Cruise ships and vaccination requirements

[nedchester]

Saga requires all cruise customers to have Covid vaccine

Group serving over-50s will only allow people to travel after receiving two doses of jab

www.ft.com

Saga, the travel group targeting the over-50s, has become the first holiday business to insist that all of its customers must be vaccinated against coronavirus before they embark on its cruises. The company, whose customers are primarily in the UK, said on Wednesday that it had told holidaymakers they must be fully inoculated against the virus at least 14 days before travelling and take a pre-departure Covid-19 test.

“Given that many of our customers are in the priority age range and we’ve done calculations based on what government has said, we think shortly after beginning of May almost all of customers will have received a second vaccination,” said Nick Stace, chief executive of Saga’s travel arm.

Pfizer says the first dose of its vaccine delivers 89 per cent efficacy 15-21 days after it is administered and the second dose lifts protection to 95 per cent

Last week, Saga did a survey of 2,000 customers which showed that 98 per cent were in favour of making vaccination compulsory before guests embarked....

I could see this coming a mile off and expect that insurers will also not be offering cover if you've not been vaccinated.

Not sure how this works for holiday companies who offer holidays for younger people who haven't been offered the vaccine yet.

 

[py_megapixel]

If anyone has an FT subscription could they possibly quote the relevant part of the article? It seems to be behind a paywall.

 

[bramling]

Saga requires all cruise customers to have Covid vaccine

Group serving over-50s will only allow people to travel after receiving two doses of jab

www.ft.com

Saga, the travel group targeting the over-50s, has become the first holiday business to insist that all of its customers must be vaccinated against coronavirus before they embark on its cruises. The company, whose customers are primarily in the UK, said on Wednesday that it had told holidaymakers they must be fully inoculated against the virus at least 14 days before travelling and take a pre-departure Covid-19 test. The requirement means customers must have had two doses of vaccine. The UK government has controversially stretched the time between vaccine doses by up to 12 weeks, breaching the recommended guidelines laid down by vaccine makers and raising questions about effectiveness. Saga said that it had delayed the start of its holiday programme until May “to allow our customers time to get vaccinated”. Coronavirus: the race between vaccines and new variants “Given that many of our customers are in the priority age range and we’ve done calculations based on what government has said, we think shortly after beginning of May almost all of customers will have received a second vaccination,” said Nick Stace, chief executive of Saga’s travel arm. Pfizer says the first dose of its vaccine delivers 89 per cent efficacy 15-21 days after it is administered and the second dose lifts protection to 95 per cent. But it says it has no trial data confirming 89 per cent protection is extended beyond day 21 without a second dose. Last week, Saga did a survey of 2,000 customers which showed that 98 per cent were in favour of making vaccination compulsory before guests embarked. To encourage customers back to its ships, Saga has invested in its on-board air conditioning to keep air circulating and doubled its medical teams. It has also cut capacity on board from 999 passengers to 800 and introduced a door-to-door chauffeur service for travellers who live within 250 miles of their departure port. Recommended Coronavirus treatment Covid vaccine tracker: The shots available and the doses administered The measures come as cruise companies struggle to kickstart operations after almost a year without any bookings. Attempts to start offering some itineraries in Europe last autumn came to a halt as the virus’ second wave took hold. Many holiday businesses have opened up bookings for their 2022 travel programmes early in the hope of recouping funds through deposits customers pay at the time of booking. Mr Stace said that Saga had seen a “surge of bookings and a surge of enquiries” since the acceleration of the vaccine rollout. The UK government has insisted that all people over the age of 70 will have had their first vaccination by mid-February. According to a report from the research consultancy Maritime Strategies International, only 7.5m people took cruises in 2020, compared with almost 30m in 2019. MSI said that it expected 11.9m people to take a cruise this year. Saga, which is struggling under a heavy debt load due to its previous private equity ownership, has seen its share price fall more than 50 per cent in the past year. According to its latest results, it fell to a £55m loss in the six months to the end of July 2020, down from a profit of £52.6m in the comparable period in 2019. Net debt had increased £52m to £646m.

I could see this coming a mile off and expect that insurers will also not be offering cover if you've not been vaccinated.

Not sure how this works for holiday companies who offer holidays for younger people who haven't been offered the vaccine yet.

Here we go...

Having said that I think I’d rather have my teeth pulled than go on a Saga holiday!

 

[Ediswan]

On cruises, not all customers.

 

[Scotia]

Having worked on SAGA ships for the last couple years - this is the only way to go.

Having said that I think I’d rather have my teeth pulled than go on a Saga holiday!

Cant speak for the land based holidays. But the SAGA cruises are absolutely fantastic, unlike a lot of cruise companies, every single thing on SAGA is inclusive - even brand name drinks.

the food is excellent, the entertainment is superb and every single guest on the ship has a balcony cabin - on two brand new ships.

not necessarily biased, as im not of age to go on one of these holidays, I just work on board.

A lot has been done to change the image of SAGA and it can really be seen on board.

a bit of a diamond in the rough I'd say.

 

[Darandio]

not necessarily biased

Yeah right, that was a SAGA advert!

 

[Scotia]

up to £5000/week? I would not be advertising that...

 

[Domh245]

If they're not sailing until may, that means not accepting anyone who hasn't had their 2nd jab before mid April, which pretty much limits it to people being vaccinated now (assuming a rigid 12 week gap, which isn't quite the case but is the best working assumption you can make) - 75s and up it is then

Whilst SAGA is probably one of the companies where this does make sense, it is disappointing to see nonetheless.

 

[Nym]

One does wonder how proof of vaccination can be provided. Especially since the government said that vac certs wouldn't be a think.

 

[Horizon22]

It's on the BBC too:

Saga cruises says all customers must be vaccinated

Holidaymakers in 2021 must be fully vaccinated against Covid-19, the travel firm says.

www.bbc.co.uk

Anyone going on a Saga holiday or cruise in 2021 must be fully vaccinated against Covid-19, the tour operator has said.
Saga, which specialises in holidays for the over-50s, said it wanted to protect customers' health and safety.
The firm said it would delay restarting its travel packages until May to give customers enough time to get jabs.

Surely this amounts to discrimination if you cannot prove you have one and, even though you might be happy to have a vaccination you are not able to because it is not offered to you?

 

[Lloyds siding]

It's on the BBC too:

Saga cruises says all customers must be vaccinated

Holidaymakers in 2021 must be fully vaccinated against Covid-19, the travel firm says.

www.bbc.co.uk

Surely this amounts to discrimination if you cannot prove you have one and, even though you might be happy to have a vaccination you are not able to because it is not offered to you?

Yes, it is discrimination.
But is it a) illegal discrimination?
or b) discrimination affecting your human rights?
Saga can make any conditions they wish as long as those two caveats are not broken.

 

[Horizon22]

Yes, it is discrimination.
But is it a) illegal discrimination?
or b) discrimination affecting your human rights?
Saga can make any conditions they wish as long as those two caveats are not broken.

Isn't all discrimination illegal by its nature? I don't know where the law sits on this but being prevented from doing something through no fault of your own based on age (vaccination levels) is certainly something a lawyer might be interested in.

 

[Domh245]

One does wonder how proof of vaccination can be provided. Especially since the government said that vac certs wouldn't be a think.

I'd presume they'll want their customers to turn up with one of these, though it's hardly difficult to fake if you were that way inclined as there's no personal information on it at all.

Image shows a vaccination card

 

[Scotrail12]

To be fair, as someone with knowledge on the cruising industry, they are on a hiding to nothing, really one of the few businesses where there is no possible way to work around COVID. I think other cruise lines will follow suit.

 

[Lloyds siding]

Isn't all discrimination illegal by its nature? I don't know where the law sits on this but being prevented from doing something through no fault of your own based on age (vaccination levels) is certainly something a lawyer might be interested in.

Saga is not preventing you from doing anything....apart from buying one of their cruises. I don't like garlic..but there's no law against it.

 

[notlob.divad]

Isn't all discrimination illegal by its nature? I don't know where the law sits on this but being prevented from doing something through no fault of your own based on age (vaccination levels) is certainly something a lawyer might be interested in.

No otherwise you would never be able to choose between candidates for a job. An employer can discriminate against you because your exam results are not as good as someone else's, or your experience isn't as good, or if you don't submit to a drugs test etc.

In fact some disabilities are not protected, if they have a significant impact upon doing the job. You wouldn't want a blind train driver...

 

[Horizon22]

Saga is not preventing you from doing anything....apart from buying one of their cruises. I don't like garlic..but there's no law against it.

I mean don't get me wrong I wouldn't want to be one of their cruises. But if you were 60 and wanted to go, but couldn't because they required vaccinations that you literally could not obtain, they have restricted you based on age (the conditions for a vaccination). Saga are preventing you from travelling - which restricts your movement.

No otherwise you would never be able to choose between candidates for a job. An employer can discriminate against you because your exam results are not as good as someone else's, or your experience isn't as good, or if you don't submit to a drugs test etc.

In fact some disabilities are not protected, if they have a significant impact upon doing the job. You wouldn't want a blind train driver...

I'm not sure the former fits under the legal definition of discrimination and for the latter there is of course the "reasonably practicable" definition.

 

[py_megapixel]

I mean don't get me wrong I wouldn't want to be one of their cruises. But if you were 60 and wanted to go, but couldn't because they required vaccinations that you literally could not obtain, they have restricted you based on age (the conditions for a vaccination). Saga are preventing you from travelling - which restricts your movement.

I'd agree with you, but I think the circumstances are different here.
After all, the alternative is the cruise not running at all - which doesn't restrict anyone's movement any less!

Personally I think Saga's decision here is a little short-sighted here but I wouldn't go so far to say it's discriminatory.

 

[RailExplorer]

Not that I would want to go on a cruise, but if airlines take this approach (and the over 60’s start to travel whilst those of us in our 30’s are still practically in lockdown) I will be furious. If vaccinated / non vaccinated becomes a thing, we should all be restricted until everyone has been offered a jab. But I’m sure the over 60’s will lap up the opportunity to travel, without a single care in the world for those who haven’t been offered a vaccine but have had to restrict their life for the over 60’s for the past year. I see double standards starting very soon.

 

[Scotrail12]

Saga Cruises isn't exactly a line that will attract under 60s in the first place.

Whilst I think there may be vaccine mandates for some airlines and other cruise companies, I think they will wait a bit, especially due to potential for discrimination and controversies surrounding that.

 

[nedchester]

Not that I would want to go on a cruise, but if airlines take this approach (and the over 60’s start to travel whilst those of us in our 30’s are still practically in lockdown) I will be furious. If vaccinated / non vaccinated becomes a thing, we should all be restricted until everyone has been offered a jab. But I’m sure the over 60’s will lap up the opportunity to travel, without a single care in the world for those who haven’t been offered a vaccine but have had to restrict their life for the over 60’s for the past year. I see double standards starting very soon.

I'd agree that it would be wrong for those who haven't had the chance of a vaccine to be discriminated against but can understand it for groups that are exclusively for one age range (over 50s in the case of SAGA).

I'm in my 50s and would be offered the vaccine (I am happy to have it) but I would have an issue if I couldn't go on holiday with my children because they've not had the vaccine. That said legally I doubt there was anything I could do except accept a refund for a booked holiday.

 

[Bishopstone]

It’s a reasonable policy in itself, no doubt driven by insurance considerations and guidance from host governments, plus customer feedback.

But I agree, the mood will turn sour this summer if over-50s can jet off or cruise the world, whilst the youngsters who sacrificed so much to ‘save granny’ are confined to the UK, taking day trips in masks on trains with no catering because the risk level isn’t zero yet.

 

[Lloyds siding]

I'd agree that it would be wrong for those who haven't had the chance of a vaccine to be discriminated against but can understand it for groups that are exclusively for one age range (over 50s in the case of SAGA).

I'm in my 50s and would be offered the vaccine (I am happy to have it) but I would have an issue if I couldn't go on holiday with my children because they've not had the vaccine. That said legally I doubt there was anything I could do except accept a refund for a booked holiday.

Saga's policy is that your children/companions have to be 40 or over to accompany you on a holiday. The holidays are for over 50s.

On cruises, not all customers.

Holidays and cruises are covered by this policy...so all customers.

 

[nedchester]

Saga's policy is that your children/companions have to be 40 or over to accompany you on a holiday. The holidays are for over 50s.


Holidays and cruises are covered by this policy...so all customers.

I wasn't thinking of going on a SAGA holiday thanks!

 

[yorksrob]

I wonder what the vaccination policy will be for say, club 18-30 holidays ?

Just out of curiosity - I'm way past their target audience.

 

[Lloyds siding]

I wonder what the vaccination policy will be for say, club 18-30 holidays ?

Just out of curiosity - I'm way past their target audience.

I wish they'd had 18-30holidays when I didn't exceed their age criteria too!

 

[yorksrob]

I wish they'd had 18-30holidays when I didn't exceed their age criteria too!

Well, they did have them when I was in that age bracket, however I never went on one !

 

[Mag_seven]

I wish they'd had 18-30holidays when I didn't exceed their age criteria too!

They weren't really "my thing" when I was in that age group.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Isn't all discrimination illegal by its nature?

No.
Discrimination is only illegal if it is for some very specific reasons like age, gender, race, disability and a few others. And even then there are some get outs (e.g. a womens only gym is fine, a holiday where you have to be over 50 is fine, a bar that you have to be over 21 is fine etc).
It is perfectly legal to discriminate for other reasons.
The big question will be if this can be seen as indirect discrimination (e.g. SAGA are't saying that if you are disabled you can't go on a cruise - but what if your disability means you can't be vaccinated?).
It is worth saying that by the time they do set sail again it is likely that a vast majority of their usual customer base will have had the vaccine.

 

[yorkie]

I wonder what the vaccination policy will be for say, club 18-30 holidays ?

Just out of curiosity - I'm way past their target audience.

They'd have virtually no business (apart from healthcare workers!) if they did that any time soon!

By the time all 18-30 year olds have been offered a vaccine, I predict we will be beyond the stage of requiring vaccinations (for events within the UK at least).

It's likely that at some point proof of vaccination will replace a requirement to have a negative test.