49
    Joined:
    1 Jun 2011
    Location:
    London
    Thanks, I thought that might be the case. If it's the same on the Trams, then it would suggest whatever issues the driver in this video was having managing his fatigue, he wouldn't have felt able to report them. That doesn't excuse his actions as they appear in the video in any way.

    It's speculation but possible isn't it, as presumably he'd have had to maintain pressure on the vigilance device. But terrifying right, when you look at how he's flailing around in the cab, it looks like he wasn't very far off falling completely asleep.

    Sorry, but that's a ridiculous thing to say. Next time you're on any form of public transport, observe how many passengers are glued to their phones, newspapers, napping etc, as would be expected. How the vehicle is being driven is none of their concern, that's the job of the professional up front, to do so safely. Basing any form of safety case on passenger's observations and reactions would be farcical.
     
  26. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

    Messages:
    23,618
    Joined:
    1 Feb 2009
    Location:
    UK
    After that video, I wonder how many drivers will shut the blinds from now on?
     
  27. bramling

    bramling Established Member

    Messages:
    5,625
    Joined:
    5 Mar 2012
    Location:
    South-east / Barnard Castle
    It doesn't help that some people take on jobs which they know will involve working shifts, yet then do everything they can to avoid working shifts - in particular weekends. This then leads to nonsense like working long shifts at weekends in order to give another weekend off. As an aside, I find it strange that the same individuals who obsess over getting weekends off seem very happy to work them when on overtime!
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Maybe a coincidence, but couldn't help noticing that a lot of Underground drivers seemed to have their sun blinds down quite low the last couple of days.
     
  28. Antman

    Antman Established Member

    Messages:
    5,829
    Joined:
    3 May 2013
    Location:
    London
    The only blind behind the driver is a mesh type thing to prevent reflections, it won't stop passengers being able to look through.

    I'm sure drivers are well aware that they will be under more scrutiny than ever after recent events.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Whilst it varies between operators, and indeed individual garages, some bus drivers are on permanent early, middle or late shifts and many 24 hour supermarket distribution centres operate the same way. Some people do actually prefer late shifts.
     
  29. 45669

    45669 Member

    Messages:
    403
    Joined:
    26 Jul 2010
    Location:
    Farnborough.
    Not on the M25 it's not!
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    When I used to go to conferences, seminars, courses, etc., the first session after lunch was always known as 'the graveyard session'. I expect it still is.

    Now I'm retired I go to a railway / transport meeting one afternoon a month where we usually have a talk, slide shows etc. Several of the attendees miss half the show because they've nodded off. (And not just when I'm giving the talk / slide show!)
     
  30. matt_world2004

    matt_world2004 Established Member

    Messages:
    2,002
    Joined:
    5 Nov 2014
    It is because the sun is rising later in the day and setting earlier so it is more likely to be rising or setting when you are travelling, Assuming you are travelling normal commuter hours.
     

Share This Page