Cumbria to Manchester services

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When did they change to going via Bolton rather than Wigan? And does anyone know why?
They still do go via Wigan. It was in the period when Blackpool North to Preston was electrified but Preston to Manchester via Bolton wasn’t that these services went via Bolton as the Blackpool North to Manchester Airport services went via Wigan so that they could use a fully electrified route.
 
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I should have looked more closely. It is that a lot of the services have disappeared in the current timetable. And the 17.18 off Oxford Road to Barrow does go via Bolton.

There are no southbound ones out of Wigan during the morning off peak. First one is after 2pm. A shorter gap northbound.
 
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Just one train a day to / from Barrow going via Bolton, that is the MIA 1629 to arrive BIF 1902, and the BIF 1945 to arrive MIA 2203.

None of the Windermere trains go via Bolton.
 

thenorthern

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The trains were going through Wigan for a time because of the Farnworth Tunnel repairs meant there was reduced capacity. Also for a time they were coupled onto a Scotland train when the Scottish trains were operated by Class 185s.
 

Jamesrob637

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Cumbria to Manchester cuts means that Burnage has lost its :37 train to Manchester and :11 southbound apart from in the peaks. Pretty shoddy.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Cumbria to Manchester cuts means that Burnage has lost its :37 train to Manchester and :11 southbound apart from in the peaks. Pretty shoddy.

Those stops were only inserted to eke out capacity on the Airport line.
They are not needed if there are fewer trains overall.
Presumably the stops have been added into the times of the stopper.
The TfW Chester/North Wales trains stop at East Didsbury for the same reason.
 

js1000

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Cumbria to Manchester cuts means that Burnage has lost its :37 train to Manchester and :11 southbound apart from in the peaks. Pretty shoddy.
Been like that for Mauldeth Road since April. 1 peak express service to Liverpool via Warrington in the morning and evening peak but that's your lot - only 1 train per hour now. To think that some on here think passengers numbers will recover to where they were pre-Covid despite fairly robust frequency cuts on many routes that dis-incentivises travelling by train. Nothing but misplaced optimism...
 

Bletchleyite

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Been like that for Mauldeth Road since April. 1 peak express service to Liverpool via Warrington in the morning and evening peak but that's your lot - only 1 train per hour now. To think that some on here think passengers numbers will recover to where they were pre-Covid despite fairly robust frequency cuts on many routes that dis-incentivises travelling by train. Nothing but misplaced optimism...

In a sensible world it'd have at least 2tph of stopping EMUs to Piccadilly.
 

Roose

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Trains between Barrow and Manchester then the airport are scheduled to return to their normal level in December. Efforts are being made by the local MP to persuade Northern to reintroduce them sooner. (Unlikely to be successful I would guess.)
 

Jamesrob637

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Trains between Barrow and Manchester then the airport are scheduled to return to their normal level in December. Efforts are being made by the local MP to persuade Northern to reintroduce them sooner. (Unlikely to be successful I would guess.)

Hope Northern can reintroduce the damn full timetable in December, let alone one line be back up to full capacity!
 

Starmill

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Those stops were only inserted to eke out capacity on the Airport line.
They are not needed if there are fewer trains overall.
Sorry but this is definitely not true. They have to call because the decision, a foolish one in my view, was taken to withdraw the stopper.

In a sensible world it'd have at least 2tph of stopping EMUs to Piccadilly.
You mean just like the perfectly good half-hourly one that existed until it was ruined in 2018?
 

Bletchleyite

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You mean just like the perfectly good half-hourly one that existed until it was ruined in 2018?

Yes, that one.

I don't know about 2018, but the more I think about it the more I think the whole Manchester mess would be sorted out by reverting to a modified version of the pre-1998 timetable, before cramming every single possible path full of 2 and 3-car DMUs was seen as some sort of virtue.
 

Starmill

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The December 2017 timetable was probably one of the best ever in the region, because it delivered stability but had settled in some Sunday uplifts, the all-day extra train between Manchester and Wigan via Parkside that came three years earlier and the all day 2tph between Blackburn and Manchester. Of course, since then there have been some significant rolling stock and infrastructure changes though.
 

js1000

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In a sensible world it'd have at least 2tph of stopping EMUs to Piccadilly.
That's until they decided to butcher the half hourly service on the Styal Line in 2018. Still one of the poorest timetables decisions in recent times. The idea that you could move to skip stopping never really worked because of platform constraint issues at Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Airport, as well as congestion at Castlefield which resulted in a far inferior service and level of punctuality.

Given demand for airport services will be no where near the level we have become used to over the next 2-3 years or reinstating the half-hourly shuttle service probably wouldn't be a bad idea. There is little point in running empty trains from Manchester Airport to Barrow, Cleethorpes etc.
 
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... which was the original reason I started this thread. There is now a big gap of fast trains to Manchester from Wigan.
Whilst it's hopefully only a temporary measure, during the day when the fast train isn't running, there are 4 trains per hour between Wigan and Manchester, all departing within 18 minutes, leaving a gap of 42 mins. This can make social distancing a little difficult on some trains by the time it reaches the city.
 

Starmill

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... which was the original reason I started this thread. There is now a big gap of fast trains to Manchester from Wigan.
Indeed. Northern have made drastic timetable cuts, some but not all of which won't be reversed at the new timetable.
 

Roose

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Given demand for airport services will be no where near the level we have become used to over the next 2-3 years or reinstating the half-hourly shuttle service probably wouldn't be a bad idea. There is little point in running empty trains from Manchester Airport to Barrow, Cleethorpes etc.
As well as serving the airport, the station there provides a terminus capability which is missing from the central Manchester stations.

Where else would you propose terminating the regional and inter-regional services?
 

js1000

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As well as serving the airport, the station there provides a terminus capability which is missing from the central Manchester stations.

Where else would you propose terminating the regional and inter-regional services?
Barrow services could terminate at Oxford Road. Cleethorpes services could simply terminate in Piccadilly shed as they do at the moment. 3 coaches are stabled while 3 head off to the Airport and then come back to join up again. That would provide the capacity to reintroduce half-hourly services from Crewe/Wilmslow to Piccadilly (as it was prior to May 2018), with potentially one an hour continuing on to Liverpool.
 

Bletchleyite

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Barrow services could terminate at Oxford Road

Stupid idea due to lost connectivity. You might as well change at Preston unless you're headed for the uni.

The elephant in the room is the Ordsall Chord. Accept it was a mistake and mothball it, and you're pretty much sorted.
 

js1000

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Stupid idea due to lost connectivity. You might as well change at Preston unless you're headed for the uni.

The elephant in the room is the Ordsall Chord. Accept it was a mistake and mothball it, and you're pretty much sorted.
Or terminate at Preston as it is well-connected to Manchester and its Airport. Either way the Barrow service certainly doesn't need to go to the Airport at the moment with such pitiful passenger numbers for air travel.

Ordsall Chord would have only worked with the upgrades at Oxford Road and new platforms at Piccadilly. That's the problem. In fact there was/is a strong argument that those two upgrades should have been done first before linking Victoria and Oxford Road. It felt that the long discussed "Picc-Vic link" from the 70s blurred their judgement on that one.
 

Gareth

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Or, assuming Wu Flu hasn't permanently damaged demand, send them to Liverpool instead. I think it was the North West RUS that suggested Liverpool needed 2tph to Preston. And that was some years ago now. Ideally, it'd be an hourly to Scotland but a steady 1tph to Cumbria would be preferable to the somewhat intermittent Scotland service we have at the moment.
 

Bletchleyite

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Or terminate at Preston as it is well-connected to Manchester and its Airport. Either way the Barrow service certainly doesn't need to go to the Airport at the moment with such pitiful passenger numbers for air travel.

I can see that argument. What I would say is that if it's going to Manchester it needs to go to either Picc or Vic, and Ringway is just a terminus of convenience. Oxford Road is not a particularly useful terminus (due to reduced interchange options), and is only used for tertiary stopping services (i.e. from the CLC) because there's no other sensible option.

Sending them to Liverpool is an interesting option. My objection to that would be that it's more DMUs under the wires, and so I'd prefer to see a second hourly EMU service from Preston (or somewhere north of there) if there is the demand.
 

Ianno87

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Not doing 15/16 first was the mistake. Though yes, with the whole project it would be positive. For now it is very negative, and as such it should be mothballed.

I think it was as simple as the money was there for Ordsall Chord, but not 15/16. So it was a choice between build the Ordsall Chord, or build nothing at all.

And if Ordsall Chord wasn't built, then there'd be no chance of ever getting 15/16.

The only mistake was probably using the Ordsall Chord (in isolation) in such a capacity-ambitious way.
 

Dspatula

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Barrow services could terminate at Oxford Road. Cleethorpes services could simply terminate in Piccadilly shed as they do at the moment. 3 coaches are stabled while 3 head off to the Airport and then come back to join up again. That would provide the capacity to reintroduce half-hourly services from Crewe/Wilmslow to Piccadilly (as it was prior to May 2018), with potentially one an hour continuing on to Liverpool.
The inbound Barrow arrives at Oxford Road after the outbound is due to leave, it gains you nothing not continuing to airport and blocking a platform at Oxford road for an hour is not going to be allowed. If the Chester is removed you would gain enough time to turn it, but you'd also have enough time to have it do all stops to airport giving the other half hourly stopper.
 

Ianno87

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2tph is hardly ambitious :)

0tph is the only sustainable number at present.

I'm talking about the 15-odd tph through Castlefield, which (with hindsight) clearly was ambitious. 2tph is sustainable, if choices are made about some other services through the corridor (i.e. if two other trains had been taken out so the net service level did not increase).
 
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