Cumbrian Coast Timetable - no 37s to Preston, but a best ever timetable from May 20

[Shaw S Hunter]

If you look at the new timetable, the 1735 runs on Saturday’s only. So what about people who used the current 1741? Are the just expected to wait for the 1818?

You're quite right and I stand corrected. It is indeed a slightly bizarre timetable. The comments about things being heavily geared to the needs of Sellafield don't tell the full story, I suspect that BaE in Barrow is also a factor. The line needs one extra unit to fill the gap. One day...

 

[70014IronDuke]

This is mostly about trying to reinvigorate the communities on or close to the coast rather than Lakeland. Since the end of mining and steel-making there are few large employers left meaning that younger people are more likely to leave the area leading to a long-term decline in local economic fortunes. By improving accessibility the hope is to attract a little more inward investment without being heavily reliant on the nuclear industry for it.

If that is the purpose, it make the project even more interesting to study in terms of results say, 5 years hence.

I live in Hull and I travelled on the line four times last year. It's such an interesting trip. I really couldn't give a toss what's pulling it but the coaches are nice and comfy. ....

You mean in the Mark IIs?

 

[splashoutradio]

For example, there’s a 2 hour gap between services southbound from Whitehaven during the evening peak on weekdays, but oddly not on Saturdays. How is that supposed to provide a functional service for commuters?

Looking at the timetable, it appears this may be down to northern trying to fit things in around freight flows which are booked to run on Monday to Fridays.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If that is the purpose, it make the project even more interesting to study in terms of results say, 5 years hence.

Keeping young people there is going to be very difficult, I'd say. But there may be some scope for limited re-invigoration of the economy by encouraging home-workers like IT people with families and the likes to move there from the South East, where they can sell their two up two down and buy a large detached house with land and a sea view and a superb quality of life, and can still get to London (by train) and Manchester Airport *reasonably* easily for when they need to go on site. A lot of these people seem to migrate towards Oxfordshire and the Westcountry (where it's more expensive to do so) but maybe a bit of promotion of that area might do them well? And such people will spend a packet in the local economy, creating more jobs.

Better than holiday homes, at any rate. I can actually see myself doing that (though probably nearer family rather than the Cumbrian Coast) at some point - I've worked primarily remotely for the past 5 years or so, and IT only seems to be going more and more that way.

And, on topic, people in the South East, certainly the closer to London you get, are quite well inclined to use a train service if it's any good. (Note: 1980s DMUs and 1960s LHCS are not "any good" - they really need a look at the German rural line model in my eyes - even if actually implemented using poshed up D78s or something).

 

[70014IronDuke]

Keeping young people there is going to be very difficult, I'd say. But there may be some scope for limited re-invigoration of the economy by encouraging home-workers like IT people with families and the likes to move there from the South East, where they can sell their two up two down and buy a large detached house with land and a sea view and a superb quality of life, and can still get to London (by train) and Manchester Airport *reasonably* easily for when they need to go on site. A lot of these people seem to migrate towards Oxfordshire and the Westcountry (where it's more expensive to do so) but maybe a bit of promotion of that area might do them well? And such people will spend a packet in the local economy, creating more jobs.

All good points. I think the problem with the Cumbrian Coast here is that it may work for the likes of semi-regular travel to Preston or Manchester, but a) London is a darn long, long way away and b) you are going to have to change twice in most cases (Barrow and Lancaster/Preston), which I suspect most normals find very off-putting.

The Furness Coast would fit your model here if London is the place needed to visit - but I suspect home prices are statospheric in places like Grange-over-Sands compared to Seascale.

Better than holiday homes, at any rate. ...

Absolutely.

 

[yorksrob]

Keeping young people there is going to be very difficult, I'd say. But there may be some scope for limited re-invigoration of the economy by encouraging home-workers like IT people with families and the likes to move there from the South East, where they can sell their two up two down and buy a large detached house with land and a sea view and a superb quality of life, and can still get to London (by train) and Manchester Airport *reasonably* easily for when they need to go on site. A lot of these people seem to migrate towards Oxfordshire and the Westcountry (where it's more expensive to do so) but maybe a bit of promotion of that area might do them well? And such people will spend a packet in the local economy, creating more jobs.

Better than holiday homes, at any rate. I can actually see myself doing that (though probably nearer family rather than the Cumbrian Coast) at some point - I've worked primarily remotely for the past 5 years or so, and IT only seems to be going more and more that way.

And, on topic, people in the South East, certainly the closer to London you get, are quite well inclined to use a train service if it's any good. (Note: 1980s DMUs and 1960s LHCS are not "any good" - they really need a look at the German rural line model in my eyes - even if actually implemented using poshed up D78s or something).

I'm not convinced about how even a "poshed up" D78 can represent an improvement over a 156 for example, or even a Mk II.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not convinced about how even a "poshed up" D78 can represent an improvement over a 156 for example, or even a Mk II.

One of the key attributes is high acceleration and operational method to create a more metro-like timetable. Present rural timetables in the UK are very slow, part of that is due to a glacial style of operation (driver release, guard close can seriously speed this up, and drivers doing the doors so guards (still safety critical[1]) can concentrate on fares etc and speed it up even more) and due to slow acceleration from old-style DMUs and even more so from LHCS.

The last time I travelled on the Marston Vale, as I often do for a pleasant short day out, it struck me that it was basically living in about 1960 in terms of speed and method of operation. You could easily get 5 minutes if not more off an end to end run simply by speeding stuff up and using high acceleration DMUs. Don't underestimate how much small, simple stuff like speed of dispatch affects a stopping branch line - remember that 2 minutes were added to Ormskirk to Liverpool schedules in the 1990s simply because of the addition of hustle alarms to the doors and an increase in saloon dispatch[2]!

Germany was very much a LHCS country in the 1990s even on local routes (the 37+Mk2 thing has a definite 1990s DB feel to it) and its branch lines were glacially slow like ours. But they have gone through a programme of buying all manner of brand-new lightweight DMUs which have sped things up no end and offer a very attractive looking product.

[1] Let's not have a DOO debate. If you need them for revenue, they might as well retain their status and training.

[2] 5 seconds bleeping x 12 stations = 1 minute. Then if you reopen for a runner or someone stuck that's another 5-6 seconds, then if you're dispatching from the saloon (interlocked door) rather than cab (not interlocked on 50x) that's another 3-4 seconds to close that before you ding ding...it all adds up!

 

[47802]

And, on topic, people in the South East, certainly the closer to London you get, are quite well inclined to use a train service if it's any good. (Note: 1980s DMUs and 1960s LHCS are not "any good" - they really need a look at the German rural line model in my eyes - even if actually implemented using poshed up D78s or something).

Ideally we should be looking at something like the quality of the Anglia Stadler units for all regional routes but clearly that not going to happen everywhere for some time. However I think a refurbished fleet of reasonably reliable 156's should be able to offer a reasonable service until the end of Arriva current franchise and overall should be an improvement over the current motley collection of Railbus, 153, 156 and unreliable 37's

As for Method of operation lets not get into that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ideally we should be looking at something like the quality of the Anglia Stadler units for all regional routes but clearly that not going to happen everywhere for some time. However I think a refurbished fleet of reasonably reliable 156's should be able to offer a reasonable service until the end of Arriva current franchise and overall should be an improvement over the current motley collection of Railbus, 153, 156 and unreliable 37's

I'd say 156s will offer an upgraded (in comfort terms, at least assuming they replace the collapsed Richmond seat bases; if they don't I'd rather a bus bench 142) traditional slow rural service (just like WMT's poshed-up 153s on the Vale are nicer than the old interior), but won't bring the benefits that other changes might do. The Stadler units are interesting and are worth watching because they are (assuming other upgrades come with them) the first attempt to pretty much deploy that highly successful German/Dutch model in the UK. The D78s will also bring high acceleration to the route and it will be interesting to see what that can do to the timetable.

As for Method of operation lets not get into that.

I wasn't going to mention it, but it *does* save a lot of time. In particular on a rural route with guard doing ticketing driver open, guard close provides huge benefit for a rural line, and I don't think it is particularly controversial given that a great many TOCs already use it.

 

[skifans]

All good points. I think the problem with the Cumbrian Coast here is that it may work for the likes of semi-regular travel to Preston or Manchester, but a) London is a darn long, long way away and b) you are going to have to change twice in most cases (Barrow and Lancaster/Preston), which I suspect most normals find very off-putting.

Still definitely a long way but for the northern section of the cumbrian coast could head to Carlisle which removes a change.

 

[Bletchleyite]

FWIW 3-4 minutes just wasted at Ridgmont due to doors not being opened before a ticket sale was completed. Multiply that by the far more stations round the Coast...

We should be looking at stops, possibly on request using stop buttons, being 30 seconds at most from wheels stop to wheels rolling unless assistance is needed.

 

[Loop & Link]

FWIW 3-4 minutes just wasted at Ridgmont due to doors not being opened before a ticket sale was completed. Multiply that by the far more stations round the Coast...

What time service was that on, please?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What time service was that on, please?

1201 off Bletchley. But it happens all the time, and the cause is revenue being incompatible with door opening duties, particularly where there are no staff controls at all passenger doors. I wouldn’t want to see the guard in trouble when the system is the problem.

I reckon at least 5 minutes are wasted on every single Marston Vale run. Multiply that up to a longer stopping route like the Coast or Liverpool to Manchester via the CLC and it becomes fairly significant.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interestingly RTT doesn’t show the long stop (it seemed to think it was only 1.5 minutes), but does show the train actually running 1 early near enough throughout, so no delay was caused.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P66421/2018/05/10

But my point is that if what I proposed could be achieved, you’d get several minutes off the timetabled time easily.

 

[Loop & Link]

There wasn’t a long stop (around 3-4 minutes wasted as you say) it departed Aspley Guise 1 early, and still departed Ridgmont 1 min early, unless there’s some weird time zone between the 2 stations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There wasn’t a long stop (around 3-4 minutes wasted as you say) it departed Aspley Guise 1 early, and still departed Ridgmont 1 min early, unless there’s some weird time zone between the 2 stations.

The Ridgmont stop is shown (if you go to the detail view) as a minute and a half. It felt much longer than that - but it is still three times the timetabled time.

Punctuality on those services isn’t bad as there’s enough padding. But my point is that taking that padding out by improving the efficiency of operation on local services like this is a very important part of making them more attractive. If you could, by combining Desiro like acceleration, 20-30 second station stops, request buttons and improved stock quality as a whole package, the whole thing just looks better. Get it working basically like a tram and you are about there.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Still definitely a long way but for the northern section of the cumbrian coast could head to Carlisle which removes a change.

Well, that's always been the case - but the improved service levels will impact on that possibility too, of course. Especially on Sundays. And I suppose the ability to do trips to Glasgow, Edinburgh and Newcastle - though I have no idea what demand is for such journies.
Talking of Newcastle - the new TT eliminates the one odd afternoon through working from Sunderland to Whitehaven, I imagine.

 

[LWB]

Shame that BAE's little aerodrome can't be opened up for public use
My daughter often flies to Bristol or Portsmouth am and returns pm.
Might give the area a less isolated feel

 

[Toby Atkinson]

14:37 from CAR to BIF has been cancelled due to fault on the train. Is this the 68?

I am supposed to be getting the 17:31 from BIF. Still showing as running though

 

[PHILIPE]

14:37 from CAR to BIF has been cancelled due to fault on the train. Is this the 68?

I am supposed to be getting the 17:31 from BIF. Still showing as running though

Details are here on the Cumbrian LHCS thread:-

/www.railforums.co.uk/threads/cumbrian-coast-lhcs.110539/page-49

 

[skifans]

Shame that BAE's little aerodrome can't be opened up for public use
My daughter often flies to Bristol or Portsmouth am and returns pm.
Might give the area a less isolated feel

Not quite the same but the airport at Carlise will reopen next month.

 

[Starmill]

The line between Pontefract and Wakefield recently gained a Sunday service for the first time ever. It does not seem to have been especially well marketed or known about locally, but then these things generally aren't! Hopefully some support with spreading the word will be available on the Cumbrian Coast as the extra resources going into running this much improved service are fairly significant and we all want it to be seen as a success. I would imagine that in the end what happens is word gets around locally and people try it out.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Given the present service pattern one would presume it would be the 0515 Carlisle to Preston on the 17th May. (68s on the 18th, 1156 Carlisle to Lancaster on the 19th should be 37s but only goes as far as Lancaster)

Will any members of this esteemed fraternity be on this train on Thursday? Perhaps it ought to have been suggested earlier as a forum meet up (or whatever they are called).

Incindentally - although RTT says the 37s are timed for 75 mph max, is there any reason why they can't do 90 mph on the Carnforth - Lancaster - Preston section?

 

[Steve Hammond]

Not very good at reading train timetables so any help would be very much appreciated. I'm travelling up to Preston by road to visit relatives this week on Thursday 17/5 and would like to travel behind a 37 this Saturday 19/5 from Preston to Barrow-in- Furness can anyone tell me which train will be headed by a 37 on Saturday morning? Thank you, in anticipation of anyone who can provide me with info.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Not very good at reading train timetables so any help would be very much appreciated. I'm travelling up to Preston by road to visit relatives this week on Thursday 17/5 and would like to travel behind a 37 this Saturday 19/5 from Preston to Barrow-in- Furness can anyone tell me which train will be headed by a 37 on Saturday morning? Thank you, in anticipation of anyone who can provide me with info.

As noted up thread, the last 37-hauled over the Barrow-Preston-Barrow section is likely to be this Thursday, 17th. On Saturdays, I think there is an afternoon working to Lancaster only, but presumably this will be a 68.
see here for diagrams
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/frequently-requested-diagrams-thread.84997/#post-1478562

 

[Steve Hammond]

As noted up thread, the last 37-hauled over the Barrow-Preston-Barrow section is likely to be this Thursday, 17th. On Saturdays, I think there is an afternoon working to Lancaster only, but presumably this will be a 68.
see here for diagrams
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/frequently-requested-diagrams-thread.84997/#post-1478562

Thank you Iron Duke

 

[30907]

As noted up thread, the last 37-hauled over the Barrow-Preston-Barrow section is likely to be this Thursday, 17th.

... 1156 Carlisle to Lancaster on the 19th should be 37s but only goes as far as Lancaster)

To summarise.
There isn't a Saturday morning loco hauled train from Preston OR Lancaster.
There is an afternoon one: 1455 from Barrow to Lancaster and 1731 back. Janb reckons this should be the class 37.

 

[Steve Hammond]

To summarise.
There isn't a Saturday morning loco hauled train from Preston OR Lancaster.
There is an afternoon one: 1455 from Barrow to Lancaster and 1731 back. Janb reckons this should be the class 37.

Thank you 30907

 

[Roose]

Shame that BAE's little aerodrome can't be opened up for public use
My daughter often flies to Bristol or Portsmouth am and returns pm.
Might give the area a less isolated feel

The public service operated by Air Furness from Barrow's Walney Airport to Manchester, timed to connect with key services to and from there, for four years in the 1980s was fairly successful but the company was unable to survive an extended strike in the shipyard which decimated passenger numbers.

At the time of failure the company was looking to extend some services to Workington, using a grass strip next to the railway, opposite Dunmail Park, now occupied by wind turbines. This might have been a good benefit to West Cumbria, although a site nearer Whitehaven may have been preferable.

The Walney site has seen a lot of investment by its owners in recent years - new security fence, resurfaced runways, improved runway lighting and a new Instrument Landing System - with planning permission granted for a new hangar and terminal.
The owners operate a number of scheduled (but not public) flights daily to several destinations and, I understand, base two or more aircraft there. 'Through' flights are a slick operation, being met on the runway by a minibus with outgoing passengers and to collect those incoming before the aircraft continues en route.

Rather like Carlisle, the airport is arguably on the 'wrong' side of town but if agreement could be reached with BAe and a market shown to exist, the basics are there for a new operator to try their hand.

As for Carlisle Airport, adding 'Lake District' to its name smacks a little of desperate marketing, it being thirty miles from the nearest lake (cf Walney twenty miles) but one hopes it will be successful with its new Loganair services, up to four daily 36-seater aircraft with Belfast, Dublin and Southend the destinations to be served from June.

 

[Steve Hammond]

As noted up thread, the last 37-hauled over the Barrow-Preston-Barrow section is likely to be this Thursday, 17th. On Saturdays, I think there is an afternoon working to Lancaster only, but presumably this will be a 68.
see here for diagrams
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/frequently-requested-diagrams-thread.84997/#post-1478562

Thanks again for the info had a great day up and down the line to Barrow.