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Daft fares

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yorkie

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The most expensive ticket in the country is not Penzance to Wick, but Gunnislake to Wick.

The FOR routed "Any Permitted" was £416 under Virgin XC in 2006, but is now a whopping £952! Despite the lack of cross-London marker it is valid via London as it is more expensive than the "+London" ticket at £730.

There are many other oddities, these are just some I found looking up fares for a cycle ride in the Peak district....

Everyone knows about splitting, but it's sometimes cheaper to buy beyond your destination or origin.

Sheffield-Tutbury & Hatton SVR is £22.00
New Mills Central-Tutbury & Hatton SVR is only £17.90!

Before you ask, yes the NMC-TUT ticket is valid via Sheffield & Derby as that's the shortest route. It's also valid via Crewe.

The next stop, Chinley, has a higher fare at £20.80 routed "Derby", but this is still cheaper than buying from Sheffield! So it costs more than from New Mills despite being more restrictive!

From Dore the price increases to £22.00, the same as from Sheffield.

York to Derby is £31.40 SVR but as this is set by EMT it is not valid until 0900. Before 0900 they will sell you a SOR at a ludicrous £56.50. So you simply buy a SVR to Tutbury & Hatton at £44.10 which is valid by any train (expect to have to tell the guard to look it up though!) Splitting at Sheffield is even cheaper.

The Wayfarer is an excellent ticket, a ticket from Sheffield to Matlock is a daft £17.50 CDR but with a Wayfarer this is only £8.60 and you can do so much more with it!


And here's more...

York to Mexborough SOR is £18.20, this is of course valid via Doncaster.

National Express charge £18.70 for a York to Doncaster SVR! (Valid at all times except from 01:15 to 04:00 so effectively an Anytime given that there is no service between those hours).

So it can be cheaper to pay to go further!
 
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I had a Liverpool-Penzance FOR Any Permitted ticket about 3 years back, at it cost £284.00.

The same journey today, would cost a staggering £539.00!

How, under fares regulation, has a fare managed to increase by 100% ? At the VERY most, fare increases have been 15% each year.

Based on a fare from 3 years ago, the fare today, SHOULD be: £431.75.

The Gunnislake-Wick fare is a joke to,

Gunnislake-Inverness is £883, but Gunnislake-Wick is £952. Charging £70 for a standard class train between Inverness + Wick is an absolute joke. It's only £20/£28 return at most! Nobody would actually buy this ticket though, they'd get the +ANY PERMITTED one.

Imagine a guard's face if someone asked him for a £952 ticket!! £50 commission for just one ticket! Wouldn't like to paid in cash for that one though...
 

MCR247

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Southern:

Off Peak Day Single Southampton - Brighton £16.50
DaySave £10!

Off Peak Day single Southampton - Ashford Int £43.20
DaySave £10!
 

Thewanderer

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Even Ireland doesn't escape.

One journey that comes to mind is.

Dublin Heuston - Kildare:
5 Day Return: €22.00 (cheapest ticket in this direction).

Dublin Heuston - Athy:
Day Saver Return (Not vaild Fri and Sun): €14.90

If you were to travel on a Friday or Sunday you can purchase a Monthly Saver return for €18.00

Athy is 14 miles further from Dublin than Kildare. The fare anomaly is due to IE having two fare structures from its IC routes. Express scale for its premier routes such as Cork, Tralee and Limerick and Economy Scale for its secondary routes such as Waterford, Galway, Westport, Sligo, Rosslare etc.

For the record a Kildare - Dublin Heuston Day Saver is €18.00 valid on all Trains and every day.
The Wanderer.
 

krus_aragon

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You'll find a few of these in Arriva's neck of the woods too.

AW offer advance tickets for travel between North and South Wales. Advance Singles from the North Wales Coast Line to Cardiff start at £15. From Chester/Wrexham/Ruabon to Cardiff they're £10. One station further south, at Chirk, the cheapest fare is an Anytime Single for £37.50. This is despite Chirk being on the Welsh side of the Border. So that's a saving of £27 if you go five miles north!

Also, an Anytime Single between Cardiff and Shrewsbury costs £31.50, whereas a Heart of Wales Circular Day Ranger (Cardiff-Swansea-Shrewsbury-Cardiff or the inverse) is only £26.50.
 

paul1609

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Southern:

Off Peak Day Single Southampton - Brighton £16.50
DaySave £10!

Off Peak Day single Southampton - Ashford Int £43.20
DaySave £10!

The £43.20 Southampton to Ashford fare is Route "London Not Underground" and is set by SWT (I think). An Off Peak Day Single Route "Barnham" is £16.50 (Southerns Fare). The Anytime single is only £20.40 by this route.

As Southampton to Ashford by rail is around 135 miles they are pretty good value I think. Its about the same as Nottingham to Middlesbrough probably not the suburban journey you imagine it is!

The Daysave has to be booked 7 days in advance as others have pointed out.
There is also the Southcoast Downlander which is an E ticket bookable up to 2 days in advance which would be valid for both those journeys http://www.southernrailway.com/main.php?page_id=281
 

yorkie

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Good point. I ignored the ticket as it wasn't a fair comparison given that Daysave isn't available on the day, but the Southampton to Ashford "London Not Und" fare is clearly intended for people who wish to use SWT to Waterloo, and then use SET from there, obviously on fast services. Daysave is not valid for this route.

As you say, the Southern route is priced at £16.50 for a CDS (£16.60 CDR) so the premium of buying on the day is only £6.50.

The sort of anomalies I was highlighting are where, on the day, you can ask for a ticket beyond your origin and/or destination and it is cheaper.

Here's another...

Doncaster to Ashton Under Lyne is £14.00 CDR (valid for departing at or after 0930) or £16.90 SVR (valid on trains arriving into Manchester at or after 0930)

However...

Doncaster to Manchester is more expensive than this, at £16.30 CDR or £18.10 SVR!

The Donny to Ashton ticket is valid either via Huddersfield or via Manchester.

Doncaster to Huddersfield is £19.30 SVR (Valid for departing at or after 0400).

So, if you want to go to Huddersfield or to Manchester, simply buy a ticket to Ashton and cut your journey short!
 

csilke

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The most expensive ticket in the country is not Penzance to Wick, but Gunnislake to Wick.

The FOR routed "Any Permitted" was £416 under Virgin XC in 2006, but is now a whopping £952!
Hmm, Newquay - Kyle of Lochalsh FOR = £1,002!
 

yorkie

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Hmm, Newquay - Kyle of Lochalsh FOR = £1,002!
You're right! Words fail me!

I can't believe anyone at XC thinks that people will actually pay that price, when it's £251 cheaper to be limited to going via London, or £12 cheaper to get an All Line Rover for 14 days.
 

John @ home

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Everyone knows about splitting, but it's sometimes cheaper to buy beyond your destination or origin.

And sometimes it's cheaper to split, but cheaper still to buy overlapping tickets and have two valid tickets for part of the journey.

Example:
Leeds - Bangor (Gwynnedd) Off-Peak Return (SVR) £60.60

It's cheaper to split at Frodsham:
A: Leeds - Frodsham SVR £21.10
B: Frodsham - Bangor (Gwynnedd) SVR £27.80
Total £48.90, saving £11.70

It's even cheaper to split at Newton-le-Willows:
C: Leeds - Newton-le-Willows SVR £23.10 (route not Preston/Liverpool)
D: Newton-le-Willows - Bangor (Gwynnedd) SVR £25.60
Total £48.70, saving £11.90

But instead of buying A+B, or even C+D, it's cheaper still to buy A+D:
A: Leeds - Frodsham SVR £21.10
D: Newton-le-Willows - Bangor (Gwynnedd) SVR £25.60
Total £46.70, saving £13.90

This gives the passenger two valid tickets for the part of the journey between Newton-le-Willows and Frodsham!

John
 

OwlMan

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There is always the old favourite Lancaster - Crewe fares
SOR - £53-00
SVR - £33-00

As Lancaster to Manchester via Crewe is valid try instead Lancaster - Manchester fares
SOR - £21-40
SVR - 16-30

Also Hinckley to Nuneaton
SDR 5-10

However Hinckley to Bedworth (next station)
SDR £4-40

Peter
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
another silly ticket is a first class ticket from Coventry - Bedworth (The service is a dogbox)
FDR 8-40
FDS 4-20
SDR 3-40
SDS 2-90
Why have a first class fare when no first class trains are available?

Peter
 

glynn80

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Hmm, Newquay - Kyle of Lochalsh FOR = £1,002!

This fare is absolutely ridiculous.

Here is the fare's history listed in previous NFMs:

NFM 99 (18th May 2008 till 6th September 2008)
Any Permitted FOR- £486.00
London+ FOR= £691.00

NFM 01 (7th September 2008 till 1st January 2009)
Any Permitted FOR- £822.00 (69.1% Increase)
London+ FOR= £691.00 (No Change)

NFM 02 (2nd January 2009 till 16th May 2009)
Any Permitted FOR- £912.50 (11.0% Increase)
London+ FOR= £749.00 (8.4% Increase)

NFM 03 (17th May 2009 till 5th September 2009)
Any Permitted FOR- £1002.00 (9.8% Increase)
London+ FOR= £749.00 (No Change)


Obviously the problem occurred from fare increase period between NFM 99 to NFM 01, where there was a massive £336.00 increase in the Any Permitted fare. This then led to the Any Permitted fare to overtake the +London fare in price and therefore leading to the Any Permitted fare to thus be valid via London.
 

First class

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Isn't the FOR a regulated fare?

In which case, it can only rise/fall by inflation and a small percentage, CERTAINLY NOT 70%! Could this be a mistake?

I wonder if AXC actually know about some of these fares, because they don't specifically set each one, and I doubt any conductor has ever been asked to sell one, (I'd keep quiet though, £50 commission!). Maybe an email to them or DfT/ATOC asking why a 70% rise was authorised is required.
 

glynn80

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Isn't the FOR a regulated fare?

In which case, it can only rise/fall by inflation and a small percentage, CERTAINLY NOT 70%! Could this be a mistake?

I wonder if AXC actually know about some of these fares, because they don't specifically set each one, and I doubt any conductor has ever been asked to sell one, (I'd keep quiet though, £50 commission!). Maybe an email to them or DfT/ATOC asking why a 70% rise was authorised is required.

Just to clarify there are two types of fares regulation, commuter fares regulation and protected fares regulation.

Commuter Fares regulation covers:

  • Standard Day Singles and Standard Day Returns for any journey wholly within the London Travelcard zones;
  • Standard Day Singles and Standard Day Returns from any station in the London suburban area (roughly 35-50 miles around London) to any station within the London Travelcard zones;
  • Weekly, monthly, quarterly and annual season tickets (including Travelcard seasons) for journeys wholly within the London Travelcard zones;
  • Weekly, monthly, quarterly and annual season tickets (including Travelcard seasons) between any station outside the zones and any station within the zones.
  • Standard Day Singles, Standard Day Returns and season tickets for journeys wholly within the suburban area around Cardiff, Edinburgh, Leeds, and Manchester.

Protected Fares regulation covers:
  • Weekly season tickets for journeys where a weekly season existed in February 2003, unless already covered by Commuter Fares regulation;
  • All Saver tickets for journeys where a Saver ticket existed in February 2003;
  • An unrestricted standard class return, for each journey where no Saver fare existed in February 2003 (typically journeys under 50 miles, or journeys within the old Network SouthEast area) unless already covered by Commuter Fares regulation.

As can be seen from the list above, no first class fares are regulated whatsoever. All first class fares are unregulated fares.

Also with regard to FOR fares, very few "Open Fares", in general, are regulated either. The only cases where an "Open Fare" would be regulated, would either be a flow where no Saver fare existed in February 2003 (and the flow did not contain a SDR) or where a Saver fare was changed to an open ticket type (such as Northern did with nearly all their Savers after simplification).

Due to their unregulated status, the DfT would have no authority to dictate to Cross Country on the pricing policy of FOR fares in question and Cross Country are thus able to set these fares at whichever market rate they see fit.
 
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yorkie

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Due to their unregulated status, the DfT would have no authority to dictate to Cross Country on the pricing policy of FOR fares in question and Cross Country are thus able to set these fares at whichever market rate they see fit.
But if they think that's the market rate then they are utterly mad!:lol:
 

John @ home

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Could this be a mistake?

I wonder if AXC actually know about some of these fares

It seems that XC changed the multiplier for the XC element of the fares they set with effect from September 2008. Their fares seem to have increased from approx FOR = 1.5 x SOR to approx FOR = 2.0 x SOR.

I share yorkie's belief that this pricing policy is nowhere near the market rate, but the increase was featured in some railway magazines at the time and there does not seem to be any possibility that it is an accidental error.

UPDATE It's worse than I thought! I cannot find any XC fares in their core area between York / Manchester / Bristol / Reading where the FOR is less than 2.2 x SOR, and for both Leeds - Birmingham and Manchester - Birmingham FOR = 2.33 x SOR.

Given the minimal service I received in First Class on an XC HST between Derby and Leeds earlier this month, I can say with confidence that even the most affluent business traveller just won't pay these prices. The only good thing I can say about this company is that they were very prompt at refunding my whole £19.50 First Advance fare for this peak weekday evening journey delayed by more than an hour by a power car fault. Perhaps XC should ask themselves why they needed to have £19.50 First Class fares still available just a few days before travel.

Note Derby - Leeds FOR set by EMT is £104. Birmingham - Sheffield, much the same distance, set by XC is £140!

John
 
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glynn80

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It seems that XC changed the multiplier for the XC element of the fares they set with effect from September 2008. Their fares seem to have increased from approx FOR = 1.5 x SOR to approx FOR = 2.0 x SOR.

This does make a little bit more sense.

If we just look at the history of the Any Permitted flow of Newquay to Kyle of Lochalsh (the flow set by XC).

NFM 99 (18th May 2008 till 6th September 2008)
Any Permitted SOR= £411.00
Any Permitted FOR- £486.00 (1.18 x SOR)

NFM 01 (7th September 2008 till 1st January 2009)
Any Permitted SOR= £411.00
Any Permitted FOR- £822.00 (2 x SOR)

NFM 02 (2nd January 2009 till 16th May 2009)
Any Permitted SOR= £456.00
Any Permitted FOR- £912.50 (2 x SOR)

NFM 03 (17th May 2009 till 5th September 2009)
Any Permitted SOR= £456.00
Any Permitted FOR- £1002.00 (2.20 x SOR)


So when the move from NFM 99 to NFM 01 occurred and the policy to move to 2 x SOR fare was implemented, they left the SOR fare at £411.00 and then doubled it to produce the FOR fare. This seems to now be the source of the fares anomalies.
 

John @ home

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The most expensive ticket in the country is not Penzance to Wick, but Gunnislake to Wick.

The FOR routed "Any Permitted" was £416 under Virgin XC in 2006, but is now a whopping £952!

Hmm, Newquay - Kyle of Lochalsh FOR = £1,002!

This fare is absolutely ridiculous.

This week purchasers of the NFM 03 CD received an unsolicited updated copy in the post marked This is version 2 of the AVT CD which includes an amendment to the data.

FOR Gunnislake - Wick remains £952 but FOR Gunnislake - Kyle of Lochalsh has fallen from £1,002 to £964. It may well still be the most expensive ticket in the country, but we will have to wait a few weeks longer for the first GB rail fare over £1,000!

There is not just an amendment. The not before 0930 restrictions on SVRs on very long XC journeys which were introduced in May appear to have been reversed. Barry Doe reported in a recent Rail that XC had changed their mind on these.

John
 

csilke

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FOR Gunnislake - Wick remains £952 but FOR Gunnislake - Kyle of Lochalsh has fallen from £1,002 to £964. It may well still be the most expensive ticket in the country, but we will have to wait a few weeks longer for the first GB rail fare over £1,000!
It's Newquay to Kyle that's £1,002 not Gunnislake.
 

Bill Badger

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Guildford to Haslemere ODS £5.30 ODR £5.40
Guidford to Liphook ODS £5.10 £5.20 (Liphook is the station after Haslemere and all trains stop at Haslemere, so no one should ever bother with the Haslemere ticket!)

Interestingly it doesn't work for the ADS/R
 

yorkie

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Southampton-Wigan Route "Not London" SOR £160.00 but to Preston, also "Not London" it's £157.00!
 

tony_mac

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The off-peak return from Earlestown and related stations to Chirk / Gobowen is a bit of an oddity - set by Merseyrail and cheaper than shorter journeys at either end (including Frodsham to Wrexham, which is half the distance)

Thornaby to Whitby at £13.50 for a CDR, and about £11 from York - which is over twice the distance and goes through Thornaby. Although going via Darlington is about £25 - that's an expensive piece of track!
 

krus_aragon

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And here's another I found. Say I want a day return ticket...

Nottingham - Flint off-peak return: £33.60 valid after 0900 (no off peak day return available)
Nottingham - Rhyl off-peak day return: £22.20 valid after 0715

Rhyl is twenty miles further along the coast than Flint.


Edit:

Also purchasing (for example) Colwyn Bay-Nottingham off-peak day return £25.10 (valid via Manchester per Routeing Guide, after 0715), whereas Colwyn Bay-Manchester only offers an off-peak return for £30.50. A 17% discount for buying a ticket to go twice as far!
 
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yorkie

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Thornaby to Whitby at £13.50 for a CDR, and about £11 from York - which is over twice the distance and goes through Thornaby. Although going via Darlington is about £25 - that's an expensive piece of track!
Indeed.

Thirsk-Whitby £19.40 CDR / £27.10 SVR
Northallerton-Whitby £21.10 SVR (No CDR!!!)

So York is cheaper than the lot, but the fare from Northallerton for a day trip is more expensive than from Thirsk as no day fare exists from NTR!

Micklefield-Church Fenton £4.40 SDR (no CDR)
Church Fenton-Pontefract £5.70 SDR (no CDR)
Micklefield-Pontefract (VIA CHURCH FENTON!) £3.20 CDR / £5.55 SDR!!
 

robert2000

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chester to shrewsbury is quite cheap, but a big increase if u travel to the next stop, i.e church stretton, welshpool and wellington.

can we split tickets to those places from chester cheaper.
 

krus_aragon

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chester to shrewsbury is quite cheap, but a big increase if u travel to the next stop, i.e church stretton, welshpool and wellington.

can we split tickets to those places from chester cheaper.

Yes, with a ticket from Chester to Shrewsbury and then Shrewsbury to wherever. Obviously it's only worth doing so if the two sets of tickets are cheaper than a through ticket.

This thread is for odd prices like where it's cheaper to travel further than you want to, or the price of a ticket is hundreds of pounds for no apparent reason. If you've got specific questions about split ticketing or routeing, feel free to start a new topic.
 
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