Cycling laws that need clarifying

[lachlan]

You do (though any entitlement will do, including I *think* provisional, you don't need a motorcycle category). The apps take and verify a photo of it before you can hire one to ride. It's not purely for identity - other ID e.g. passports aren't accepted.

Yes this is odd - there is no such requirement when I hired a scooter in Portugal. It does point to e-scooters being considered a different category to ebikes and normal bikes.

I hope the requirement for a license is not extended to ebikes

 

[Tetchytyke]

If the legislation is brought in to include cycles, what about cyclists without a driving licence?

You can have points or other endorsements added to your driving licence even if you do not actually have a driving licence. DVLA maintain a record of these 'ghost licences'.

How about this for a story highlighting laws around speeding

I'm going to guess that's a result of how the cycling race organisers have/have not arranged the road closures for their event.

They hold motorcycle races on public roads in Aberdare every year, and the speed limit doesn't affect them...

 

[renegademaster]

You can have points or other endorsements added to your driving licence even if you do not actually have a driving licence. DVLA maintain a record of these 'ghost licences'.


I'm going to guess that's a result of how the cycling race organisers have/have not arranged the road closures for their event.

They hold motorcycle races on public roads in Aberdare every year, and the speed limit doesn't affect them...

Unless it's for something major cycle races usually don't have full road closures. A control car might block an intersection for a few minutes but they try to cause the least disruption as possible. Theirs a lot more of them than Motorcycle street races so you'd find it hard to get approval if everyone needed a road closure

 

[OhNoAPacer]

You can have points or other endorsements added to your driving licence even if you do not actually have a driving licence. DVLA maintain a record of these 'ghost licences'.


I'm going to guess that's a result of how the cycling race organisers have/have not arranged the road closures for their event.

They hold motorcycle races on public roads in Aberdare every year, and the speed limit doesn't affect them...

Quite often cycle races take place on non closed roads, or at least they did, there have been instances of the police issuing warnings as the cyclists kept crossing to the other side of the road.

Obviously for major events, Tour if Britain etc, then roads would be closed but I imagine that costs money.

 

[JohnMcL7]

As mentioned above, to hire an e-scooter you need a driving license:

E-scooter trials: guidance for local authorities and rental operators

www.gov.uk

1. E-scooter users need to have a valid driving licence.

Anyone with a full or provisional driving licence can use a trial e-scooter (categories AM, A1, A2, A and B) by permitting those licence holders to ride category Q vehicles.

Users are not required to complete a mandatory training course (such as the compulsory basic training (CBT) course required for motorcycles and mopeds), but we recommend e-scooter providers offer training courses to users.

To achieve this, we have amended the various existing requirements in the Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) Regulations 1999 that currently require users to hold a full category A, AM licence, a full category B licence pre-2001 or later full category B licence plus CBT certificate.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Quite often cycle races take place on non closed roads, or at least they did, there have been instances of the police issuing warnings as the cyclists kept crossing to the other side of the road.

Yeah, a lot of amateur races do take place on open roads.

I would have expected an event such as this one to take place with at least a rolling road closure, but clearly not. So that's on the organisers and not on the 20mph speed limit.

 

[Krokodil]

This is what I was getting at; as far as I know I don’t need a driving licence to ride an e scooter. It doesn’t seem to be consistent that I can lose my driving licence for being over the limit on an e scooter, when others without a driving licence by definition cannot be banned from driving for the same offence.

Escooters are motor vehicles, therefore they need driving licences and, insurance.

Why they don't need registration is a mystery to me though.

 

[JamesT]

Escooters are motor vehicles, therefore they need driving licences and, insurance.

Why they don't need registration is a mystery to me though.

At the moment, the only e-scooters legally allowed on UK roads are those leased through the official trial schemes. So they don't need registration as the rental companies will be handling that.
The trial has been extended several times, but the intention was that it would inform a more general legislative approach to e-scooters. If they end up being classed similarly to e-bikes I would expect the requirements for driving licences etc. to be removed, but if they remain as motor vehicles then you would expect a registration to be required.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes this is odd - there is no such requirement when I hired a scooter in Portugal. It does point to e-scooters being considered a different category to ebikes and normal bikes.

They are in UK law at the moment.

I hope the requirement for a license is not extended to ebikes

For the hire ones you do but that's because it's the same app for both.

 

[andylikestrain]

You can have points or other endorsements added to your driving licence even if you do not actually have a driving licence. DVLA maintain a record of these 'ghost licences'.


I'm going to guess that's a result of how the cycling race organisers have/have not arranged the road closures for their event.

They hold motorcycle races on public roads in Aberdare every year, and the speed limit doesn't affect them...

Thanks for the info. Tetchytyke. Didn’t know that.

You do (though any entitlement will do, including I *think* provisional, you don't need a motorcycle category). The apps take and verify a photo of it before you can hire one to ride. It's not purely for identity - other ID e.g. passports aren't accepted.

Thank you. Every day’s a school day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm going to guess that's a result of how the cycling race organisers have/have not arranged the road closures for their event.

It's usual for cycle races to take place on open roads, largely because unlike motor vehicle racing that isn't illegal. Whether it should be is entirely another debate - in some cases it does cause significant danger - the reckless cycling I saw during a triathlon that went over the Hard Knott Pass really did annoy me. It is impossible to safely use single track mountain passes against the clock in any vehicle, and that should never have taken place without closing the road.

 

[JamesT]

It's usual for cycle races to take place on open roads, largely because unlike motor vehicle racing that isn't illegal. Whether it should be is entirely another debate - in some cases it does cause significant danger - the reckless cycling I saw during a triathlon that went over the Hard Knott Pass really did annoy me. It is impossible to safely use single track mountain passes against the clock in any vehicle, and that should never have taken place without closing the road.

I suspect the main issue with road closures is cost. Especially when you're crossing multiple counties I believe it can get into the thousands.

 

[Krokodil]

So they don't need registration as the rental companies will be handling that.

But unlike any other motor vehicle, you can't identify one when it (inevitably) goes charging the wrong way down a one-way street and jumps onto the pavement. People moan about cyclists, but it's a minority who give the rest a bad name. I haven't seen many law-abiding e-scooter riders (let's face it, there are quite a few privately-owned ones being ridden about).

 

[Egg Centric]

But unlike any other motor vehicle, you can't identify one when it (inevitably) goes charging the wrong way down a one-way street and jumps onto the pavement. People moan about cyclists, but it's a minority who give the rest a bad name. I haven't seen many law-abiding e-scooter riders (let's face it, there are quite a few privately-owned ones being ridden about).

The trial ones are continually monitored by GPS so you could. The privately owned ones could be stopped now if the police cared!

 

[renegademaster]

. I haven't seen many law-abiding e-scooter riders (let's face it, there are quite a few privately-owned ones being ridden about).

How can you be sure that this isn't confirmation bias?

 

[Bletchleyite]

How can you be sure that this isn't confirmation bias?

If you see someone riding a private escooter in a public place they are breaking the law. Pretty easy to see that.

 

[renegademaster]

If you see someone riding a private escooter in a public place they are breaking the law. Pretty easy to see that.

I can't see anything inherent escooters that make them inherently less safe to people other than the rider than bicycles. Perhaps, the reputation of escooters riders as more reckless (if true) is because its illegality pushes more sensible people away from using them.
Then again bicycles, despite being considerably safer than horses , few councils tried to ban them. People tend to have a habit of applying much higher standards to new things than existing stuff

 

[Krokodil]

The privately owned ones could be stopped now if the police cared!

I dunno, with mopeds they had to resort to ramming them.

How can you be sure that this isn't confirmation bias?

Well every single one of the ones I see locally is illegally-ridden by default as I am not in a trial area. That's apart from the actual question of driving standards and whether the two fourteen year olds riding a single scooter have got a licence and insurance. But you could say that isn't a representative sample as those who are prepared to ignore one set of laws probably don't have much respect for the others either.

In the places where the things are legal (so in my experience Chester, Liverpool, London and Paris) I've seen a lot of poor riding (though in the case of London and Paris that's the case for all road users). These things can do 15mph with little input from the rider so they are more dangerous than pedal cycles (and I'm not going to claim that behaviour is perfect there).

People tend to have a habit of applying much higher standards to new things than existing stuff

On a railway forum we are familiar with the concept of grandfather rights.

 

[renegademaster]

These things can do 15mph with little input from the rider so they are more dangerous than pedal cycles

How does not having to pedal make something less safe.


That every motorised vehicle needs a licence is not some unquestionably justified law. Lot of Europe let's people go round with petrol mopeds licence free under a certain speed. Netherlands even seems to let them in bike lanes

 

[JamesT]

How does not having to pedal make something less safe.

Having to exert yourself to go faster gives a better appreciation of your speed. It also takes longer to build up speed, rather than something where you just twist the throttle and it accelerates rapidly.

 

[Bikeman78]

Stopping quickly and being hit by a car from behind is what I'd be thinking about.

I nearly got rear ended by a bus. I stopped at the light that had just turned red. He clearly wasn't planning to stop. Then he had the cheek to shout at me.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Having to exert yourself to go faster gives a better appreciation of your speed. It also takes longer to build up speed, rather than something where you just twist the throttle and it accelerates rapidly.

Neither of these things is really true of a Lime e-bike.

It's just a quirk of the law which was made before these vehicles were a thing, that's all. Logic says that e-bikes and e-scooters should be legally the same due to the low top speed.

 

[En]

One could certainly think so. One of the major disadvantages of a move away from on the ground beat policing.

the ineffective , not cost effective and impairing the wider service unless specifically resourced to meet a need ' on the ground beat policing ' you mean ?

The effectiveness of visible police patrol | College of Policing

Officers patrolling places or passing through an area, regardless of the crime rate in that area, has no effect on crime reduction.

www.college.police.uk

Neither of these things is really true of a Lime e-bike.

It's just a quirk of the law which was made before these vehicles were a thing, that's all. Logic says that e-bikes and e-scooters should be legally the same due to the low top speed.

an 'E-bike' is either
1. an electrically assisted Pedal Cycle which has a specific categroy in regualtiosn and is treated as a pedal cycle

or
2. un registered , uninsured , un taxed, Moped ridden by an unlicenced driver without the correct legally required PPE

at present E -scooters fall into that second category

 

[Bletchleyite]

the ineffective , not cost effective and impairing the wider service unless specifically resourced to meet a need ' on the ground beat policing ' you mean ?

The effectiveness of visible police patrol | College of Policing

Officers patrolling places or passing through an area, regardless of the crime rate in that area, has no effect on crime reduction.

www.college.police.uk

The Police's own research institute backing up what they have decided to do? Quelle surprise.

It's simple intuition that if there are more officers around there will be less crime, as for most the deterrent is getting caught.

 

[En]

The Police's own research institute backing up what they have decided to do? Quelle surprise.

It's simple intuition that if there are more officers around there will be less crime, as for most the deterrent is getting caught.

Quite clear you have failed to read that article or it's many references to peer reviewed Journal Articles.

 

[lachlan]

the ineffective , not cost effective and impairing the wider service unless specifically resourced to meet a need ' on the ground beat policing ' you mean ?

The effectiveness of visible police patrol | College of Policing

Officers patrolling places or passing through an area, regardless of the crime rate in that area, has no effect on crime reduction.

www.college.police.uk

an 'E-bike' is either
1. an electrically assisted Pedal Cycle which has a specific categroy in regualtiosn and is treated as a pedal cycle

or
2. un registered , uninsured , un taxed, Moped ridden by an unlicenced driver without the correct legally required PPE

at present E -scooters fall into that second category

E scooters, at least the ones available to hire, are limited in their speed much like ebikes.

 

[E27007]

You can have points or other endorsements added to your driving licence even if you do not actually have a driving licence. DVLA maintain a record of these 'ghost licences'.

Also if you are convicted of riding a bicycle on a public road while under the influence of drink or drugs, I believe it should be declared as a material fact when applying for or renewing motor vehicle insurance

 

[Krokodil]

the ineffective , not cost effective and impairing the wider service unless specifically resourced to meet a need ' on the ground beat policing ' you mean ?

Because turning up long after a crime has happened (if they turn up at all) has proven to be such an effective way of preventing crime...

 

[Bikeman78]

Pedestrians are, per head, far less likely than cyclists to be hit by cars, because they do not share the same space as often.

Walking is statistically less safe than cycling.

Cars are far more brightly lit at night, large and noisy. Bicycles aren't. The objective risks differ.

The main thing is to have decent lights. Flashing lights are the best.

 

[renegademaster]

I remember when boris bikes came out, the reaction from snobby lycra types was basically the same as what escooters get now, in that the riders of them are reckless and don't know what they are doing. But in the bigger picture having more slow moving vehicles in the road makes the road safer even if they inexperienced and generally oblivious to everything , just look at the dutch

E scooters, at least the ones available to hire, are limited in their speed much like ebikes.

Unless they are ones with bigger wheels, the speed is limited by the fact the ride is really quite horrible once you go over 5mph , you feel every crack in the road with 8 inch solid wheels