Croydon Tram vs Car

[Lockwood]

Saw this news story shared on social media.

Terrifying footage shows car smashing into tram and derailing it in Croydon town centre in Wellesley Road

http://www.croydonguardian.co.uk/ne...tram_and_derailing_it_in_Croydon_town_centre/

At least four people were injured in the crash, which happened during torrential rain last night.
[...]
A firefighter from Croydon station said the impact of the collision "was so great it lifted and moved the tram about 15 feet" off the tracks.

A man and a woman, believed to be travelling in the car, were taken to St George's Hospital as a priority, a London Ambulance (LAS) spokeswoman said.

Two further patients were taken to Croydon University Hospital.


A Metropolitan Police spokesman originally said a baby was among the injured, although later said they were unsure if this was the case.

No one was thought to have suffered life-threatening injuries.

Did the car not see it? It's big and green and white.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Did the car not see it? It's big and green and white.

Big, yes, but green and white are not very contrasting and will look sort of greyish in adverse weather - the original red and white livery involved a far higher contrast level and would have stood out far more obviously wouldn't it?

This does not, of course, excuse the fact that the car driver must have ignored a red light and from looking at the video was clearly going too fast for the conditions.


Edited to add: That tram could probably have been lit up like one of the Blackpool illuminated examples and the car driver would probably have still ploughed into it.

 

[edwin_m]

Big, yes, but green and white are not very contrasting and will look sort of greyish in adverse weather - the original red and white livery involved a far higher contrast level and would have stood out far more obviously wouldn't it?

This does not, of course, excuse the fact that the car driver must have ignored a red light and from looking at the video was clearly going too fast for the conditions.


Edited to add: That tram could probably have been lit up like one of the Blackpool illuminated examples and the car driver would probably have still ploughed into it.

They have yellow marker lights down the sides plus the interior lighting. An HGV would have been much less visible and much less forgiving to the occupants of the car.

Didn't really push it 15 feet though - derailed the front bogie which then carried on in a straight line while the track curved away. Magnetic brakes become less effective when one set doesn't have a steel rail underneath it.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Didn't really push it 15 feet though - derailed the front bogie which then carried on in a straight line while the track curved away. Magnetic brakes become less effective when one set doesn't have a steel rail underneath it.

Yes, that's obvious from the video.

The yellow side lights you refer to - having observed them a number of times, I'm not sure how visible they would be in driving rain with high winds and a lot of spray when there are already going to be a lot of reflections around at ground level. the interior lighting , again, was probably less noticable than usual in the conditions.

I am assuming here that the weather in Croydon was rather similar to the weather we had in Epsom at around the same time last night, given that the place is only 10 miles to the east of us?

Having said that, I do again - based on the video clip - blame the car driver for this prang.

 

[theageofthetra]

Whats the speed limit there? Certainly looks like the silver car is doing well over 50 and presumably jumping a red light. Hope tram driver and pax were ok.

 

[grid56126]

Whats the speed limit there? Certainly looks like the silver car is doing well over 50 and presumably jumping a red light. Hope tram driver and pax were ok.

It's 30. Wellesley Road Southbound is almost impossible to breach this as traffic light phasing prevents it (there are more side turns) until after the tram crossing into the underpass.

Northbound, that this occurred on is very different with people doing 50+ out of the underpass being quite common at any time of day and if the lights where the tram is crossing are clear or changing down people will go for it to beat a tram, especially when quiet like this was. During the day it's much more congested at this point.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Unless I'm very much mistaken, it looks like the silver car might just have been racing the blue car which came into shot just as the tram derailed. The blue car also seemed to be going very fast and didn't stop at the line.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

Update from the Croydon Advertiser:

"A woman has been arrested on suspicion of drink-driving after a car smashed into a tram at high speed, derailing it in Croydon town centre.

It has also emerged that a young child was travelling in the Ford Focus at the time of the crash in Wellesley Road, at the junction with Station Road, on Sunday night."

 

[jopsuk]

In the video there's a red car stopped at the lights. Never mind theoretical discussions of the visibility of the tram- a speeding drunk driver ran a red light.

Looks like high speed running of the red lights is a common issue? Good location for speed and red light enforcement cameras?

 

[Shimbleshanks]

In the video there's a red car stopped at the lights. Never mind theoretical discussions of the visibility of the tram- a speeding drunk driver ran a red light.

Looks like high speed running of the red lights is a common issue? Good location for speed and red light enforcement cameras?

Croydon has loads of enforcement cameras but they're mainly to make money for the council by fleecing basically law-abiding motorists, not to improve road safety. Eg I got fined £60 for momentarily driving into the deserted markets area on a Sunday and another for lingering five minutes in a loading bay on a Saturday outside our local KFC. But if you want to speed, jump red lights and do genuinely dangerous stuff, you'll be fine...

 

[Busaholic]

Croydon has loads of enforcement cameras but they're mainly to make money for the council by fleecing basically law-abiding motorists, not to improve road safety. Eg I got fined £60 for momentarily driving into the deserted markets area on a Sunday and another for lingering five minutes in a loading bay on a Saturday outside our local KFC. But if you want to speed, jump red lights and do genuinely dangerous stuff, you'll be fine...

I watched Croydon's parking operatives giving out tickets on a Sunday morning at 1a.m.,on single yellow lines, as the restriction on parking there only stopped at 2 a.m.!

On the subject of tram colours, I find it weird when TfL are so exercised on all the buses being painted in unrelieved red that they could allow what was a good livery in that colour to be replaced by one that will look washed out after a short while, especially in bad weather conditions.

 

[hounddog]

I got fined £60 for momentarily driving into the deserted markets area on a Sunday and another for lingering five minutes in a loading bay on a Saturday outside our local KFC.

So not law-abiding then. Just volunteering to pay an idiot tax.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

So not law-abiding then. Just volunteering to pay an idiot tax.

More like involuntarily helping to prop up a dysfunctional council and its equally dysfunctional (and in places downright dangerous) transport system.

It's only law-abiding mugs like me who pay fines; the really dangerous drivers - of which there are many in this town - get off scot-free because they're not insured and their cars aren't registered of course. We pay some of the highest council tax in the country and have some of the highest parking charges.

 

[grid56126]

More like involuntarily helping to prop up a dysfunctional council and its equally dysfunctional (and in places downright dangerous) transport system.

It's only law-abiding mugs like me who pay fines; the really dangerous drivers - of which there are many in this town - get off scot-free because they're not insured and their cars aren't registered of course. We pay some of the highest council tax in the country and have some of the highest parking charges.

Have a go at Boris then rather than the council, he is the one who is charge of the Met. I have engaged with my local bobby recently and I was surprised at just how clued up he was about a number of road POLICING issues locally and explained how the targeted road traffic enforcement works around here.

You can go anywhere in the UK to see motorists getting away with offences constantly, Croydon is not anything special. The council just have the luxury of being able to enforce many more by dint of parking being a fairly easy thing to document. I got fined for parking illegally outside the KFC in Purley a while back, foolishly thinking that 21.00 on a Sunday wouldn't be an issue. I can hardly blame the council for my laziness when the signs were all as clear as daylight.

The 20 MPH zones start in my area soon, can't wait. At least most people will slow to 30 then.

 

[jopsuk]

You're not law abiding. You're clearly local and should know well then where you are aren't allowed to drive or park, yet you went there anyway and are upset you got caught. Well done. Thanks to cameras no policeman's time has been wasted in punishing you for breaching those rules.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

You're not law abiding. You're clearly local and should know well then where you are aren't allowed to drive or park, yet you went there anyway and are upset you got caught. Well done. Thanks to cameras no policeman's time has been wasted in punishing you for breaching those rules.

These were genuine mistakes; it's not always easy to spot signs, plates etc from the driving seat when you've got the Missus rabbitting away in your left earhole, the windows are misting up etc.

Croydon Council have a series of sneaky video cameras all over the place designed to catch out the unwary motorist in an attempt to fill up the hole in their finances. No other London borough does this on the same scale, at least none that I'm familiar with.

And it has absolutely nothing to do with 'road safety'. All these 'offences' took place at times when the streets were deserted.

Going back on thread, there have been numerous nasty - even fatal - accidents involving the trams in Croydon over the years. Mostly not the tram-driver's fault, but experience has shown that trams, buses and cars and pedestrians don't mix, at least not when Croydon Man (and Croydon Woman) are in the mix.

It all needs sorting out, but I doubt that Croydon Council are the people to do it.

 

[edwin_m]

And it has absolutely nothing to do with 'road safety'. All these 'offences' took place at times when the streets were deserted.

Going back on thread, there have been numerous nasty - even fatal - accidents involving the trams in Croydon over the years. Mostly not the tram-driver's fault, but experience has shown that trams, buses and cars and pedestrians don't mix, at least not when Croydon Man (and Croydon Woman) are in the mix.

The streets seemed pretty deserted on that video, until a tram suddenly appeared.

It would be interesting to compare the accident rate on Tramlink with that of a bus operator, normalised for on-street mileage, but I doubt the statistics are available to do so. There's no particular reason why trams should be more dangerous than other large vehicles and for pedestrians they are arguably less so, with the wheels being shielded by fairings and deflectors.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The trouble with pedestrians, though, is that a large number of them tend to wander into the road in front of things because they're too busy looking at their mobile phones to think about and check where they are going. unfortunately the tram horns don't seem to be loud enough to penetrate the headphones that a large proportion of these zombie like characters are wearing. Maybe trams should have the same horns as trains - that'll wake a few of those blinkered idiots up...

 

[Shimbleshanks]

The trouble with pedestrians, though, is that a large number of them tend to wander into the road in front of things because they're too busy looking at their mobile phones to think about and check where they are going. unfortunately the tram horns don't seem to be loud enough to penetrate the headphones that a large proportion of these zombie like characters are wearing. Maybe trams should have the same horns as trains - that'll wake a few of those blinkered idiots up...

The trams in Croydon do have a loud horn for emergencies. The bell is used only to alert other road users to the tram's presence in normal operation.

Not that even a horn has much effect when Croydon Man or Woman has had a few bevvies...

 

[anme]

Croydon has loads of enforcement cameras but they're mainly to make money for the council by fleecing basically law-abiding motorists, not to improve road safety. Eg I got fined £60 for momentarily driving into the deserted markets area on a Sunday and another for lingering five minutes in a loading bay on a Saturday outside our local KFC. But if you want to speed, jump red lights and do genuinely dangerous stuff, you'll be fine...

I'm very happy that the council is finally cracking down on car drivers. What makes you say that people who speed etc will be fine? I know plenty who have been fined.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

It's still not as loud as the horn on a main line train though is it? It's more like the ones fitted to an HGV - unless it's got two settings and I've only ever heard it being used on the lower setting even when someone steps out ten feet in front of a tram that's just started off?

 

[anme]

I watched Croydon's parking operatives giving out tickets on a Sunday morning at 1a.m.,on single yellow lines, as the restriction on parking there only stopped at 2 a.m.!

Good. Why do car drivers think they are entitled to park anywhere, any time, free of charge?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

These were genuine mistakes; it's not always easy to spot signs, plates etc from the driving seat when you've got the Missus rabbitting away in your left earhole, the windows are misting up etc.

If you are not able to see and obey signs, and concentrate while there is noise in the car, you MUST STOP. If you can't see out of a misted up window, you MUST STOP. Car drivers need to be held to the same safety standards as pilots and train drivers - if they make mistakes, they need to have their licences revoked. It's not acceptable that people are killed and maimed by these people.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

Good. Why do car drivers think they are entitled to park anywhere, any time, free of charge?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


If you are not able to see and obey signs, and concentrate while there is noise in the car, you MUST STOP. If you can't see out of a misted up window, you MUST STOP. Car drivers need to be held to the same safety standards as pilots and train drivers - if they make mistakes, they need to have their licences revoked. It's not acceptable that people are killed and maimed by these people.

Most of Croydon's cameras are designed to pick up drivers who are not doing anything remotely dangerous. Driving into a deserted markets area on a Sunday morning when nobody's about? Well, Croydon, have it your way; I don't buy anything in your shops now that I can't put on the back of my bicycle. I go to Bromley or Epson instead where my custom is appreciated. Croydon's a XXXX-hole anyway...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's still not as loud as the horn on a main line train though is it? It's more like the ones fitted to an HGV - unless it's got two settings and I've only ever heard it being used on the lower setting even when someone steps out ten feet in front of a tram that's just started off?

The problem with that might be situations where the tram driver feels the need to use the horn but it's not a desperate emergency. If you had train-style horns there would be complaints - and making people jump out of theirs skins could in itself be dangerous.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I go to Bromley or Epson instead where my custom is appreciated.

Interesting - I often end up going to Croydon to do some shopping because the range of shops in Epsom is extremely poor these days. Can't get quite a few things locally at all.

 

[Antman]

These were genuine mistakes; it's not always easy to spot signs, plates etc from the driving seat when you've got the Missus rabbitting away in your left earhole, the windows are misting up etc.

Croydon Council have a series of sneaky video cameras all over the place designed to catch out the unwary motorist in an attempt to fill up the hole in their finances. No other London borough does this on the same scale, at least none that I'm familiar with.

And it has absolutely nothing to do with 'road safety'. All these 'offences' took place at times when the streets were deserted.

Going back on thread, there have been numerous nasty - even fatal - accidents involving the trams in Croydon over the years. Mostly not the tram-driver's fault, but experience has shown that trams, buses and cars and pedestrians don't mix, at least not when Croydon Man (and Croydon Woman) are in the mix.

It all needs sorting out, but I doubt that Croydon Council are the people to do it.

I agree with you completely, in fact I shop just about anywhere other than Croydon town centre.

Got to laugh at the self righteousness of people who have probably never been there in their life

 

[edwin_m]

Having been to Croydon many times, I have to say it's not somewhere I would wish to visit if I didn't have to.

 

[Busaholic]

The trams in Croydon do have a loud horn for emergencies. The bell is used only to alert other road users to the tram's presence in normal operation.

Not that even a horn has much effect when Croydon Man or Woman has had a few bevvies...

The bell was very much a last minute addition to the original batch of trams. Its sounding almost certainly saved the life of a toddler when the very first tram journey on service was made back in May 2000. The toddler came rushing out from North End beside the almshouses as the tram, full of civic dignitaries, came out of George Street. I know, because I was behind the mother and toddler and was amazed to see this entirely unannounced happening on a Wednesday lunchtime. The mother screamed and the child had enough presence of mind to execute a sharp u-turn. Then I was able to establish via a chalk=written notice on a blackboard at the George Street stop that the first journey open to members of the public was an hour hence and I was thus able to be on it! Now why didn't I go and purchase a one-use camera? Also, why was it free on the first day when I so desperately wanted to purchase a ticket?!

 

[theageofthetra]

The driver was drunk and had a child in the car.http://m.croydonguardian.co.uk/news...shes_into_tram_and_derails_it_in_town_centre/