Croydon Tram Crash

[Domh245]

Point 2 mentions "research into active means of detecting the attention state of drivers and intervening in the event of inattention" (my emphasis), so it's rather a dead man's handle than a camera.
We'll see...

In this context, I would take active to mean non-passive. A deadman's handle is (I would argue) a passive system. It is activated to prove alertness, and deactivated to prove either a lack of alertness or the driver's hand coming off the handle. A camera and seat shaker are more active in that they are constantly analysing the driver's face to try and ascertain how alert they are.

I would have also thought that the line about "we are pleased to see some tram operators starting to work on these" would have been referring to these devices, although I will admit that I haven't really paid any attention to any other tramways that may or may not be doing some of the other items on the list as well. But like you said, we'll see.

 

[ComUtoR]

In this context, I would take active to mean non-passive. A deadman's handle is (I would argue) a passive system. It is activated to prove alertness, and deactivated to prove either a lack of alertness or the driver's hand coming off the handle. A camera and seat shaker are more active in that they are constantly analysing the driver's face to try and ascertain how alert they are.

An old deadmans handle or a modern DSD pedal ?

 

[Domh245]

An old deadmans handle or a modern DSD pedal ?

All of the tram systems that I am aware of use an old deadmans handle. A DSD style pedal could be problematic on trams, as there are already a number of pedals for the driver already - one each for the Bell and the Horn and there is usually a third one as well.

 

[ComUtoR]

Cheers for that.

Additionally, is there a Vigilance system (audible alert) Our DSD has a Vigilance system attached. You must reset the DSD when it sounds. This is in part because the old deadmans was too easy to circumvent. I would argue ours is both active and passive. If a Tram doesnt have a vigilance then could that be considered to be an active system ?

 

[edwin_m]

Any sort of overspeed monitoring system would no doubt also include a recording function, at least when it was triggered and possibly the rest of the time too. So it could be used by management to monitor driver behaviour just like a camera.

 

[Adlington]

Monitoring may be useful after an acccident, dead's man handle, or a modern equivalent, may prevent it.

 

[Caterpillar]

The Guardian system has been activated since 25th September.

Approximately 20-25 reports of following issues:

Dry eyes
Tired feeling eyes
Head aches
Feeling of something in your eye
Increased rate of blinking and need to rub eyes

2/3 drivers have had sick time and have consulted opticians or doctor.
1 driver may have an occular lesion. Being treated as coincidence.

System still active. Aslef still in dispute.

 

[paddington]

It might have been posted before, but this thread is quite long - so what are drivers' shift patterns like?

Why do drivers need to change their shift patterns all the time?

I know that in hospitals some nurses only ever work nights, and some only ever work days.

Why can't the same driver always do a 0400-1000 shift or a 2000-0200 shift? Is it legal to incentivise working less social hours with higher pay?

 

[Caterpillar]

There are drivers on permanent earlies (0400 - 0600) starts, middles and lates (1700- start). Some drivers do the full range of the rota.

The problem is the pattern, with regular 7 day working periods, split rest days (one day off) and appalling shift change. For instance, on main rota you work :
Wednesday late (0130-0200) finish.
Thursday rest day.
Friday early (0400 start)
Inc of the Friday, you work next 7 days.

Split rest days are useless and one feels like like its a continual period of work, so 10 days. Its a small system and often you do 3 of the same duty 3 days in a row, this is very tiresome and sometimes you don't know whether you're coming or going. Drivers have been complaining about this for 17 years and the pattern has not changed.

 

[Caterpillar]

I agree.

Excessive speed caused this accident.

I would respectfully disagree. The overspeed was the result of another factor. This factor is the root cause.

The primary cause is either the driver became disorientated ( thinking he was coming out the other end of the tunnel or not actually knowing his location). Going east through tunnel at full line speed, one has ages (20 secs ish) to brake for the bend. Going west(accident direction) 2 seconds on exiting tunnel you are in trouble and will not make the bend at correct speed. Or driver had a medical collapse or micro sleep.

 

[Antman]

There are drivers on permanent earlies (0400 - 0600) starts, middles and lates (1700- start). Some drivers do the full range of the rota.

The problem is the pattern, with regular 7 day working periods, split rest days (one day off) and appalling shift change. For instance, on main rota you work :
Wednesday late (0130-0200) finish.
Thursday rest day.
Friday early (0400 start)
Inc of the Friday, you work next 7 days.

Split rest days are useless and one feels like like its a continual period of work, so 10 days. Its a small system and often you do 3 of the same duty 3 days in a row, this is very tiresome and sometimes you don't know whether you're coming or going. Drivers have been complaining about this for 17 years and the pattern has not changed.

I think 7 days in a row really is unacceptable and I can quite understand drivers becoming fatigued.

 

[Caterpillar]

I think 7 days in a row really is unacceptable and I can quite understand drivers becoming fatigued.

It gets worse, until recently (Aug 2017) drivers were allowed to work 12 days in a row. By working rest days, so one could argue they are partially responsible. But in my view company should not have permitted it. The company have now banned this practice, however one can still work 9 in a row.

 

[Mojo]

I think 7 days in a row really is unacceptable and I can quite understand drivers becoming fatigued.

There is nothing wrong with working 7 days in a row; my roster contains this for the majority of weeks as it facilitates longer periods of time off and in the case of nights only messing up your life the minimum number of occasions possible.

 

[Clip]

There is nothing wrong with working 7 days in a row; my roster contains this for the majority of weeks as it facilitates longer periods of time off and in the case of nights only messing up your life the minimum number of occasions possible.

indeed quite a few people out there I suspect in both light and heavy rail would do 7 in a row with some rdw thrown in - not unusual at all

 

[Antman]

There is nothing wrong with working 7 days in a row; my roster contains this for the majority of weeks as it facilitates longer periods of time off and in the case of nights only messing up your life the minimum number of occasions possible.

Lorry drivers wouldn't be able to work 7 days in a row so why should public transport operatives?

 

[bramling]

There is nothing wrong with working 7 days in a row; my roster contains this for the majority of weeks as it facilitates longer periods of time off and in the case of nights only messing up your life the minimum number of occasions possible.

This is the problem - people will subject themselves to excessive work patterns in order to get "quality time" off. I know places where it starts with seven night shifts in a row, which one can understand, then it becomes 12 hours at weekends in order to get an extra weekend off somewhere in the roster, then the start time for the weeknights creeps an hour or two earlier in order so that certain people can "get to see my kids after work" when on late turn. All of a sudden the working week for nights is now over 70 hours, and it's hard to make a convincing case that anyone can be at their best in that situation. This sort of arrangement is very common in signalling and incident response roles.

Another example is minimising the number of weekends worked by maximising the amount of work on weekend duties. Then people moan like hell on the occasions when they do work, "the weekend duties are terrible", the inevitable consequence of that then ends up being higher sickness on weekends, so the spares start getting hammered.

In all the above examples this is stuff that *staff* have brought in, not management. Can't comment on the specifics of Tramlink however, as their setup is not something I've had any dealings with.

 

[Antman]

This is the problem - people will subject themselves to excessive work patterns in order to get "quality time" off. I know places where it starts with seven night shifts in a row, which one can understand, then it becomes 12 hours at weekends in order to get an extra weekend off somewhere in the roster, then the start time for the weeknights creeps an hour or two earlier in order so that certain people can "get to see my kids after work" when on late turn. All of a sudden the working week for nights is now over 70 hours, and it's hard to make a convincing case that anyone can be at their best in that situation. This sort of arrangement is very common in signalling and incident response roles.

Another example is minimising the number of weekends worked by maximising the amount of work on weekend duties. Then people moan like hell on the occasions when they do work, "the weekend duties are terrible", the inevitable consequence of that then ends up being higher sickness on weekends, so the spares start getting hammered.

In all the above examples this is stuff that *staff* have brought in, not management. Can't comment on the specifics of Tramlink however, as their setup is not something I've had any dealings with.

I think you've summed it up very well, some people might want to work 7 days a week for their own reasons but in todays climate of H&S I find it remarkable that anybody in a safety critical job is allowed to do so?

 

[bramling]

I think you've summed it up very well, some people might want to work 7 days a week for their own reasons but in todays climate of H&S I find it remarkable that anybody in a safety critical job is allowed to do so?

It doesn't really happen on trains as the safety culture is sufficiently tight. However, long weeks of work are very common in other parts of the industry, especially in signaling and control, which is very much safety-critical. No idea how tram systems fit in to this, as from what I know (perhaps wrong) their rostering arrangements seem to fit in more with road rather than rail.

Having said all the above, I know a railway location where the roster has something like 5x night shifts, then the very next day after the nights finish the roster has the person back in working a late turn. It works on paper as there's 12 hours rest between the end of the last night duty and the start of the late duty. Being cynical, it might be added that the union reps that agreed to (*) this arrangement live very local to the depot concerned.

(* I use this in the loosest possible sense - in reality it's more a case of railroaded this arrangement in to meet their own personal needs!).

Personally, I don't have an issue with 7x 8-hour shifts. However the moment it goes beyond this I think it starts getting too much. 12-hour shifts are tiring, not so much being at work for 12 hours, but because of the lack of time to fully rest in between as well as time to carry out basic living tasks. But, as I say, some people will agree to anything if it gets them an extra weekend off, or whatever, no matter how many weekends they already get off it's never enough.

 

[Mojo]

Lorry drivers wouldn't be able to work 7 days in a row so why should public transport operatives?

Well for a start a road vehicle operative needs to be fully attentive at all times, if they drift off then the lorry will probably come out of its lane and collide with another vehicle or come off the road. Not saying that a rail vehicle operator doesn't need to be, far from it, but with the in built safety systems and guidance the consequences of a momentary lapse in concentration are much reduced.

I think you've summed it up very well, some people might want to work 7 days a week for their own reasons but in todays climate of H&S I find it remarkable that anybody in a safety critical job is allowed to do so?

Changing shifts (normally the first day or so) of a specific duty is what makes me feel tired. I'd feel much more tired if I had to keep changing shifts rather than grouping them together.

It doesn't really happen on trains as the safety culture is sufficiently tight. However, long weeks of work are very common in other parts of the industry, especially in signaling and control, which is very much safety-critical.

Plenty of Train Operators on the Underground work 10 days on 4 days off via the syndicate, and these are typically the ones that also do the longer shifts as they get half of their weekends off.

 

[bramling]

Plenty of Train Operators on the Underground work 10 days on 4 days off via the syndicate, and these are typically the ones that also do the longer shifts as they get half of their weekends off.

One does wonder what the figures may show regarding the likelihood of such individuals having operating incidents. A much more healthy mafia shift pattern would be someone regularly having, say, Sunday and Monday as rest days followed by five shifts. Comes back to cake and eat it too mentality, some people will sign up to anything if it suits their personal circumstances, then wonder why they start having incidents.

 

[philthetube]

I think you've summed it up very well, some people might want to work 7 days a week for their own reasons but in todays climate of H&S I find it remarkable that anybody in a safety critical job is allowed to do so?

You have to look at what working 7 days in a row actually means or does not mean, because of variables caused by 7 days in a week and reduced requirements at weekends rest days cannot always be consecutive. Imagine resting Tues Thurs and working earlies starting at 4am. On your two rest days you still need to be in bed at 7.30pm in order to get your eight hours sleep, this is not going to happen as most staff want some sort of social life, even if just an evening in front of the telly with the wife/husband.

The Raib have changed their views on this, they now feel it is safer for staff to work an extended period of nights rather than 2 or 3. This is because there is a much higher risk or incidents on the first night shift worked.

 

[bramling]

You have to look at what working 7 days in a row actually means or does not mean, because of variables caused by 7 days in a week and reduced requirements at weekends rest days cannot always be consecutive. Imagine resting Tues Thurs and working earlies starting at 4am. On your two rest days you still need to be in bed at 7.30pm in order to get your eight hours sleep, this is not going to happen as most staff want some sort of social life, even if just an evening in front of the telly with the wife/husband.

I can see both sides of the fence. However what I keep coming back to is that people are happy to take the money that comes as compensation for working shifts, but a hardcore of people then moan and bitch that they actually have to work unsociable shift patterns, and will do anything to try and get things to an arrangement which suits them. Anything, literally anything, for a weekend rest day, or to finish a late turn early, and a massive amount of fuss trying to get Christmas, Easter, three half terms, summer, popular sport fixtures, etc etc, off. Everyone else then have to suffer silly shift arrangements because of these individuals, hearing things like "I *need* weekends off so I can see my kid" or similar, in an effort to guilt-trip others into not objecting.

The irony is that the self-same individuals who will do literally anything to get a weekend off are normally the first ones to be scrutinising sheets ready to swoop on the possibility of overtime. All of a sudden weekends become the first choice of shift!

 

[Antman]

You have to look at what working 7 days in a row actually means or does not mean, because of variables caused by 7 days in a week and reduced requirements at weekends rest days cannot always be consecutive. Imagine resting Tues Thurs and working earlies starting at 4am. On your two rest days you still need to be in bed at 7.30pm in order to get your eight hours sleep, this is not going to happen as most staff want some sort of social life, even if just an evening in front of the telly with the wife/husband.

The Raib have changed their views on this, they now feel it is safer for staff to work an extended period of nights rather than 2 or 3. This is because there is a much higher risk or incidents on the first night shift worked.

I see your point but it's just the physical effort of getting up for work 7 days in a row. For instance I'd much rather do 4 x 10 hour days than 5 x 8 hour days.

 

[HSTEd]

I would be very iffy about whether shining an infrared light into someones eyes for hours at a time is a good idea.

 

[Clip]

I would be very iffy about whether shining an infrared light into someones eyes for hours at a time is a good idea.

Why? go and look into your remote control at home and see how low level the light is

 

[Chris M]

Do you spend hours looking at your TV remote control? 8-12 hours? Up to seven days in a row?

 

[HSTEd]

Why? go and look into your remote control at home and see how low level the light is

I don't tend to hold down a button on a remote control whilst staring down the barrel of the transmitter LED for hours at a time, every day do I?

 

[Clip]

Try it and find out. Just one look into it will realise its not goin to harm you

 

[rebmcr]

Looking at human skin is shining IR into your eyes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Looking at almost anything that isn’t at absolute zero is.

Is the OP thinking of UV which would be harmful.