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Cwmbran to Ebbw Vale - Break of journey query

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Scouse77

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I wish to travel from Cwmbran to Ebbw Vale tomorrow. I have a meeting in Cardiff at 9am. Then I have to travel to Ebbw Vale in the evening. Now, as the Ebbw Vale train goes from Cardiff would I be permitted to use this as a break of journey if I purchased a Cwmbran to Ebbw Vale single?
 
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yorkie

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Yes, the Anytime Day Single (SDS) routed "Any Permitted" is valid for break of journey at any intermediate station on any permitted route.
 

John @ home

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A break of journey at Cardiff Central is permitted with a £14.10 Anytime Day Single Cwmbran - Ebbw Vale Town route Any Permitted ticket. It is not permitted with a £11.10 Anytime Day Single Cwmbran - Ebbw Vale Town route Not Via Cardiff ticket. All Cwmbran - Ebbw Vale fares are here.
 

Paul Kelly

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I think that fare is intended for travel via Cardiff, but it doesn't appear to be a permitted route. In fact as the routeing guide currently stands there are no possible permitted routes at all between Cwmbran and Ebbw Vale Parkway unless you happen to travel on one of the rare occasions that trains on the Ebbw Vale line are running to/from Newport. There probably should be an easement to allow travel via Cardiff on other days.

In any case, there is no need to buy the ANY PERMITTED fare as it is 30p cheaper to split tickets at Cardiff:
Cwmbran - Cardiff Central Anytime Day Single £8.10
Cardiff Central to Ebbw Vale Parkway Anytime Day Single £5.70
Total £13.80
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I should probably qualify that to say that it's very reasonable to argue that on days when there is no service between Newport and the Ebbw Vale line, that the shortest route is via Cardiff, and thus the route is permitted. But the electronic mileage data that ATOC supplies to booking engines and journey planners has no concept of variations in service patterns, so they will all show the route as not permitted.
 

yorkie

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It is the shortest route but they really need to add mapped routes!

I wonder if ATOC will fix this as quickly as they fix errors in our favour?
 

John @ home

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as the routeing guide currently stands there are no possible permitted routes at all between Cwmbran and Ebbw Vale Parkway unless you happen to travel on one of the rare occasions that trains on the Ebbw Vale line are running to/from Newport.
I don't agree that there are no permitted routes at all between Cwmbran and Ebbw Vale. My calculation is:

Routeing Points for Ebbw Vale Town are Cardiff Central and Newport S Wales.
Routeing Points for Cwmbran are Hereford and Newport S Wales.
There is no scheduled passenger service between Ebbw Vale Town and Newport S Wales which does not pass through another Routeing Point, Cardiff Central.
Page F3 of The National Routeing Guide in Detail tells us that "Sometimes a station has no scheduled passenger service to one of the routeing points to which it is related. These routeing points should be ignored."
Therefore Newport S Wales is ignored and Cardiff Central is the appropriate Routeing Point for Ebbw Vale Town.
The Fares Check (Any Permitted SDS: CWM-EBB 14.10, HFD-EBB 23.60, NWP-EBB 10.40) shows that Newport S Wales is the appropriate routeing point for Cwmbran.
The mapped Permitted Route Newport S Wales - Cardiff Central is direct on map LW. Therefore the only Permitted Route Cwmbran - Ebbw Vale Town is Cwmbran - Newport S Wales - Cardiff Central - Ebbw Vale Town.
it's very reasonable to argue that on days when there is no service between Newport and the Ebbw Vale line, that the shortest route is via Cardiff, and thus the route is permitted. But the electronic mileage data that ATOC supplies to booking engines and journey planners has no concept of variations in service patterns, so they will all show the route as not permitted.
If the electronic data does not take account of the rule about routes which have no passenger service, then that is an error which should be reported.

But none of this need concern Scouse77. A break of journey at Cardiff Central is permitted with a £14.10 Anytime Day Single Cwmbran - Ebbw Vale Town route Any Permitted ticket.
 
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Paul Kelly

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I don't agree that there are no permitted routes at all between Cwmbran and Ebbw Vale. My calculation is:

Routeing Points for Ebbw Vale Town are Cardiff Central and Newport S Wales.
Routeing Points for Cwmbran are Hereford and Newport S Wales.
There is no scheduled passenger service between Ebbw Vale Town and Newport S Wales which does not pass through another Routeing Point, Cardiff Central.
Page F3 of The National Routeing Guide in Detail tells us that "Sometimes a station has no scheduled passenger service to one of the routeing points to which it is related. These routeing points should be ignored."
Therefore Newport S Wales is ignored and Cardiff Central is the appropriate Routeing Point for Ebbw Vale Town.
Excellent logic there John. I agree with you. However I am interested in these things more from the point of view of how they can be implemented by electronic journey planners, and the obvious question arises then as to what time period is considered for there to be no scheduled services to the routeing point. E.g. should it be a 7-day rolling week centred on the date of travel, considering that parliamentary services generally run once per week?

If you considered the whole current timetable it probably would fail here, as according to the PSUL website there are scheduled to be services between the Ebbw Vale line and Newport from October:
http://www.psul4all.free-online.co.uk/2016.htm said:
Newport: Gaer Junction - Park Junction (127) PB08 {route temporarily restored}
¶ Diversionary use only: Saturdays and Sundays 9/10 January until 2/3 April and from 29/30 October 2016:
Trains between Newport and Ebbw Vale Town
[note: re-opening of this route to regular services is still awaited]
 

Paul Kelly

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Yesterday the Routeing Guide was changed and Newport was removed as an associated routeing point from all stations on the Ebbw Vale line. So Cwmbran to Ebbw Vale Town is now unequivocally permitted via Cardiff Central. (It's still cheaper to split tickets at Cardiff, though!)
 

Starmill

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I didn't know this flow had a Not Via Cardiff! I didn't even know such a route existed to be honest. How interesting. I do wonder what the point of it is... surely it is not there just for times when there is engineering work on? Why make a service more attractive during engineering work? All you will do is cause people to be dissappointed that the price has gone up for the other 360 days of the year.
 

Gareth Marston

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I didn't know this flow had a Not Via Cardiff! I didn't even know such a route existed to be honest. How interesting. I do wonder what the point of it is... surely it is not there just for times when there is engineering work on? Why make a service more attractive during engineering work? All you will do is cause people to be dissappointed that the price has gone up for the other 360 days of the year.

The Welsh Government "promised" a direct service between the Ebbw Valley and Newport but hasn't delivered one. I suspect the fares not via Cardiff were drawn up with good intent when the line reopened in 2007. The scheduled service is to Cardiff as the line goes through the western suburbs of Newport its rather frustrating for anyone trying to access it from the east.

Occasionally the local AM and the South Wales Echo make a fuss and its been "promised" again under the South Wales Metro.
 
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