Current events in Afghanistan

[67thave]

The videos coming from the airport are absolutely terrifying to witness. Videos of people clinging onto planes and running in front of planes in runway. Unverified reports and videos of people falling off in the air.

American helicopters hovering in front of planes taking off to try clear runway of pedestrians. It is not a good image for the US this at all and sense things for Biden will get worse as the US wakes up.

People were previously comparing what is happening in Kabul to what happened in Saigon.
They cannot be compared now, as what is unfolding in Kabul is much worse than what happened in Saigon.

 

[Gostav]

The videos coming from the airport are absolutely terrifying to witness. Videos of people clinging onto planes and running Infront of planes in runway. Unverified reports and videos of people falling off in the air.

American helicopters hovering Infront of planes taking off to try clear runway of pedestrians. It is not a good image for the US this at all and sense things for Biden will get worse as the US wakes up.

That is very shrewd strategy for Taliban, when Kabul was under siege people speculated that Taliban would attack the airport - Civilians would killed by the Taliban and coalition forces will fight back - However what the people all over the world are paying attention is actually happening now may little different: Taliban didn't attack the airport; coalition forces (mainly U.S. and British forces) are blocking civilians and even opened fire; civilians fall and killed from the U.S. planes; civilians are dying in Kabul Airport where under U.S. control. Obviously, the coalition forces are in a huge humanitarian disaster, any news about soldiers use of lethal force to disperse civilians on the runway would be seriously affect the international image of the coalition forces. Taliban know that so they only need take a sit to watch that, no need more bullets, no need sacrifice, no need fight, the coalition forces are in a dilemma.

 

[najaB]

Precisely. When half the country is the fifth column, there's no hope.

Except it's more accurate to say that "When you don't know who is fifth column..."

 

[yorksrob]

Except it's more accurate to say that "When you don't know who is fifth column..."

Either way, it's clear that Afghan citizens have wildly differing ideas of how the country should be run from eachother.

 

[YorkshireBear]

That is very shrewd strategy for Taliban, when Kabul was under siege people speculated that Taliban would attack the airport - Civilians would killed by the Taliban and coalition forces will fight back - However what the people all over the world are paying attention is actually happening now may little different: Taliban didn't attack the airport; coalition forces (mainly U.S. and British forces) are blocking civilians and even opened fire; civilians fall and killed from the U.S. planes; civilians are dying in Kabul Airport where under U.S. control. Obviously, the coalition forces are in a huge humanitarian disaster, any news about soldiers use of lethal force to disperse civilians on the runway would be seriously affect the international image of the coalition forces. Taliban know that so they only need take a sit to watch that, no need more bullets, no need sacrifice, no need fight, the coalition forces are in a dilemma.

Absolutely. The world sees big US planes it sees no Taliban in those videos.

 

[DarloRich]

In a section on the BBC website entitled "who is still talking to the Taliban" three nations were listed: China, Russia and Iran. Geopolitical strategy writ large.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Does no-one remember the wars that Britain fought in Afghanistan in the period of the 1830s onwards, when Britain was more of a great power than it is today? In 1842, the British had to retreat from Kabul and on top of losses incurred, were constantly ambushed in the mountain passes and many also died as a result of being exposed to the severe weather. Only one person survived.

No-one seems to learn the lesson from fighting Islamic nations and peoples. The number of Crusades achieved some early successes, but Saladin was an Islamic leader who knew how to fight the correct battles with the knowledge of their troops undying belief in Islam. Constantinople as it was called in those days was another example of an Islamic victory over entrenched believers of the Christian faith.

When you think of how people can lay down their lives to protect their cultural and religious beliefs, that surely proves a point. When Britain was facing invasion by the Nazis, Churchill made his famous speech about "fighting on the beaches, etc", ... was he wrong in saying that?

 

[Gloster]

Does no-one remember the wars that Britain fought in Afghanistan in the period of the 1830s onwards, when Britain was more of a great power than it is today? In 1842, the British had to retreat from Kabul and on top of losses incurred, were constantly ambushed in the mountain passes and many also died as a result of being exposed to the severe weather. Only one person survived.

Not entirely true, but indicative of the white man’s myth making. Around a hundred other Britons survived as captives and were later released. But Dr Brydon was the only Briton to make it to Jallalabad: nobody seems to have bothered about the others, mostly Indian troops, who also made it.

 

[BananaRepublic]

I feel ashamed to be British right now. To leave the people of Afghanistan to suffer like this is utterly appaling.........

There's nothing we could have done, once Biden gave the order to accelerate the US withdrawal.
Even if the British government had chosen to ignore the American retreat, vowed to remain and stay committed to supporting the Afghan government, we would have swept away in a matter of weeks or days.

 

[SuperNova]

I blame Tony Blair, and also David Cameron, for their ignorance of history, and thus making huge mistakes in foreign policy. Anyone with knowledge of the several Anglo-Afghan wars (1839-1919), yet alone the ignominious outcome of the Russian occupation of Afghanistan in the 1980s, would have steered clear of invading Afghanistan with a barge pole. "Wars on terror" are rarely successful, where the "terrorist" groups have significant support. Those perceived as terrorists to some are perceived as freedom fighters to others. This includes the Taliban and the IRA; Tony Blair took a very different approach to the latter.

This is deluded piffle. Similar to those who are all decreeing that action in Afghanistan was it mistake - it was not. Blaming Blair is incoherent nonsense peddled by the hard left and deluded right to paint one man was the cause of all these problems - that is not the case with Afghanistan, a war which included international forces and gave many a chance to make something of themselves. What did you expect the world to do post 9/11 - oh well, take it on the chin?

And how are you going to negotiate with terrorists who murder anyone suspected of sympathising with the other side? The very same Taliban that are now conducting house to house searches looking for journalists, NGO workers, teachers etc on their hit list. The very same Taliban who are right now committing human rights violations despite saying they wouldn't... Yeah - good one.

There were many mistakes made moons ago, but what we are seeing right now started with Donald Trump and ended with Joe Biden. A shambolic retreat based on pretending the war on terror had been won. It began in Doha where Mike Pompeo released Taliban prisoners including the very leader in place now, they've been planning this of 18 months buying off villages and those in the Afghan army.

But yeah, it's all Blair's fault. Honestly, wake up smell the coffee.

 

[Scotrail314209]

https://twitter.com/POTUS/status/1427285626429353987

President Biden is addressing the US this afternoon regarding Afghanistan.

I will be addressing the nation on Afghanistan at 3:45 PM ET today.

 

[Davester50]

One has to wonder what all those soldiers died for?

20 years of keeping Women and Girls in education, and free from the worst of extremists.

 

[YorkshireBear]

BBC news reporting the US on verge of abandoning Kabul airport once every US citizen is out and leaving behind anyone else they were originally meant to get out. Apparently due to them being unable to control the airport.

 

[67thave]

BBC news reporting the US on verge of abandoning Kabul airport once every US citizen is out and leaving behind anyone else they were originally meant to get out. Apparently due to them being unable to control the airport.

That's assuming that the US can even hold the airport long enough to allow the reinforcements to arrive.
There's a sizable possibility that American troops and citizens at the airport may find themselves taken hostage by the Taliban - not to mention citizens of other nations as well.

 

[brad465]

Didn't realise Raab was still alive until this report came out:

Afghanistan: Another 200 UK troops sent to Kabul evacuation

Around 700 troops were already in the Afghan capital to help UK citizens and others leave.

www.bbc.co.uk

The UK is "working very carefully" to determine the number of Afghan refugees it will take in after the Taliban seized control, Dominic Raab has said.

The foreign secretary said the situation was "not what we wanted, but we have to deal with the new reality".

He confirmed hundreds more British nationals and Afghans who worked with UK troops would arrive in the UK later.

It came after people fled to Kabul's international airport as the Taliban swept into the capital unopposed.

Amid chaotic scenes, in which a number of people died, all flights in and out of the airport have been halted, a Pentagon spokesperson said.

 

[DarloRich]

There is an interesting podcast on the history hit warfare podcast on Afghanistan with Rory Stewart - he is the former international development secretary and, for a Tory, seems to be worryingly sensible. https://podfollow.com/the-world-wars/view

Podcast: The current withdrawal of US troops from Afghanistan raises a lot of questions about the conflict. Why are they withdrawing now? Was there a better time for this? How might the assistance of Western countries have been more successful? In this episode, Rory Stewart OBE, former Secretary of State for International Development in the UK and now a senior fellow at Yale University's Jackson Institute for Global Affairs, shares his thoughts on the war in Afghanistan.

It was uploaded 3 days ago and seems already old news considering what we have seen in the last 24 hours!

 

[ainsworth74]

he is the former international development secretary and, for a Tory, seems to be worryingly sensible.

He was purged by Johnson which I think should establish his bona fides!

 

[YorkshireBear]

He was purged by Johnson which I think should establish his bona fides!

I know quite a few ardent labour voters who sat the same!

Like you say purged by Johnson is worthy of putting on a CV in my books

 

[Bantamzen]

Either way, it's clear that Afghan citizens have wildly differing ideas of how the country should be run from eachother.

And that's not surprising, Afghanistan's footprint as we know it was defined by Britain. For many tribes in the area, they barely care about those borders but the areas they live in. The Taliban leadership have simply been more successful in unifying these tribes over the years, mainly because they understand what the people want more than governments from thousands of miles away.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

Things in Afghanistan have changed, the people know about education, as Malala once said "one book can change the world", the Taliban won't last long if they are any harsher on human rights than Pakistan or Iran. I know it's desperate for the people there, and nothing can stop that in revolutions or cival wars, but the only way to change Afghanistan for the better, is from within, not from external comments or military interventions, the people on the street need to believe they can make something better, help those in need, speak in private to those sympathetic, and be patient. Things will change as long as the people keep hope.

Public reaction to a Taliban-organised outrage is what we need to see, people may be waiting and seeing, but after the widespread freedoms, they won't put up with much from Taliban mis-rule.

 

[edwin_m]

And that's not surprising, Afghanistan's footprint as we know it was defined by Britain. For many tribes in the area, they barely care about those borders but the areas they live in. The Taliban leadership have simply been more successful in unifying these tribes over the years, mainly because they understand what the people want more than governments from thousands of miles away.

What we probably don't know is how many Afghans want this sort of rule, and how many just go along with it because objecting can be a death sentence.

 

[Scotrail314209]

https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1427320554713931784

BREAKING: Britain is to accept tens of thousands of Afghan refugees

Ministers plan to resettle Afghan refugees in Britain

The government will resettle Afghan refugees who flee the Taliban under plans being modelled on the process that brought tens of thousands of Syrians to Brita

www.thetimes.co.uk

Article is unfortunately paywalled, so if anyone who has access could paste some of it in here, it'd be great.

I do think this is a good shout, and other Western nations should follow suit.

 

[Bantamzen]

Things in Afghanistan have changed, the people know about education, as Malala once said "one book can change the world", the Taliban won't last long if they are any harsher on human rights than Pakistan or Iran. I know it's desperate for the people there, and nothing can stop that in revolutions or cival wars, but the only way to change Afghanistan for the better, is from within, not from external comments or military interventions, the people on the street need to believe they can make something better, help those in need, speak in private to those sympathetic, and be patient. Things will change as long as the people keep hope.

Public reaction to a Taliban-organised outrage is what we need to see, people may be waiting and seeing, but after the widespread freedoms, they won't put up with much from Taliban mis-rule.

That is the hope for the people of Afghanistan. However religion in that part of the world still holds a lot of influence on society. If the Islamic world leans on the Taliban to be more moderate than previously maybe they will listen and loosen their grip. But it would take a considerable number of Afghan citizens to completely overturn them, at least for a while. There is a reason the Taliban, and indeed Afghan fighters in general have seen off so many western powers. They are bloody good fighters, and have no fear of death.

What we probably don't know is how many Afghans want this sort of rule, and how many just go along with it because objecting can be a death sentence.

And we probably never will, I can't imagine the Taliban having opinion polls on the subject. But make no mistake, many will still put religion before politics. There is a reason why "God Willing" is an oft used phrase in Islam.

 

[Senex]

If the Islamic world leans on the Taliban to be more moderate than previously maybe they will listen and loosen their grip. But it would take a considerable number of Afghan citizens to completely overturn them, at least for a while.

Is there any reason to think that the Islamic world as represented by Iran, Pakistan, Malaysia, Saudi Arabia, etc (or many of their followers in the diaspora) would not in inclination be just as primitive and misogynistic as the Taliban? The scholarly Islam of the Middle Ages that preserved and passed on so much classical knowledge to us and was so much at the leading edge in the sciences of the day (and was responsible for some glorious architecture) does not seem to have left many traces today.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Public reaction to a Taliban-organised outrage is what we need to see, people may be waiting and seeing, but after the widespread freedoms, they won't put up with much from Taliban mis-rule.

What choice will they have? The Taliban appear to have most of the weapons and the organised structure. And at least some support from more conservative elements of the population.

If the people of Belarus, who are on the whole much more westernized and used to the ideas of democracy, are apparently powerless to do anything Lukashenko's awful and clearly very unpopular regime - because the regime controls the police, the army etc., what hope would less organised people in Afghanistan have?

 

[najaB]

What choice will they have? The Taliban appear to have most of the weapons and the organised structure. And at least some support from more conservative elements of the population.

I agree that things don't look good, but don't underestimate the power of unarmed people to overthrow a repressive government. The events of 1989-91 show what can happen.

 

[Gloster]

I agree that things don't look good, but don't underestimate the power of unarmed people to overthrow a repressive government. The events of 1989-91 show what can happen.

The difference to the fall of the Berlin Wall is that it was clear that Gorbachev was unlikely to support the Warsaw Pact states if they faced serious unrest and they might be out on a limb if they upset the Western powers. The Taliban are on their own already and don’t care what the West thinks; some would probably welcome the chance to have another war. As far as the people are concerned, many may be opposed to the Taliban, but when they risk death for even the slightest perceived opposition and anybody could be a stool pigeon, people are going to keep their heads down.

 

[najaB]

The difference to the fall of the Berlin Wall is that it was clear that Gorbachev was unlikely to support the Warsaw Pact states if they faced serious unrest and they might be out on a limb if they upset the Western powers. The Taliban are on their own already and don’t care what the West thinks; some would probably welcome the chance to have another war. As far as the people are concerned, many may be opposed to the Taliban, but when they risk death for even the slightest perceived opposition and anybody could be a stool pigeon, people are going to keep their heads down.

I agree the two situations aren't directly comparable, but it was people power that brought down the Soviet Union more than anything.

I also agree that the Taliban would welcome a war, but that war can't be with the Western powers. At least not directly.

 

[Gostav]

I agree that things don't look good, but don't underestimate the power of unarmed people to overthrow a repressive government. The events of 1989-91 show what can happen.

In this years people in former socialist group have more doubts about "Western democracy" such as Hungary slaps restrictions on LGBTQ+.

 

[najaB]

In this years people in former socialist group have more doubts about "Western democracy" such as Hungary slaps restrictions on LGBTQ+.

The resurgence of the (far) Right isn't just a phenomenon in the former Soviet states. It's the swing of the pendulum.