Current guidelines regarding driver minding duties

[StevieH]

Mine was not an emotional reaction. And statistics are irrelevant if it was one of your family who died as a result of the OP's laissez faire attitude.

It certainly wasn't an accurate reaction and you are again playing to emotion trying to guilt trip me about people who have died which doesn't change the fact if you are of working age and healthy you should be at work and out enjoying yourself not under house arrest.

 

[BrokenSam]

So we just hide away forever and ever until we never die of anything any more?

Pretty sure they didn't say that.

 

[StevieH]

Look, we are all bored with this thing but it isn't an emotional reaction to be concerned. Also that car crash stuff is just plain whataboutism. The fact is, nigh on 40000 people have died from an relative unknown. Majority of them would have still been here if Covid wasn't. Age range of victims is irrelevant really. It's still people.

It's not whataboutism at all it's a clear and stark comparison of reactions to types of deaths car crashes killing far more under 45s.

The age range of victims is the most relevant factor. The over 65s need to take steps to keep safe and isolate. The under 45s don't.

 

[Red Devil]

So we just hide away forever and ever until we never die of anything any more?

Of course not and I wasn't making that point.
My objection was the couldn't care less attitude of the OP whether he infected someone or not.
I'm an instructor and I'd be quite happy to have trainees back with me providing all precautions are taken to lessen the chances of infection.
You can't prevent road deaths but you wouldn't drive 120mph in a 30 and think it risk free.

 

[Aivilo]

Of course not and I wasn't making that point.
My objection was the couldn't care less attitude of the OP whether he infected someone or not.
I'm an instructor and I'd be quite happy to have trainees back with me providing all precautions are taken to lessen the chances of infection.
You can't prevent road deaths but you wouldn't drive 120mph in a 30 and think it risk free.

Be interesting to see if assessing continues. Manager or trainee doesn't matter if they're in the cab

 

[BrokenSam]

It's not whataboutism at all it's a clear and stark comparison of reactions to types of deaths car crashes killing far more under 45s.

The age range of victims is the most relevant factor. The over 65s need to take steps to keep safe and isolate. The under 45s don't.

Are car crashes contagious? No. So they can't be compared as it doesn't make sense.

It's not just the over 65s too as we all have a part to play on keeping them safe.

I agree it's time to move forward and get trainees out if safety can be guaranteed, but let's not start pretending that this thing isn't that serious, regardless of age.

 

[StevieH]

Are car crashes contagious? No. So they can't be compared as it doesn't make sense.

It's not just the over 65s too as we all have a part to play on keeping them safe.

I agree it's time to move forward and get trainees out if safety can be guaranteed, but let's not start pretending that this thing isn't that serious, regardless of age.

It can be compared and makes perfect sense we are talking about a risk to life and what measures to take as a result of said risk. Car crashes are a higher risk of death to under 45s but we still take that risk in order to live normal fulfilling lives.

 

[BrokenSam]

You can mitigate a car crash by not driving a car. The virus is more difficult to mitigate.

 

[StevieH]

You can mitigate a car crash by not driving a car. The virus is more difficult to mitigate.

Yes but nobody takes that attitude do they we still all drive and think nothing of it even though it is statistically more dangerous to under 45s than covid.

 

[43066]

That's a dreadful statement to make!
You're not concerned about infecting other people. This virus doesn't discriminate between high and low risk no matter how much you'd want it to.
I know someone who works on a respiratory ward that had 22 deaths in a night including a number who had no underlying factors and were young enough to be in the low risk category. Tell their relatives how unconcerned you are of spreading the virus!

This is completely over the top and hysterical. It’s not a “dreadful statement” it’s based on being reasonable.

Of course I’m doing my bit by following social distancing etc but as rail staff I have no option but to go to work, so I’m probably at a slightly higher risk than most of contracting and transmitting the virus. That doesn’t terrify me in the way that it seems to some others, because I’m rational enough to realise that, as a low risk person, the statistical likelihood of dying from it is very low.

Yes there are some with no underlying conditions who have died “with” the virus - but they are statistical outliers and that doesn’t affect the risk on an individual level.

What about the deaths that are being caused by this lockdown to people whose heart operations have been cancelled, delayed cancer diagnoses, delayed chemotherapy etc.? What about the fact that vulnerable people are unable to access mental health services or even visit their GPs?

Or do they not matter?

 

[tiptoptaff]

This is completely over the top and hysterical. It’s not a “dreadful statement” it’s based on being reasonable.

Of course I’m doing my bit by following social distancing etc but as rail staff I have no option but to go to work, so I’m probably at a slightly higher risk than most of contracting and transmitting the virus. That doesn’t terrify me in the way that it seems to some others, because I’m rational enough to realise that, as a low risk person, the statistical likelihood of dying from it is very low.

Yes there are some with no underlying conditions who have died “with” the virus - but they are statistical outliers and that doesn’t affect the risk on an individual level.

What about the deaths that are being caused by this lockdown to people whose heart operations have been cancelled, delayed cancer diagnoses, delayed chemotherapy etc.? What about the fact that vulnerable people are unable to access mental health services or even visit their GPs?

Or do they not matter?

Apparently nobody matters if they don't have Covid.

Meanwhile here in Wales, for another 3 weeks we'll see very little progress and lots of people hailing Drakeford (the most hapless leader in the UK) as some form of hero. All because we're just being different to England. Our rule is can't see family if they're more than 5miles away. It's such an arbitrary distance, it's basically cruel. We're still not allowed unlimited exercise or to drive anywhere.

All of the above is based on following the public's fear, rather than trying to dispel it by saying "this is what we can actually do"

Some good progress made this week for @Stigy and I, appears that ASLEF have agreed a reduced social distancing distance, which would allow 2per cab to resume. Finally something sensible is happening

 

[StevieH]

Apparently nobody matters if they don't have Covid.

Meanwhile here in Wales, for another 3 weeks we'll see very little progress and lots of people hailing Drakeford (the most hapless leader in the UK) as some form of hero. All because we're just being different to England. Our rule is can't see family if they're more than 5miles away. It's such an arbitrary distance, it's basically cruel. We're still not allowed unlimited exercise or to drive anywhere.

All of the above is based on following the public's fear, rather than trying to dispel it by saying "this is what we can actually do"

Some good progress made this week for @Stigy and I, appears that ASLEF have agreed a reduced social distancing distance, which would allow 2per cab to resume. Finally something sensible is happening

That's good to know you guys might get back training

 

[tiptoptaff]

That's good to know you guys might get back training

I'm still anticipating a bit of a wait yet, got a group ahead of us at my depot along with drivers who need assessments and return to works. But things are moving again and that is only a good thing

 

[Red Devil]

This is completely over the top and hysterical. It’s not a “dreadful statement” it’s based on being reasonable.

Of course I’m doing my bit by following social distancing etc but as rail staff I have no option but to go to work, so I’m probably at a slightly higher risk than most of contracting and transmitting the virus. That doesn’t terrify me in the way that it seems to some others, because I’m rational enough to realise that, as a low risk person, the statistical likelihood of dying from it is very low.

Yes there are some with no underlying conditions who have died “with” the virus - but they are statistical outliers and that doesn’t affect the risk on an individual level.

What about the deaths that are being caused by this lockdown to people whose heart operations have been cancelled, delayed cancer diagnoses, delayed chemotherapy etc.? What about the fact that vulnerable people are unable to access mental health services or even visit their GPs?

Or do they not matter?

Of course everyone matters. That's why your statement that you're not bothered who you pass it on to so poor.
And "statistical outliers " are all someone's beloved no matter how few of them there are

 

[43066]

Of course everyone matters. That's why your statement that you're not bothered who you pass it on to so poor.
And "statistical outliers " are all someone's beloved no matter how few of them there are

That’s not quite what I said. I said I’m not bothered about catching it myself because I’m at vanishingly low risk. It follows that I’m also not bothered about passing to someone else who is also at vanishingly low risk - although I am following socially distancing to minimise the risk of catching/transmitting.

High risk people should still be isolating so anyone I come into contact with out and about will (or should) be low risk.

It’s not a “poor” or a “dreadful” statement, it’s a perfectly reasonable one. You are using emotive language to try and shut down rational debate.

 

[John Bishop]

Apparently nobody matters if they don't have Covid.

Meanwhile here in Wales, for another 3 weeks we'll see very little progress and lots of people hailing Drakeford (the most hapless leader in the UK) as some form of hero. All because we're just being different to England. Our rule is can't see family if they're more than 5miles away. It's such an arbitrary distance, it's basically cruel. We're still not allowed unlimited exercise or to drive anywhere.

All of the above is based on following the public's fear, rather than trying to dispel it by saying "this is what we can actually do"

Some good progress made this week for @Stigy and I, appears that ASLEF have agreed a reduced social distancing distance, which would allow 2per cab to resume. Finally something sensible is happening

Interesting, do you have a link to this from ASLEF at all?

 

[Tooktook]

Re 43066- I’m pretty sure your statement a couple posts up could be levelled as using emotive language:

Quote 43066
What about the deaths that are being caused by this lockdown to people whose heart operations have been cancelled, delayed cancer diagnoses, delayed chemotherapy etc.? What about the fact that vulnerable people are unable to access mental health services or even visit their GPs?

Or do they not matter?
End quote

I’m not sure anyone said these things don’t matter ??? Of course they do.

There’s a nice little echo chamber on here with a few posters saying debate is being stifled but disagreeing with anyone opposes them. And saying things like ‘correct.’ As if they know some objective truth.

Also analogies about car travel and going to the moon. Which personally I don’t feel relate to a global pandemic.

 

[Jon1930]

Where did you hear about ASLEF allowing to resume driver training? Cant see anything on their website.

Apparently nobody matters if they don't have Covid.

Meanwhile here in Wales, for another 3 weeks we'll see very little progress and lots of people hailing Drakeford (the most hapless leader in the UK) as some form of hero. All because we're just being different to England. Our rule is can't see family if they're more than 5miles away. It's such an arbitrary distance, it's basically cruel. We're still not allowed unlimited exercise or to drive anywhere.

All of the above is based on following the public's fear, rather than trying to dispel it by saying "this is what we can actually do"

Some good progress made this week for @Stigy and I, appears that ASLEF have agreed a reduced social distancing distance, which would allow 2per cab to resume. Finally something sensible is happening

 

[43066]

Re 43066- I’m pretty sure your statement a couple posts up could be levelled as using emotive language:

Quote 43066
What about the deaths that are being caused by this lockdown to people whose heart operations have been cancelled, delayed cancer diagnoses, delayed chemotherapy etc.? What about the fact that vulnerable people are unable to access mental health services or even visit their GPs?

Or do they not matter?
End quote

I’m not sure anyone said these things don’t matter ??? Of course they do.

There’s a nice little echo chamber on here with a few posters saying debate is being stifled but disagreeing with anyone opposes them. And saying things like ‘correct.’ As if they know some objective truth.

Also analogies about car travel and going to the moon. Which personally I don’t feel relate to a global pandemic.

At the risk of splitting hairs I would disagree. My original (factual) statement was called out as “dreadful” and “poor” (and misquoted).

Asking about the deaths which are known to be occurring from other causes as a direct result of lockdown is also factual, as is referring to statistical outliers of (rare) cases of low risk victims dying. The fact that each death is sad doesn’t change the fact they are outliers.

Surely what we all want is to minimise the combined death rate from all causes. Whatever we do people are sadly going to continue to die from the virus. But if the excess deaths from lockdown (and the forthcoming recession) ends up far exceeding the number of COVID victims then the cure has become worse than the disease.

EDIT: (and apologies for going off topic).

 

[Red Devil]

At the risk of splitting hairs I would disagree. My original (factual) statement was called out as “dreadful” and “poor” (and misquoted).

Asking about the deaths which are known to be occurring from other causes as a direct result of lockdown is also factual, as is referring to statistical outliers of (rare) cases of low risk victims dying. The fact that each death is sad doesn’t change the fact they are outliers.

Surely what we all want is to minimise the combined death rate from all causes. Whatever we do people are sadly going to continue to die from the virus. But if the excess deaths from lockdown (and the forthcoming recession) ends up far exceeding the number of COVID victims then the cure has become worse than the disease.

EDIT: (and apologies for going off topic).

There's one thing I didn't do and that's misquote you.

 

[Joliver]

I personally would be happy to have someone in the cab with me now. Like other posters have alluded to, the lockdown was all about not overwhelming the NHS, which has been achieved.
Boris has asked the scientists, if its safe to reduce the distancing to 1m, if this is approved then normal working will continue.

Just on a side note. My wife is an intensive care nurse. She's seen first hand that demand has come right down. So much so, that the hospitals/trust she works for are scaling down dedicated Covid wards.
A vaccine won't magically make the virus disappear, just as the flu vaccine doesn't. And remember, we still have 10,000+ deaths most flu seasons, even with the vaccine and there is no shielding for that.

It's time to get going again.

 

[StevieH]

I personally would be happy to have someone in the cab with me now. Like other posters have alluded to, the lockdown was all about not overwhelming the NHS, which has been achieved.
Boris has asked the scientists, if its safe to reduce the distancing to 1m, if this is approved then normal working will continue.

Just on a side note. My wife is an intensive care nurse. She's seen first hand that demand has come right down. So much so, that the hospitals/trust she works for are scaling down dedicated Covid wards.
A vaccine won't magically make the virus disappear, just as the flu vaccine doesn't. And remember, we still have 10,000+ deaths most flu seasons, even with the vaccine and there is no shielding for that.

It's time to get going again.

I echo your sentiments.

 

[the sniper]

I echo your sentiments.

I don't think you needed to. The half-witted comparisons to Brexit, seemingly writing off the large number of additional deaths as some kind of slight statistical anomaly and the insinuation of conspiracy theories rather gave the impression that weren't for 'Lockdown'...

 

[StevieH]

I don't think you needed to. The half-witted comparisons to Brexit, seemingly writing off the large number of additional deaths as some kind of slight statistical anomaly and the insinuation of conspiracy theories rather gave the impression that weren't for 'Lockdown'...

I slept in this morning all because of Brexit I'll have you know!

I'm glad you held candle lit vigils for the 50,000 extra people that died of the flu 2 years ago seen as you are so much more concerned about people dieing than callous little old me!

Official statistics showing under 45s account for only 1% of deaths is fact not conspiracy theory. But you probably blame your sunburn from today's hot weather on Brexit conspiracy theories!

 

[StevieH]

Apparently nobody matters if they don't have Covid.

Meanwhile here in Wales, for another 3 weeks we'll see very little progress and lots of people hailing Drakeford (the most hapless leader in the UK) as some form of hero. All because we're just being different to England. Our rule is can't see family if they're more than 5miles away. It's such an arbitrary distance, it's basically cruel. We're still not allowed unlimited exercise or to drive anywhere.

All of the above is based on following the public's fear, rather than trying to dispel it by saying "this is what we can actually do"

Some good progress made this week for @Stigy and I, appears that ASLEF have agreed a reduced social distancing distance, which would allow 2per cab to resume. Finally something sensible is happening

I won't have that said about Drakeford! Sturgeon is far worse!

 

[the sniper]

I slept in this morning all because of Brexit I'll have you know!

I'm glad you held candle lit vigils for the 50,000 extra people that died of the flu 2 years ago seen as you are so much more concerned about people dieing than callous little old me!

Official statistics showing under 45s account for only 1% of deaths is fact not conspiracy theory. But you probably blame your sunburn from today's hot weather on Brexit conspiracy theories!

Do you not think that many more people would have died had 'Lockdown' not happened? You're comparing the number of deaths caused by the Flu, which essentially was able to naturally max out that season in an open society, to the deaths caused by Convid 19, which have undoubtedly been limited by a massive reduction in people being exposed to one another.

 

[StevieH]

Do you not think that many more people would have died had 'Lockdown' not happened? You're comparing the number of deaths caused by the Flu, which essentially was able to naturally max out that season in an open society, to the deaths caused by Convid 19, which have undoubtedly been limited by a massive reduction in people being exposed to one another.

We don't know how many people have ACTUALLY died of covid as dieing with covid doesn't mean they died because of.

We could have saved a lot of the 50,000 flu victims if we put everyone under house arrest but we didn't!

I am in favour of some sort of lockdown and measures for over 65s but anything else is madness.

Quite frankly if the politicians had closed the borders at Christmas that would have saved far far more lives and we would never have needed lockdown that ultimately is the reason we are in this state and we must hold the politicians to account for the mass destruction of the country they have caused as a result!

 

[43066]

Do you not think that many more people would have died had 'Lockdown' not happened? You're comparing the number of deaths caused by the Flu, which essentially was able to naturally max out that season in an open society, to the deaths caused by Convid 19, which have undoubtedly been limited by a massive reduction in people being exposed to one another.

Clearly measures needed to be taken to prevent the NHS from being overrun. But the approach taken by Sweden, for example, doesn’t seem to have led to a markedly worse situation than we find ourselves in - and is potentially less economically damaging.

 

[43066]

We could have saved a lot of the 50,000 flu victims if we put everyone under house arrest but we didn't!

Indeed.

 

[the sniper]

Clearly measures needed to be taken to prevent the NHS from being overrun. But the approach taken by Sweden, for example, doesn’t seem to have led to a markedly worse situation than we find ourselves in - and is potentially less economically damaging.

Have you ever been to Sweden or Scandinavia? Maybe you can compare the Scandinavian countries to each other, but Sweden is so different from GB that comparisons between us and them are virtually worthless. Maybe you could compare Stockholm to a British city, but even choosing a British city which is largely similar to that is fraught with difficulty.