Current guidelines regarding driver minding duties

[blueblagger]

Hi

I was just wondering what the current guidelines are in your TOC/FOC regarding training, specifically regarding driver minding duties?

At my TOC it appears it is becoming a "do what you want" attitude.

It is quite concerning as we haven’t passed the finishing line with this pandemic!!!

Cheers

 

[iphone76]

At my company there is no instructing/minding going on whatsoever. I believe trainees are furloughed to save the organisation who our company runs the service for money.

 

[lammergeier]

No training where I work either. Courses are being run online for the classroom parts but those awaiting practical training such as caterers, TMs and drivers are waiting at home. No road learning or traction training going on either. There have been quite a few Aslef bulletins out about it, if you're concerned I'd speak to a rep or someone at Aslef.

 

[ComUtoR]

Same 'do what you want' at my TOC.

 

[Efini92]

No training at Northern. To be honest I thought it was industry wide. ASLEF have issued a few circulars recently about proposals for training being unacceptable.

 

[Chingy]

No front end training at my TOC either. Aslef pulling the strings in this regard.

 

[donpoku]

This discrepancies across tocs is alarming when there's a clear govt guideline. Aslef is also confusing with their region specific but company wide guidelines.

 

[ComUtoR]

This discrepancies across tocs is alarming when there's a clear govt guideline.

Who's behaviour is more alarming. The TOC that continues to train and asks staff to break social distancing or the DI/Minder/Trainee/Learner ?

Aslef is also confusing with their region specific but company wide guidelines.

Shows how much they are 'respected' when neither the TOC or their members listen or follow their 'guidelines'

 

[donpoku]

Who's behaviour is more alarming. The TOC that continues to train and asks staff to break social distancing or the DI/Minder/Trainee/Learner ?


Shows how much they are 'respected' when neither the TOC or their members listen or follow their 'guidelines'

The TOC's. Employees will always be selfish esp if it involves money(RDW, etc) but to put it bluntly, for the company to knowingly compromise the health of its workers is nothing short of...

And with Health&Safety issues esp pandemic of this scale the Chain of command is Govt->TOCS->Union->Employees. So when the top is broken the end product is swashbucklers all over the place playing with their health.

 

[the sniper]

Shows how much they are 'respected' when neither the TOC or their members listen or follow their 'guidelines'

A union is only as strong as its members. I have no idea what people are playing at in TOCs where training has carried on regardless throughout.

 

[driver9000]

All training has been paused at my TOC.

 

[ComUtoR]

A union is only as strong as its members. I have no idea what people are playing at in TOCs where training has carried on regardless throughout.

Yes, the age old rhetoric that the members are at fault.

I think I lean more towards donpoku in that those above need to take responsibility. At my TOC. I never even knew there was an ASLEF policy. The first I heard of it was on this forum in another thread. None of the LDRs have taken anyone aside and advised them of the policy or made any point about training still being undertaken. They haven't taken the company to task about training and even the policy allows it. When the message is unclear and inconclusive, the members will make their own decisions.

I have spoken to those DIs with Trainees or Drivers out route learning and they have all been clear in their decisions and reasoning to keep training. The TOC didn't force it and everyone was given a choice.

At my TOC; the message from the top is that everyone should be social distancing. At the same time, the very same people who are sending out those messages are allowing training to continue :/

 

[Chingy]

I thought the latest advice was social distance whenever possible. Surely we can't wait until social distancing guidelines are abolished before we allow trainees/route learning etc to recommence.

Social distancing is likely to be here for many many months yet, so other precautions like frequent testing and good hygiene practices should be put forward instead. It's not like 2 people in a cab is a mass gathering or anything, easy to monitor and track 2 people.

 

[StevieH]

I thought the latest advice was social distance whenever possible. Surely we can't wait until social distancing guidelines are abolished before we allow trainees/route learning etc to recommence.

Social distancing is likely to be here for many many months yet, so other precautions like frequent testing and good hygiene practices should be put forward instead. It's not like 2 people in a cab is a mass gathering or anything, easy to monitor and track 2 people.

Yes I would broadly agree with that. You are only meeting with 1 extra person by being in the cab with a trainee so the risk is very small.

Obviously if people have underlying health conditions or live with people that do they should be allowed to decline.

Small points like that need to be worked out but life must go on. I mean if it's safe to play football it must be safe to stay 1.6m from someone.

 

[Eccles1983]

I disagree.

The minder/instructor needs to be able to get across and take control/stop the train as quickly as possible. Impossible to do with many forms of traction without touching the trainee. Even trying to see a Speedo/brake guage is difficult whilst 2m away.

The members are partly at fault here. They should be asking questions of the LDC/health and safety reps for definitive guidance. If it's not forthcoming then procedures are in place via the branch secretary and or regional organiser. To shrug shoulders is a bit weak imo.

At my TOC it's strictly forbidden. No ambiguity.

Ppe has been discussed. The implications of it are that driving hours would be reduced whilst wearing it, and morally is it right to divert supplies from healthcare establishments.

 

[Marvin1979]

its forbidden at my Toc unless you've already accrued a decent amount of hours. Anyone know of when or how the ban may be lifted for those waiting to start their hours?

 

[tiptoptaff]

At my place, all training was halted 8/9 weeks ago when we went in to this "lockdown" - next week, I will return for a week, to complete an exam week I am behind on, along with two others. So a fraction of the number of us who'd normally be in a classroom on an exam week.

As for handling/route learning/other training, that is still suspended. The company have decided that the first people they'll bring back are qualified drivers who are returning to work and require some refresher training, and qualified drivers who had joined just before this, and require some further handling and route learning to get passed. Then, it'll be trainees in order of who's due to pass out next.

Progress being made. But, as long as the 2m rule stays in place it's going to be difficult. A good start, would be the Govt. reducing it, more in line with the WHO 1m guidance. I believe, the 2m rule is more "where possible" than anything else. Best practice, so to speak.

Reducing it would make a massive difference to the industry, not just in terms of driver training - would double capacity overnight. Would also make immense differences to other industries, most notably hospitality, where 1m would mean they could realistically reopen where 2m means they could not.

We're in a state of perpetual fear at the moment. I think latest poll is over 70% of people say it's too soon to be doing anything other than hiding under the covers. We need to move on from that, as a country, before we can do anything else

 

[StevieH]

I disagree.

The minder/instructor needs to be able to get across and take control/stop the train as quickly as possible. Impossible to do with many forms of traction without touching the trainee. Even trying to see a Speedo/brake guage is difficult whilst 2m away.

The members are partly at fault here. They should be asking questions of the LDC/health and safety reps for definitive guidance. If it's not forthcoming then procedures are in place via the branch secretary and or regional organiser. To shrug shoulders is a bit weak imo.

At my TOC it's strictly forbidden. No ambiguity.

Ppe has been discussed. The implications of it are that driving hours would be reduced whilst wearing it, and morally is it right to divert supplies from healthcare establishments.

2m self distancing goes out the window with any in cab training as even just sitting in the 2nd man's seat is less than 2M.

The thing is what are we going to do sit and wait forever and let the railway grind to a complete halt and have mass redundancies or allow people to return to training with parameters in place to protect people with underlying health conditions, live with people that do etc.

The 2M distancing has to be binned for the railway to function anyway as you can't carry any number of passengers that are financially viable with that in place.

So a trainee/trainer being together is a very small risk. As I've said all these measures aren't sustainable for much longer as it will cripple the country. Things in England at least seem to be opening up over the next few weeks so hopefully folk will be back at work and traveling on trains soon.

 

[StevieH]

At my place, all training was halted 8/9 weeks ago when we went in to this "lockdown" - next week, I will return for a week, to complete an exam week I am behind on, along with two others. So a fraction of the number of us who'd normally be in a classroom on an exam week.

As for handling/route learning/other training, that is still suspended. The company have decided that the first people they'll bring back are qualified drivers who are returning to work and require some refresher training, and qualified drivers who had joined just before this, and require some further handling and route learning to get passed. Then, it'll be trainees in order of who's due to pass out next.

Progress being made. But, as long as the 2m rule stays in place it's going to be difficult. A good start, would be the Govt. reducing it, more in line with the WHO 1m guidance. I believe, the 2m rule is more "where possible" than anything else. Best practice, so to speak.

Reducing it would make a massive difference to the industry, not just in terms of driver training - would double capacity overnight. Would also make immense differences to other industries, most notably hospitality, where 1m would mean they could realistically reopen where 2m means they could not.

We're in a state of perpetual fear at the moment. I think latest poll is over 70% of people say it's too soon to be doing anything other than hiding under the covers. We need to move on from that, as a country, before we can do anything else

Yes I quite agree the press and government have whipped up a frenzy of scaremongering which is way over the top.
This is going to hinder getting things back on track going forward.

 

[43066]

Lots of confusion and mixed messages at my place. There is an exemption for “essential training” to keep drivers productive, but trainees are still being trained up, traction courses are still taking place. On the face of it that’s against ASLEF’s policy but nobody really seems to care.

The “spare at home” policy has now been abandoned and the messroom commonly has 10+ drivers sitting around.

 

[43066]

Yes I quite agree the press and government have whipped up a frenzy of scaremongering which is way over the top.
This is going to hinder getting things back on track going forward.

I couldn’t agree more. The government’s messaging has been alarmist and actually too effective.

 

[tiptoptaff]

I couldn’t agree more. The government’s messaging has been alarmist and actually too effective.

Fully agree.

There is also a lot of populism going on and pandering to public opinion.

But that's for a different thread.


Anyway, back to topic. I believe the RSSB urged TOCs to get trainees passed out, to keep everything moving. Evidently it's been felt that's not possible. ASLEF seem against it, and it's hard to tell whether it's based in genuine belief it's dangerous or its playing politics

 

[Efini92]

2m self distancing goes out the window with any in cab training as even just sitting in the 2nd man's seat is less than 2M.

The thing is what are we going to do sit and wait forever and let the railway grind to a complete halt and have mass redundancies or allow people to return to training with parameters in place to protect people with underlying health conditions, live with people that do etc.

The 2M distancing has to be binned for the railway to function anyway as you can't carry any number of passengers that are financially viable with that in place.

So a trainee/trainer being together is a very small risk. As I've said all these measures aren't sustainable for much longer as it will cripple the country. Things in England at least seem to be opening up over the next few weeks so hopefully folk will be back at work and traveling on trains soon.

I have to disagree with you on your last point. How can you say it’s a small risk? This is an extremely fast spreading virus that we don’t really know that much about.

 

[Jon1930]

They should give the trainee and DI the option, if they're both happy to continue the training then there is no problem. Most of the UK dont follow social distancing you can see people in groups in the streets, supermarkets etc. I agree with other posters the risk of being in the cab with just 1 extra person is very small. We've got a couple of trainee drivers at our depot, 130 hours in and been at home for 2 months and eager to get back.

 

[joystick]

How do you know its fast spreading ? if it was that contagious the whole cabinet would have got it, My friends girlfriend got it but he never did .
I think it's about time that they just got on with it.

 

[donpoku]

Again financial wellbeing over physical wellbeing, hope none of you know someone close who's been struck by this horrible virus...

 

[Jon1930]

Some people believe everything the media tells them, new deaths seem to have gone down everywhere. Time to crack on



How do you know its fast spreading ? if it was that contagious the whole cabinet would have got it, My friends girlfriend got it but he never did .
I think it's about time that they just got on with it.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Again financial wellbeing over physical wellbeing, hope none of you know someone close who's been struck by this horrible virus...

This is the exact sort of thing we mean. Fear and hysteria.

Shall we just lock ourselves away forever until no one ever dies of anything ever again?

 

[43066]

I have to disagree with you on your last point. How can you say it’s a small risk? This is an extremely fast spreading virus that we don’t really know that much about.

The risk of dying from this virus if you’re not in a high risk group is very, very low.

 

[43066]

This is the exact sort of thing we mean. Fear and hysteria.

Shall we just lock ourselves away forever until no one ever dies of anything ever again?

Not to mention that people are dying because of lockdown - heart attacks, cancer patients having treatment delayed etc. But nobody seems to care just so long as the death rate from COVID 19 comes down.