Current guidelines regarding driver minding duties

[Llama]

The coronavirus is most contagious when in close proximity and especially in a confined space. Speaking, especially speaking loudly, disperses infective droplets in a similar way to coughing. A train cab with training going on where speaking loudly almost constantly is necessary is pretty much the perfect place for infection.

There are still hundreds of people every day dying of Covid-19.

How hard is it for people to understand.

The talk of "this is crippling the country" is correct, that's what pandemics tend to do if the government's reaction is as delayed and badly managed as the UK's was. It will cripple the country even more if we have to have months more 'lockdown' later this year.

Now is not the time, cases need to be brought down much lower.

At some TOCs at least, a trainee who is newly passed out is neither use nor ornament until they've learnt a much bigger proportion of the routes and traction they'll be expected to work to be productive. Therefore it is not essential fot those trainees to be passed out at the moment as they won't be doing very much anyway.

 

[tiptoptaff]

The risk of dying from this virus if you’re not in a high risk group is very, very low.

Not to mention that people are dying because of lockdown - heart attacks, cancer patients having treatment delayed etc. But nobody seems to care just so long as the death rate from COVID 19 comes down.

0.3% overall. Significantly less if you're not in a high risk group.

I believe the reason so many otherwise low risk NHS staff have died with it, is they had far greater expose than is normal for most of us. Viral load is much higher and more concentrated.

And yep, as long as Covid-19 is controlled then who cares if you die from undiagnosed or untreated cancer, oryou commit suicide after being alone too long or you can't provide for your family in the following economic ruin

 

[tiptoptaff]

The coronavirus is most contagious when in close proximity and especially in a confined space. Speaking, especially speaking loudly, disperses infective droplets in a similar way to coughing. A train cab with training going on where speaking loudly almost constantly is necessary is pretty much the perfect place for infection.

There are still hundreds of people every day dying of Covid-19.

How hard is it for people to understand.

The talk of "this is crippling the country" is correct, that's what pandemics tend to do if the government's reaction is as delayed and badly managed as the UK's was. It will cripple the country even more if we have to have months more 'lockdown' later this year.

Now is not the time, cases need to be brought down much lower.

At some TOCs at least, a trainee who is newly passed out is neither use nor ornament until they've learnt a much bigger proportion of the routes and traction they'll be expected to work to be productive. Therefore it is not essential fot those trainees to be passed out at the moment as they won't be doing very much anyway.

100s still dieing every day from this, but funnily enough not from much else. We didn't stop when anything else killed 100+ people a day.

Daily figures mean very little on their own. Need to compare them to previous weeks, or even better, look at the 7day rolling average for new cases and deaths. Both show a strong, definite and sustained downward trend.

But you're right. Lets never do anything again until a magical vaccine (which may be months, years, decades away, or indeed, never arrive) stops it all.

Lockdown has done what it was supposed to, prevented the NHS becoming overwhelmed. It was never intended to eradicate, and at some point we need to start moving on. It's ridiculous that in the next month or so I could do pretty much anything I used to, except go to work.


And yes it spreads most in confined spaces, but unless trainee or DI, or both, have it, as long as other social distancing is maintained, risk remains very low.

 

[Llama]

We know what happens when the handbrake is taken off. Cases of this disease double every two to three days. We also know that cases will only half over about 8-10 days. It wouldn't take much for things to end up much worse than they were in March.

Bodies in refrigerated trailers outside hospitals? Mass graves? Have people really forgotten? We only just managed to stop the NHS in general being overwhelmed by Covid-19 cases. This is a big part of why other NHS areas are suppressed - there is a correlation.

Passive aggressive responses are poor form, I have have already lost extended family/friends from Covid-19 and I now have very ill family members who have lost both life expectancy and what little quality of life they could enjoy because of the lockdown.

 

[Llama]

Double post, mods please remove.

 

[43066]

We know what happens when the handbrake is taken off. Cases of this disease double every two to three days. We also know that cases will only half over about 8-10 days. It wouldn't take much for things to end up much worse than they were in March.

Bodies in refrigerated trailers outside hospitals? Mass graves? Have people really forgotten? We only just managed to stop the NHS in general being overwhelmed by Covid-19 cases. This is a big part of why other NHS areas are suppressed - there is a correlation.

Passive aggressive responses are poor form, I have have already lost extended family/friends from Covid-19 and I now have very ill family members who have lost both life expectancy and what little quality of life they could enjoy because of the lockdown.

I know of two people who I’ve died of it. Not close, but I’m aware of the human cost.

What you need to remember is that recessions can be as deadly as pandemics. It’s irrational to fixate on reducing death from one cause if this then causes untold economic misery and a huge increase in deaths from other sources.

 

[Efini92]

The risk of dying from this virus if you’re not in a high risk group is very, very low.

It’s not the risk of dying that is the issue. It’s the risk of passing the infection on.

 

[Llama]

It's not as black and white as that. There can be some catch-up, other measures taken etc. They aren't a rewind button but they can help mitigate temporary lapses - e.g. a huge cancer awareness programme.

Those are not viable options though while we are still fighting a pandemic with the highest death toll on the planet. The numbers need to come down further before we start conducting non-essential high-transmission risk activities on public transport. My daily activities don't just entail us sitting in a train cab, they see us have to get in taxis, travel as a passenger on busy trains, be in buildings with dozens of others along with all the other possible vectors. Anyone working in public transport is at a higher risk of infection, and any prolongef close proximity to another individual effectively binds both of their fates as far as coronavirus goes, so infection risk is immediately doubled.

 

[joystick]

So how long do trainees wait then ? till they forget everything or get made redundant ?

 

[43066]

It’s not the risk of dying that is the issue. It’s the risk of passing the infection on.

Which is why people at high risk need to isolate.

I’m not concerned about contracting the virus myself, I’m also not concerned about passing it on to someone who is also low risk.

I’m *very* concerned to see the economy being driven into the ground, friends taking pay cuts or even losing their jobs entirely.

 

[Llama]

So how long do trainees wait then ? till they forget everything or get made redundant ?

Neither. Trainees are in control of their own knowledge, and have the time to revise. There is no excuse for a trainee who hasn't retained what knowledge they have while being sat at home on (in most cases) full pay.

Risk control measures are improving all the time and once the infection rate or case fatality rate are lowered by whatever mitigation is forthcoming then things will improve and society will open up more.

 

[43066]

Neither. Trainees are in control of their own knowledge, and have the time to revise. There is no excuse for a trainee who hasn't retained what knowledge they have while being sat at home on (in most cases) full pay.

Risk control measures are improving all the time and once the infection rate or case fatality rate are lowered by whatever mitigation is forthcoming then things will improve and society will open up more.

Yes but the trainee wage is a huge pay cut for some people. Sitting on that wage for months longer than expected will be a huge strain for many.

 

[StevieH]

Not to mention that people are dying because of lockdown - heart attacks, cancer patients having treatment delayed etc. But nobody seems to care just so long as the death rate from COVID 19 comes down.

Correct plenty people die in road traffic accidents we don't ban car travel. The flu killed 50,000 extra folk 2 years ago again no shutting the country down.

The real deviousness is the deliberate confusion and muddying the waters of number of people dieing with covid rather than number of people dieing due to covid. This is key to the mass hysteria. I bet everyone who died also had some water to drink doesn't mean that water killed them. The so called science and statistics are being deliberately muddyed to hype the hysteria. It's like Saddam and his 45 minutes from weapons of mass destruction again!

 

[StevieH]

Neither. Trainees are in control of their own knowledge, and have the time to revise. There is no excuse for a trainee who hasn't retained what knowledge they have while being sat at home on (in most cases) full pay.

Risk control measures are improving all the time and once the infection rate or case fatality rate are lowered by whatever mitigation is forthcoming then things will improve and society will open up more.

How do you revise practical handling and driving hours from home??????

 

[Llama]

True, and even though there are temporary financial mitigations such as furlough for other family members, mortgage/credit card holidays etc that would be an issue for some people. But at some TOCs the trainee on their trainee wage goes up to the next pay band irrespective of whether they're still in training or not after 12 months on the books. Many trainees at say Northern are well beyond 12 months before they pass out and are considered qualified, so their money has already gone up before they pass out and they'd see no difference.

Trainee wages are also significantly higher than they used to be. The trainee wage at Northern is nearly double what it was when I was a trainee.

 

[Llama]

How do you revise practical handling and driving hours from home??????

There's plenty else you can revise. Most trainees in the midst of their practical handling hours have to be cajoled not to let their rules and traction knowledge slip. Route knowledge can be revised at home. Driving hours will continue and many trainees will be given training needs analyses before they return to the seat which might include more hours to get them back up to speed with train handling and coordination.

 

[43066]

Correct plenty people die in road traffic accidents we don't ban car travel. The flu killed 50,000 extra folk 2 years ago again no shutting the country down.

The real deviousness is the deliberate confusion and muddying the waters of number of people dieing with covid rather than number of people dieing due to covid. This is key to the mass hysteria. I bet everyone who died also had some water to drink doesn't mean that water killed them. The so called science and statistics are being deliberately muddyed to hype the hysteria. It's like Saddam and his 45 minutes from weapons of mass destruction again!

Indeed. The approach is based on populism and irrationality. The government have lost the plot and are clearly making it up as they go along. And don’t get me started on Dominic Cummings.

True, and even though there are temporary financial mitigations such as furlough for other family members, mortgage/credit card holidays etc that would be an issue for some people. But at some TOCs the trainee on their trainee wage goes up to the next pay band irrespective of whether they're still in training or not after 12 months on the books. Many trainees at say Northern are well beyond 12 months before they pass out and are considered qualified, so their money has already gone up before they pass out and they'd see no difference.

Trainee wages are also significantly higher than they used to be. The trainee wage at Northern is nearly double what it was when I was a trainee.

That’s not the case at all TOCs. Don’t get me wrong, we are all lucky to work in this industry, especially at the moment - but being sent home on full trainee pay isn’t good if “full pay” is 50% less than you used to earn, and you have a family to support and a mortgage to service.

 

[lammergeier]

Indeed. The approach is based on populism and irrationality. The government have lost and plot and are clearly making it up as they go along. Don’t get me started on Dominic Cummings.




That’s not the case at all TOCs. Don’t get me wrong we are all lucky to work on this industry - but being sent home on full pay isn’t good it “full pay” is 50% less than you used to earn, and you have a family to support and a mortgage to service.

Don't forget there are plenty of qualified drivers who have been placed on the governments furlough scheme, it's not just trainees who are sat at home. The situation is dire for some, particularly those working for open access.

 

[StevieH]

There's plenty else you can revise. Most trainees in the midst of their practical handling hours have to be cajoled not to let their rules and traction knowledge slip. Route knowledge can be revised at home. Driving hours will continue and many trainees will be given training needs analyses before they return to the seat which might include more hours to get them back up to speed with train handling and coordination.

Nice way not to answer my question. You obviously can't revise practical handling from home you have to go drive with an instructor. You also have to get a minimum number of hours on all traction, in darkness, over all hours etc. Nothing you can do from home can speed any of that up. Hence in can training will have to resume sooner rather than later as you can revise the rules ad infinitum and they will be useless. You also need to use the rules practically whilst driving it's no good just being able to memorise them for an exam there is a difference.

 

[Llama]

Correct plenty people die in road traffic accidents we don't ban car travel. The flu killed 50,000 extra folk 2 years ago again no shutting the country down.

The real deviousness is the deliberate confusion and muddying the waters of number of people dieing with covid rather than number of people dieing due to covid. This is key to the mass hysteria. I bet everyone who died also had some water to drink doesn't mean that water killed them. The so called science and statistics are being deliberately muddyed to hype the hysteria. It's like Saddam and his 45 minutes from weapons of mass destruction again!

Getting into conspiracy stuff now. But on the flip side under lockdown how many people haven't died in road traffic accidents under lockdown, how many fewer flu deaths have there been due to social distancing, how many people have stopped eating rubbish like fast food and eating excessively because they're not available and people can prepare fresh meals instead. How many people are walking or cycling to work when they can. Some people have never had as much time to do exercise. The air is healthier to breathe. A lot of people are realising that their BMI isn't healthy, and Covid 19 & a spare tyre are a higher risk than to someone with a healthy BMI.

These are all factors that need to be taken into context of the financial and mental health issues, they won't wipe out the negative impacts but they'll certainly mitigate a lot. The country's economy was due to be driven off a cliff edge next year anyway!

 

[StevieH]

Indeed. The approach is based on populism and irrationality. The government have lost the plot and are clearly making it up as they go along. And don’t get me started on Dominic Cummings.




That’s not the case at all TOCs. Don’t get me wrong, we are all lucky to work in this industry, especially at the moment - but being sent home on full trainee pay isn’t good if “full pay” is 50% less than you used to earn, and you have a family to support and a mortgage to service.

I don't see it being based on populism (the will of the people) at all. It is a purely synthetic manufactured top down hysteria from the government and media. They use PR companies to create clap for the NHS campaigns etc to AstroTurf a fake organic feeling grassroots movement to get the population frenzied so they are happy for the government to bring in all this nonsense. Just like the old weapons of mass destruction.

 

[Llama]

Nice way not to answer my question. You obviously can't revise practical handling from home you have to go drive with an instructor. You also have to get a minimum number of hours on all traction, in darkness, over all hours etc. Nothing you can do from home can speed any of that up. Hence in can training will have to resume sooner rather than later as you can revise the rules ad infinitum and they will be useless. You also need to use the rules practically whilst driving it's no good just being able to memorise them for an exam there is a difference.

Of course you can't drive a train at home, that doesn't need answering. But practical handling, judging train behaviour and coordination in the cab is one of the easiest things to pick up compared to the theory of it. People say it's like riding a bike and that's not far from the truth. I've trained enough drivers to know vaguely what is important to keep in check in a trainee and what they will pick up naturally.

 

[StevieH]

Getting into conspiracy stuff now. But on the flip side under lockdown how many people haven't died in road traffic accidents under lockdown, how many fewer flu deaths have there been due to social distancing, how many people have stopped eating rubbish like fast food and eating excessively because they're not available and people can prepare fresh meals instead. How many people are walking or cycling to work when they can. Some people have never had as much time to do exercise. The air is healthier to breathe. A lot of people are realising that their BMI isn't healthy, and Covid 19 & a spare tyre are a higher risk than to someone with a healthy BMI.

These are all factors that need to be taken into context of the financial and mental health issues, they won't wipe out the negative impacts but they'll certainly mitigate a lot. The country's economy was due to be driven off a cliff edge next year anyway!

You're right covid is all brexits fault just like your dinner burning or it raining on a bank holiday weekend is Brexits fault hahahaha

 

[StevieH]

Of course you can't drive a train at home, that doesn't need answering. But practical handling, judging train behaviour and coordination in the cab is one of the easiest things to pick up compared to the theory of it. People say it's like riding a bike and that's not far from the truth. I've trained enough drivers to know vaguely what is important to keep in check in a trainee and what they will pick up naturally.

Accruing the mandated driving hours takes longer than any other part of the process hence doing things at home can't speed up being passed out.

 

[43066]

You're right covid is all brexits fault just like your dinner burning or it raining on a bank holiday weekend is Brexits fault hahahaha

It’s funny, isn’t it, how the same people who were warning us about the economic catastrophe that Brexit will cause (I don’t believe it will) are quite happy with a lockdown that will cause ten times as much economic damage!

 

[StevieH]

It’s funny, isn’t it, how the same people who were warning us about the economic catastrophe that Brexit will cause (I don’t believe it will) are quite happy with a lockdown that will cause ten times as much economic damage!

So you believe my dinner burning isn't Brexits fault then?

 

[Llama]

Accruing the mandated driving hours takes longer than any other part of the process hence doing things at home can't speed up being passed out.

It can't speed up being passed out. But it can help trainees revise and hit the ground running when they do get back into the cab. Of course some trainees think they know it all anyway and they're the ones who are the least likely to pass out in the first place.

 

[43066]

So you believe my dinner burning isn't Brexits fault then?

Of course it was.

Everything is down to Brexit. It rained a few days ago, my Deliveroo order was late last night, there’s a skid mark in my toilet.

It’s all down to Brexit.

 

[joystick]

If they reported every death in hospital in a normal year each day people would be terrified, I wish they would stop the daily news conference its just propaganda .

 

[StevieH]

If they reported every death in hospital in a normal year each day people would be terrified, I wish they would stop the daily news conference its just propaganda .

Correct 1600 people died every day before covid all the headlines are pure alarmism. And as I've said there is a massive difference between dieing with covid and dieing because of covid which incidentally they never report.