• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Current guidelines regarding driver minding duties

Status
Not open for further replies.

43066

Established Member
Joined
24 Nov 2019
Messages
9,219
Location
London
Correct 1600 people died every day before covid all the headlines are pure alarmism. And as I've said there is a massive difference between dieing with covid and dieing because of covid which incidentally they never report.

I believe it’s more like 30,000+ deaths per day from all causes.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

joystick

Member
Joined
15 Nov 2016
Messages
104
This is interesting .https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/norway-health-chief-lockdown-was-not-needed-to-tame-covid
 

StevieH

Member
Joined
18 Mar 2020
Messages
104
Location
Stoke
I believe it’s more like 30,000+ deaths per day from all causes.
Sorry I can't see that being correct that times 365 is just under 11 million. 600,000 die a year which divides down to just over 1600 a day. Maybe it will be 11 million after brexit though when we all die because we can't eat Magnum ice cream.
 

StevieH

Member
Joined
18 Mar 2020
Messages
104
Location
Stoke
This is interesting .https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/norway-health-chief-lockdown-was-not-needed-to-tame-covid
Vietnam had the best policy by far. They stopped people from China entering the country very early and quarantined anyone recently arrived from China. Stopped it in its tracks. We should have done the same around Christmas and everyone would have lived happily ever after.
 

Stigy

Established Member
Joined
6 Nov 2009
Messages
4,879
Neither. Trainees are in control of their own knowledge, and have the time to revise. There is no excuse for a trainee who hasn't retained what knowledge they have while being sat at home on (in most cases) full pay
Rubbish. Do you honestly think it’s as simple as that? There are several factors why trainees are unable to, or find it difficult to retain the knowledge they’ve obtained, whilst “sat at home”. Mental health being a massive factor (just being motivated enough to maintain your knowledge could quite easily be a slog for even those not suffering the effects of mental ill-health). It’s not just a case of “revising” half the time either, as it very much depends on a trainee’s learning style. Then there’s kids. Try finding time to lock yourself away for a few hours with two young boys running around causing mayhem.

I’ve been at home for 9 weeks now, as I know a lot of others have. It puts a strain on family life, mental health and the knowledge you’ve gained up to now. Not helped by being held back with winky a few weeks until I expected to have passed out (therefore the salary is still the training salary).

People need to stop reading too much on social media and look at the statistics. This virus is subsiding. The death rate is falling (looking at the weekly average rather than the daily rate), hospital admissions are down, and we’re nearly 3 weeks in to the current easements. It’s fully expected no doubt that we will see a slight rise in hospital admissions and deaths, as that would surely come with the easing of the lockdown?

Social distancing of some description will be in place probably for a year or so? We cannot base our life around social distancing. That would be silly and over the top. The way my TOC is doing it seems sensible if I’m honest, as things are starting to move, which is good. We cannot live in fear forever. 50,000 people die from Sepsis each year, 30,000 suffer out of hospital cardiac arrests.
 
Last edited:

donpoku

Member
Joined
26 May 2015
Messages
359
I'm confused are you saying the lockdown should be abolished for train companies or for every business?
 

StevieH

Member
Joined
18 Mar 2020
Messages
104
Location
Stoke
Rubbish. Do you honestly think it’s as simple as that? There are several factors why trainees are unable to, or find it difficult to retain the knowledge they’ve obtained, whilst “sat at home”. Mental health being a massive factor (just being motivated enough to maintain your knowledge could quite easily be a slog for even those not suffering the effects of mental ill-health). It’s not just a case of “revising” half the time either, as it very much depends on a trainee’s learning style. Then there’s kids. Try finding time to lock yourself away for a few hours with two young boys running around causing mayhem.

I’ve been at home for 9 weeks now, as I know a lot of others have. It puts a strain on family life, mental health and the knowledge you’ve gained up to now. Not helped by being held back with winky a few weeks until I expected to have passed out (therefore the salary is still the training salary).

People need to stop reading too much on social media and look at the statistics. This virus is subsiding. The death rate is falling (looking at the weekly average rather than the daily rate), hospital admissions are down, and we’re nearly 3 weeks in to the current easements. It’s fully expected no doubt that we will see a slight rise in hospital admissions and deaths, as that would surely come with the easing of the lockdown?

Social distancing of some description will be in place probably for a year or so? We cannot base our life around social distancing. That would be silly and over the top. The way my TOC is doing it seems sensible if I’m honest, as things are starting to move, which is good. We cannot live in fear forever. 50,000 people die from Sepsis each year, 30,000 suffer out of hospital cardiac arrests.
Correct and as I've said before there is a difference between being able to do the rules in the classroom and being able to use them practically whilst driving the train. Train handling is by far the biggest part of training and obviously cannot be done from home.
 

Stigy

Established Member
Joined
6 Nov 2009
Messages
4,879
I'm confused are you saying the lockdown should be abolished for train companies or for every business?
I don’t think anybody is saying it should necessarily be “abolished”, but there needs to be a measured approach to this for all industries, and keeping trainees at home for much longer will be counter productive.
 

43066

Established Member
Joined
24 Nov 2019
Messages
9,219
Location
London
Sorry I can't see that being correct that times 365 is just under 11 million. 600,000 die a year which divides down to just over 1600 a day. Maybe it will be 11 million after brexit though when we all die because we can't eat Magnum ice cream.

Seems you’re quite right. No idea where I got that from!

Nonetheless, 30k+ deaths over several months due to this virus, as sad as it is, isn’t enormous in the context of a population of 65 million. And doesn’t justify the continued lockdown, in my opinion.

Rubbish. Do you honestly think it’s as simple as that? There are several factors why trainees are unable to, or find it difficult to retain the knowledge they’ve obtained, whilst “sat at home”. Mental health being a massive factor (just being motivated enough to maintain your knowledge could quite easily be a slog for even those not suffering the effects of mental ill-health). It’s not just a case of “revising” half the time either, as it very much depends on a trainee’s learning style. Then there’s kids. Try finding time to lock yourself away for a few hours with two young boys running around causing mayhem.

I’ve been at home for 9 weeks now, as I know a lot of others have. It puts a strain on family life, mental health and the knowledge you’ve gained up to now. Not helped by being held back with winky a few weeks until I expected to have passed out (therefore the salary is still the training salary).

People need to stop reading too much on social media and look at the statistics. This virus is subsiding. The death rate is falling (looking at the weekly average rather than the daily rate), hospital admissions are down, and we’re nearly 3 weeks in to the current easements. It’s fully expected no doubt that we will see a slight rise in hospital admissions and deaths, as that would surely come with the easing of the lockdown?

Social distancing of some description will be in place probably for a year or so? We cannot base our life around social distancing. That would be silly and over the top. The way my TOC is doing it seems sensible if I’m honest, as things are starting to move, which is good. We cannot live in fear forever. 50,000 people die from Sepsis each year, 30,000 suffer out of hospital cardiac arrests.

I do feel for you there mate. Hope you (and your family) are coming through it ok.

The idea that you can use videos etc. to maintain route knowledge is ridiculous. That’s no substitute for actually driving the thing, as anyone who has done this job of our’s for more than five minutes would know instantly.
 

ComUtoR

Established Member
Joined
13 Dec 2013
Messages
9,399
Location
UK
Rubbish. Do you honestly think it’s as simple as that? There are several factors why trainees are unable to, or find it difficult to retain the knowledge they’ve obtained, whilst “sat at home”. Mental health being a massive factor (just being motivated enough to maintain your knowledge could quite easily be a slog for even those not suffering the effects of mental ill-health). It’s not just a case of “revising” half the time either, as it very much depends on a trainee’s learning style. Then there’s kids. Try finding time to lock yourself away for a few hours with two young boys running around causing mayhem.

It's a hard reality but that is life. Trainees are no different that Drivers in that respect. There are Drivers going through divorce, grieving, dealing with kids, financial difficulties, etc etc. They are still expected to get back in the train and drive it. They are also still expected to retain their knowledge. If you are struggling to maintain your rules and traction knowledge in 9 weeks; how are you going to do that in 9 years ?

Any Trainees having extended periods of time out will have their needs identified by their Instructors and Managers and helped back to competence. This will also happen to Drivers. There are plenty of rules and policies in place for situations where someone takes time off or is long term sick etc. That is the job. Everyone needs to look to the long term. You need to be here in 10yrs time and in that time you will most likely experience another extended period of time off.

My advice for any Trainee who is struggling at this time is to call their Mentor/Instructor/Minder. Discuss how your feeling with your Managers and maybe find something you can do, rather than sit at home. I would also advise any Intstructors etc to give their Trainees a call and offer some reassurance and advice.

Correct and as I've said before there is a difference between being able to do the rules in the classroom and being able to use them practically whilst driving the train.

There is a big difference. However, you would be surprised how little you apply the rulebook to your every day driving. There are parts of the rulebook that you may never apply and then suddenly 16yrs later you get a call from the Signaller about Temporary Block working :/
 

Stigy

Established Member
Joined
6 Nov 2009
Messages
4,879
It's a hard reality but that is life. Trainees are no different that Drivers in that respect. There are Drivers going through divorce, grieving, dealing with kids, financial difficulties, etc etc. They are still expected to get back in the train and drive it. They are also still expected to retain their knowledge. If you are struggling to maintain your rules and traction knowledge in 9 weeks; how are you going to do that in 9 years ?
This is a completely unprecedented time and as such, completely different to routinely maintaining a competency. I appreciate it’s the individual’s responsibility to retain their rules knowledge etc, and that won’t be an issue in general terms. The issue here is the effect lockdown and staying at home specifically has on trainees. Trainees who, let’s not forget, are new to train driving. It’s so easy to forget things at this stage, with being left to your own devices. I’m not making excuses, but the poster I was responding to in my initial post made it sound like it’s easy enough just to revise and retain knowledge when we’re sitting around. It’s not.
 

43066

Established Member
Joined
24 Nov 2019
Messages
9,219
Location
London
This is a completely unprecedented time and as such, completely different to routinely maintaining a competency. I appreciate it’s the individual’s responsibility to retain their rules knowledge etc, and that won’t be an issue in general terms. The issue here is the effect lockdown and staying at home specifically has on trainees. Trainees who, let’s not forget, are new to train driving. It’s so easy to forget things at this stage, with being left to your own devices. I’m not making excuses, but the poster I was responding to in my initial post made it sound like it’s easy enough just to revise and retain knowledge when we’re sitting around. It’s not.

I see where Com is coming from, but I agree with you on this. Knowledge is a lot more perishable when you’re new to the route/traction. If you’ve been driving the same route for years a few weeks off won’t really matter - but that’s not the case as a brand new driver, or as an experienced driver whose new to the route.

I’m fairly new to my current routes and a bit concerned about how much my knowledge had faded because I’ve done barely any driving for weeks. So much so that I’m toying with asking for some time with an instructor.
 

joystick

Member
Joined
15 Nov 2016
Messages
104
There is no justification now not to have trainees in cab or route learners. At least ask the Di is happy to take you .
 

StevieH

Member
Joined
18 Mar 2020
Messages
104
Location
Stoke
It's a hard reality but that is life. Trainees are no different that Drivers in that respect. There are Drivers going through divorce, grieving, dealing with kids, financial difficulties, etc etc. They are still expected to get back in the train and drive it. They are also still expected to retain their knowledge. If you are struggling to maintain your rules and traction knowledge in 9 weeks; how are you going to do that in 9 years ?

Any Trainees having extended periods of time out will have their needs identified by their Instructors and Managers and helped back to competence. This will also happen to Drivers. There are plenty of rules and policies in place for situations where someone takes time off or is long term sick etc. That is the job. Everyone needs to look to the long term. You need to be here in 10yrs time and in that time you will most likely experience another extended period of time off.

My advice for any Trainee who is struggling at this time is to call their Mentor/Instructor/Minder. Discuss how your feeling with your Managers and maybe find something you can do, rather than sit at home. I would also advise any Intstructors etc to give their Trainees a call and offer some reassurance and advice.



There is a big difference. However, you would be surprised how little you apply the rulebook to your every day driving. There are parts of the rulebook that you may never apply and then suddenly 16yrs later you get a call from the Signaller about Temporary Block working :/
Quite frankly if you are grieving or going through a divorce you would be stupid to be in working. When I was at training school we were told many times that if we ever get in that scenario you should go off with stress as you are just asking for an incident. This is a safety critical job with the responsibility for the safety of up to 800 people after all part of being a train driver is judging when you aren't fit for work it's your licence and livelihood at risk.

Secondly the main point is there is no reason why the majority of training shouldn't be back up and running anyway now. With the few exceptions for people with underlying health conditions. Returning to training would resolve all these problems.

Using the DRA remembering to slow down to 5mph a unit length off the buffers etc etc are used every journey but there is a difference between knowing that in an exam and being able to apply it practically especially when distracted by all the things that happen during the course of the day.
 

ComUtoR

Established Member
Joined
13 Dec 2013
Messages
9,399
Location
UK
I agree its not easy but that doesn't change your responsibilities as a Trainee or Driver. The railway can be a horrid and unforgiving place. You will 100% be expected to follow an obscure rule that you have never ever used. This doesn't change because of Corona or because you have been off sick for 2 weeks. We had a signal brief a few months ago. The signalling has been put back due to the pandemic and one random weekend in the future it will change. I will be expected to pull the random route indication I learned a few months ago and not get wrong routed into a terminal platform.

It isn't easy but it doesn't change and it will only get worse. Part of the skill-set and responsibility of being a Driver is that we retain the knowledge, work through hardship and do everything we can to maintain a safe railway. If you are struggling, ask for help. Ask for support and push your TOC on their responsibility. A TOC has a responsibility to its staff and should have all kinds of welfare policies in place and have a chain of care for those who need it.

Being a Trainee is a long and difficult journey and nobody has said otherwise but that shiny key and big fat pay check comes with responsibilities.

As a Driver, being asked to come to work during a global pandemic is just as hard on your mental health. Being put under pressure to take a Trainee is hard on the Instructors too. There is a genuine risk and a genuine concern about putting money and jobs before life. If I came home and passed Corona to my Son I would never forgive myself. However, I still gotta go to work each day through this crisis. We are all in this and everyone needs to work together to get out of it. Unfortunately that means that some people need to stay at home to maintain social distancing and protect collegues at work who need to be there to run the service.
 

ComUtoR

Established Member
Joined
13 Dec 2013
Messages
9,399
Location
UK
Quite frankly if you are grieving or going through a divorce you would be stupid to be in working. When I was at training school we were told many times that if we ever get in that scenario you should go off with stress as you are just asking for an incident. This is a safety critical job with the responsibility for the safety of up to 800 people after all part of being a train driver is judging when you aren't fit for work it's your licence and livelihood at risk.

People grieve differently and we need to respect those who want to work and those who don't. That said you still need to remember that it involves an extended time off work. My point is that there are plenty of times where you will have an extending time off work for various reasons. You will ALWAYS be expected to maintain your rules and regs, route knowledge and stay up to date with the usual changes.

As to your last part. Part of being both a Driver and an Employee is accepting that there are times where you will not be working. As others have highlighted, the more people you come into contact with, the higher the risk. Mess rooms filling up is a worry. Coming back to work may put others at risk. I know its a struggle for some and Trainees going through their hours have their own unique issues but the current pause in training is there to protect everyone.

As soon as possible the TOCs will resume training. This has to be done from a business perspective as well as protecting staff. ASLEF will also be looking to resume training. How many Trainees are in ASLEF and are willing to ignore the unions advice because they want the key and the pay.
 

craigybagel

Established Member
Joined
25 Oct 2012
Messages
5,061
I disagree.

The minder/instructor needs to be able to get across and take control/stop the train as quickly as possible. Impossible to do with many forms of traction without touching the trainee. Even trying to see a Speedo/brake guage is difficult whilst 2m away.

The members are partly at fault here. They should be asking questions of the LDC/health and safety reps for definitive guidance. If it's not forthcoming then procedures are in place via the branch secretary and or regional organiser. To shrug shoulders is a bit weak imo.

At my TOC it's strictly forbidden. No ambiguity.

Ppe has been discussed. The implications of it are that driving hours would be reduced whilst wearing it, and morally is it right to divert supplies from healthcare establishments.

Indeed, and I think one of the good things about the lack of ambiguity at our TOC is that everyone has just accepted it and is getting on with things and it doesn't seem to be having an impact on morale.

We've even got trainees who've completed their hours and were just waiting for a manager to pass them out who've been furloughed. It's a horrible situation but sadly necessary. The exact requirements haven't been set in stone yet but they're going to need some degree of time when they do come back to get back in to the routine of driving, and brush up on their route and traction knowledge, so even when they do come back they'll still have a while before they can pass out
 

LOM

Member
Joined
26 Dec 2019
Messages
405
Location
Been and gone.
Just thought people may be interested in how NR is approaching training for signallers in current circumstances. Signalling school courses are ongoing with social distancing and reduced class sizes. Location specific training in signalboxes is taking place with use of facemasks and gloves if the 2m distancing cannot be met, which for appropriate levels of supervision is most of the time. Some locations have temperature checks and extra cleaning in place too. This is all with the agreement of the RMT.
 
Last edited:

StevieH

Member
Joined
18 Mar 2020
Messages
104
Location
Stoke
Just thought people may be interested in how NR is approaching training for signallers in current circumstances. Signalling school courses are ongoing with social distancing and reduced class size signalling. Location specific training in signalboxes is taking place with use of facemasks and gloves if the 2m distancing cannot be met at all times, which for appropriate levels of supervision is most of the time. Some locations have temperature checks and extra cleaning in place too. This is all with the agreement of the RMT.
That's very interesting thanks for sharing. Would sound like a very plausible template for resuming driver training.
 

C001

Member
Joined
30 Aug 2019
Messages
148
All training stopped at my FOC but believe they are trying to get us back for the 4th July, weather that happens or not I don’t know, only done 23 hours handling anyway-long way to go yet.
 

donpoku

Member
Joined
26 May 2015
Messages
359
So we all seem to be coming to a general consensus of an effective 'Agreed safety measure' in place to get things moving, don't you think that's what the Govt along with TOC's and other business are working on to get the country moving again? Don't you know the Lockdown easement phase has commenced.

I'm just astonished at the lack of insensitivity in this place, I mean the Govt may not have got it right from the beginning but taking extreme measures to protect lives when they did and some of you to nonchalantly dismissed it as unnecessary is just WOW...
 

StevieH

Member
Joined
18 Mar 2020
Messages
104
Location
Stoke
So we all seem to be coming to a general consensus of an effective 'Agreed safety measure' in place to get things moving, don't you think that's what the Govt along with TOC's and other business are working on to get the country moving again? Don't you know the Lockdown easement phase has commenced.

I'm just astonished at the lack of insensitivity in this place, I mean the Govt may not have got it right from the beginning but taking extreme measures to protect lives when they did and some of you to nonchalantly dismissed it as unnecessary is just WOW...
The politicians have trashed the country and kept us under house arrest for something that has "killed" 15,000 less than the bad flu season 2 years ago. That is why folk are fed up of this exteme over reaction. The reporting of the whole thing is so blatantly alarmist why should we not be nonchalant? 34000 died with covid not because of it. They refuse to say how many have died because of covid. If I have a mars bar and then die doesn't mean the mars bar killed me but you could record my death as dieing with a mars bar.

The other factor is hardly anyone of working age in good health is dieing with this most people should be back at work and we can shield the vulnerable.
 

joystick

Member
Joined
15 Nov 2016
Messages
104
Everybody has different ideas on risk, you may think that going to the moon is too risky but others are prepared to go.
 

martin2345uk

Established Member
Joined
21 Sep 2011
Messages
2,052
Location
Essex
I got furloughed just after I qualified, so I haven't driven a train on my own yet, in fact it's almost 10 weeks since I drove one at all - even though I am technically qualified, I am certainly going to be requesting a couple of trips out with a mentor to get back into things.

I've been revising rules almost daily since being off, and my FOC have arranged some Zoom revision sessions which is nice.

I still don't know when I will start route learning or what my route will be.
 

Tomnick

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2005
Messages
5,826
Our place has stopped virtually all training, although they did at least manage to find a way for trainees who nearly had their hours in to get passed out.

My personal thoughts, relating to the situation generally:

Firstly, leaving it up to individuals to decide what they're happy with is, in my view, not ideal. Mentors don't want to let their trainees down. Trainees don't want to be seen to be being awkward. Many drivers just want to keep their head down and do as they're asked. There should be agreement at a high level, and clear guidance through both the union and the management.

Secondly, social distancing. It's not really about the personal safety of the two people in the cab - it's about limiting the spread of the virus for the greater good (e.g. if the mentor has it and passes it to the trainee, how many other people will the trainee then go on to infect?). We're then back to the need for clear guidance about what is and what isn't acceptable.

PPE? I've not yet felt the need to use any myself. It must be a clear barrier to communication though, whether that's between trainee and mentor or between driver and signalman (or other parties). Can anyone confirm or deny? If you're having to keep removing your mask so that you can be understood then replacing it afterwards (I've seen this happen), then you're probably defeating the object of wearing it!

That said, I recognise that we can't hide from this thing forever, and that the social distancing (etc.) measures are intended to control its spread rather than eliminate it altogether, so in turn it's about minimising contact rather than removing absolutely all risk of transmission. On that basis, you probably could make a case, generally, for training to be permitted, with exceptions for folk who do have a genuine concern. Again, one for agreement and clear guidance from the top of the tree?
 

Red Devil

Member
Joined
6 Jan 2016
Messages
249
Which is why people at high risk need to isolate.

I’m not concerned about contracting the virus myself, I’m also not concerned about passing it on to someone who is also low risk.

I’m *very* concerned to see the economy being driven into the ground, friends taking pay cuts or even losing their jobs entirely.
That's a dreadful statement to make!
You're not concerned about infecting other people. This virus doesn't discriminate between high and low risk no matter how much you'd want it to.
I know someone who works on a respiratory ward that had 22 deaths in a night including a number who had no underlying factors and were young enough to be in the low risk category. Tell their relatives how unconcerned you are of spreading the virus!
 

StevieH

Member
Joined
18 Mar 2020
Messages
104
Location
Stoke
That's a dreadful statement to make!
You're not concerned about infecting other people. This virus doesn't discriminate between high and low risk no matter how much you'd want it to.
I know someone who works on a respiratory ward that had 22 deaths in a night including a number who had no underlying factors and were young enough to be in the low risk category. Tell their relatives how unconcerned you are of spreading the virus!
I'm afraid your emotional reaction doesn't match the statistical reality. Under 45s make up 1% of the deaths and 88% are from over 65. More people under 45 die in car crashes we don't shut the roads do we.

One of my neighbours works in a covid ward and says it's empty.

 

BrokenSam

Member
Joined
18 May 2020
Messages
231
Location
North Wales
Look, we are all bored with this thing but it isn't an emotional reaction to be concerned. Also that car crash stuff is just plain whataboutism. The fact is, nigh on 40000 people have died from an relative unknown. Majority of them would have still been here if Covid wasn't. Age range of victims is irrelevant really. It's still people.
 

Red Devil

Member
Joined
6 Jan 2016
Messages
249
I'm afraid your emotional reaction doesn't match the statistical reality. Under 45s make up 1% of the deaths and 88% are from over 65. More people under 45 die in car crashes we don't shut the roads do we.

One of my neighbours works in a covid ward and says it's empty.

Mine was not an emotional reaction. And statistics are irrelevant if it was one of your family who died as a result of the OP's laissez faire attitude.
 

tiptoptaff

Established Member
Joined
15 Feb 2013
Messages
2,983
Mine was not an emotional reaction. And statistics are irrelevant if it was one of your family who died as a result of the OP's laissez faire attitude.
So we just hide away forever and ever until we never die of anything any more?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top