Dalmuir to York Advance Gateline Query

[Roast Veg]

I have purchased two Advance tickets from Dalmuir to York dated 5th March 2022 with a 16-25 railcard, at a very reasonable £17.25 each, restriction code GC. My published itinerary has me take the 11:21 service to Haymarket - wait for 4h29m at Haymarket - and then board the 17:21 LNER service. I notice that BRFares describe this ticket as having validity "BOOKDTRAINONLY (1 day) Break of journey is not permitted". Does this mean that if I choose to travel all the way to Edinburgh and leave the gateline there, I will not be permitted reentry there to join my service from there instead?

I suppose I could buy an Edinburgh to Haymarket single to get me back through the barriers at Edinburgh - to which staff on the LNER service would be none the wiser - but this feels very disingenuous. Is it possible that I won't have any issue?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Officially you can't travel to Waverley instead, no. However, it is very unlikely anyone will care if you do.

The full condition tends to state that you may not break your journey except as needed to change trains or use station services. So you could pass a gateline, but technically not leave the station. However, again, nobody is checking this sort of thing.

 

[Haywain]

My published itinerary has me take the 11:21 service to Haymarket - wait for 4h29m at Haymarket - and then board the 17:21 LNER service.

Would it be correct to believe that you requested such a long wait at Haymarket?

 

[Roast Veg]

Would it be correct to believe that you requested such a long wait at Haymarket?

No, rather I obtained the ticket as part of a longer itinerary provided by a split ticketing website. I am starting back from Mallaig.

 

[sonic2009]

No, rather I obtained the ticket as part of a longer itinerary provided by a split ticketing website. I am starting back from Mallaig.

Which site has advised this?

 

[island]

Your ticket does not allow you to leave the station during your journey, you will be committing an offence if you do.

How likely this is to be detected I will leave as an exercise for the reader.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Your ticket does not allow you to leave the station during your journey, you will be committing an offence if you do.

How likely this is to be detected I will leave as an exercise for the reader.

Not an offence per-se; the NRCoT provides for the action in this case, which is an excess to the cheapest walk-up fare that allows the break of journey.

However, I have only once, in my entire life, heard of gateline staff trying to enforce this, and it wasn't at Waverley. Not least because the arrival gateline is very likely to be different from the departing one as there isn't a single gateline, and at stations without a single gateline people are generally expected to await connections on the main concourse.

 

[island]

Not an offence per-se; the NRCoT provides for the action in this case, which is an excess to the cheapest walk-up fare that allows the break of journey.

If someone broke and resumed a journey when they know their ticket does not permit it, and did not seek to pay the excess fare, it would be an offence under s5 of the Regulation of Railways Act of avoiding payment of the correct fare for their journey.

 

[Roast Veg]

Which site has advised this?

Trainsplit, complete with booking reference and itinerary guidance.

The NRCoT provides for the action in this case, which is an excess to the cheapest walk-up fare that allows the break of journey.

Which would be what, in this case? An off peak single at £73.75 per person, plus fee? Since the original is non refundable, would the value of the advance even be subtracted?

However, I have only once, in my entire life, heard of gateline staff trying to enforce this, and it wasn't at Waverley. Not least because the arrival gateline is very likely to be different from the departing one as there isn't a single gateline, and at stations without a single gateline people are generally expected to await connections on the main concourse.

I can't find a gateline map for Waverly, but the booked platforms for the relevant services are 13 and 19. If I am to reach Waverly with over 4 hours to spare, I am likely to need to use the facilities located on the wrong side of the gateline. This presupposes, however, that travel to Waverly on the existing ticket is acceptable. I would have thought that "the man on the street" would typically head for the most major interchange, not concerning themselves with whether their connection started back from Aberdeen or not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can't find a gateline map for Waverly, but the booked platforms for the relevant services are 13 and 19. If I am to reach Waverly with over 4 hours to spare, I am likely to need to use the facilities located on the wrong side of the gateline. This presupposes, however, that travel to Waverly on the existing ticket is acceptable. I would have thought that "the man on the street" would typically head for the most major interchange, not concerning themselves with whether their connection started back from Aberdeen or not.

Technically it isn't, both because the ticket shows changing at Haymarket and not Edinburgh and because it's a double-back, but there is a local arrangement in place that the two stations are essentially treated as one (both ways round), and so nobody will question it.

If someone broke and resumed a journey when they know their ticket does not permit it, and did not seek to pay the excess fare, it would be an offence under s5 of the Regulation of Railways Act of avoiding payment of the correct fare for their journey.

It would, however prosecuting it would require someone to catch them in the act, and that person would then be bound to sell the excess as per the NRCoT or provide for its sale. So unless it was detected by trawling e-ticket data (which it can't be at Waverley as there is no gateline at the station exits, and Break of Journey is permissible to use station facilities whether inside or outside a gateline), your scenario cannot arise.

 

[Roast Veg]

Technically it isn't, both because the ticket shows changing at Haymarket and not Edinburgh and because it's a double-back, but there is a local arrangement in place that the two stations are essentially treated as one (both ways round), and so nobody will question it.

Given that this is a "Ticket on Departure", should I thus expect to be presented with two paper tickets broken at Haymarket? There's no other way to present such information to the consumer is there?

 

[Cheshire Scot]

I can't find a gateline map for Waverly, but the booked platforms for the relevant services are 13 and 19. If I am to reach Waverly with over 4 hours to spare, I am likely to need to use the facilities located on the wrong side of the gateline. This presupposes, however, that travel to Waverly on the existing ticket is acceptable. I would have thought that "the man on the street" would typically head for the most major interchange, not concerning themselves with whether their connection started back from Aberdeen or not.

Equally there would be valid reason to exit via the gateline at Haymarket to use e.g. the M&S on the concourse. Then buy a return ticket to Waverley (£2.90 off peak, £3.90 anytime) and later back track to Haymarket to pick up the booked train at the booked station.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given that this is a "Ticket on Departure", should I thus expect to be presented with two paper tickets broken at Haymarket? There's no other way to present such information to the consumer is there?

What you'll probably get is two coupons per person, one as the ticket and one as a list of reservations, which with an Advance you are required to follow.

 

[Roast Veg]

Equally there would be valid reason to exit via the gateline at Haymarket to use e.g. the M&S on the concourse. Then buy a return ticket to Waverley (£2.90 off peak, £3.90 anytime) and later back track to Haymarket to pick up the booked train at the booked station.

The date in question is a Saturday, so for the pair of us on 16-25 railcards I make that £5.10 all told - or £6.80 on the tram, which is also tempting.

What you'll probably get is two coupons per person, one as the ticket and one as a list of reservations, which with an Advance you are required to follow.

I did not know reservations were enforcable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I did not know reservations were enforcable.

They are on Advance tickets as part of the T&C. That is the whole basis of Advance tickets - you get it cheaper because your journey is precisely fixed.

 

[Roast Veg]

They are on Advance tickets as part of the T&C. That is the whole basis of Advance tickets - you get it cheaper because your journey is precisely fixed.

Granted in hindsight, but I had it in my head that the booked train for an advance ticket and a seat reservation were distinct.

 

[D1537]

The date in question is a Saturday, so for the pair of us on 16-25 railcards I make that £5.10 all told - or £6.80 on the tram, which is also tempting.

To be honest this is what I'd do - exit at Haymarket and use the tram. If it's a nice day it's not exactly a long walk either.

 

[Roast Veg]

To be honest this is what I'd do - exit at Haymarket and use the tram. If it's a nice day it's not exactly a long walk either.

As might be suggested by our starting back at Mallaig, we will be encumbered a little by luggage.

 

[sonic2009]

Trainsplit, complete with booking reference and itinerary guidance.

Are you able to provide a screenshot of your itinerary please?

I'm just not sure how you have managed to get a 4h 29 minute wait at Haymarket, because even specifying from Dalmuir to route via High Street Glasgow and change at Haymarket, the advance tickets given for £17.25 specify this :

​

​

Your Tickets​

	Price	Description
Dalmuir to York Advance Single (BPT) (16-25 Railcard)	£17.25	Only valid on booked London North Eastern Railway services and required connecting services. Restriction GC applies - cl

No, rather I obtained the ticket as part of a longer itinerary provided by a split ticketing website. I am starting back from Mallaig.

Are you taking the 0603 service from Malliag?

 

[island]

It would, however prosecuting it would require someone to catch them in the act, and that person would then be bound to sell the excess as per the NRCoT or provide for its sale. So unless it was detected by trawling e-ticket data (which it can't be at Waverley as there is no gateline at the station exits, and Break of Journey is permissible to use station facilities whether inside or outside a gateline), your scenario cannot arise.

As I alluded to when first raising the point

How likely this is to be detected I will leave as an exercise for the reader.

 

[Roast Veg]

Are you able to provide a screenshot of your itinerary please?

Are you taking the 0603 service from Malliag?

Yes, and yes.

Mallaig to Wakefield Westgate on Saturday, March 5, 2022. 2 adults. 2 x 16-25 Railcards.

Your journey starts from Mallaig at 06:03, but please arrive in plenty of time.
Mallaig station has these opening times and facilities.
You must bring your 2 x 16-25 Railcards with you. Failure to do so will mean your tickets are invalid.

Board the 06:03 ScotRail service to Glasgow Queen Street. details
Ticket used: Mallaig to Dalmuir . We weren't able to reserve any seats. You may be able to request reservations directly from ScotRail via their Website or social media.
You'll arrive at Dalmuir at 11:08. Leave the train here.
You have a 13 minute wait here. facilities.

Board the 11:21 ScotRail service to Edinburgh. details
Ticket used: Dalmuir to York . Seats can't be reserved on this service.
You'll arrive at Haymarket at 12:52. Leave the train here.
You have a 4 hour, 29 minute wait here. facilities.

Board the 17:21 London North Eastern Railway service to Doncaster. details
Ticket used: Dalmuir to York . You have reserved seats in coach J: 42B (Window ,Airline).41B (Aisle ,Airline).
You'll arrive at York at 19:59, but stay on board, you're just splitting tickets here.
Ticket used: York to Doncaster . You have reserved seats in coach J: 42B (Window ,Airline).41B (Aisle ,Airline). Stay in the same seats.
You'll arrive at Doncaster at 21:10. Leave the train here.
You have a 18 minute wait here. facilities.

Board the 21:28 Northern service to Leeds. details
Ticket used: Doncaster to Wakefield Westgate . We weren't able to reserve any seats. You may be able to request reservations directly from Northern via their Website or social media.
You'll arrive at Wakefield Westgate at 21:55. Leave the train here.


Your journey ends at Wakefield Westgate station. facilities.

 

[Haywain]

Yes, and yes.

When you booked, were you expressly warned of the long wait between trains at Haymarket? If you were not, that would seem rather poor on the part of Trainsplit. I'm also inclined to ask why Trainsplit are adding direction indicators to seat numbers on LNER - something that hasn't been used for many years. Perhaps @SickyNicky might be able to comment.

 

[SickyNicky]

When you booked, were you expressly warned of the long wait between trains at Haymarket? If you were not, that would seem rather poor on the part of Trainsplit. I'm also inclined to ask why Trainsplit are adding direction indicators to seat numbers on LNER - something that hasn't been used for many years. Perhaps @SickyNicky might be able to comment.

I'm not involved in TrainSplit any more. @js517 is the person to ask.

 

[Hadders]

I've known Advance tickets to/from Haymarket to the north of Scotland to be cheaper than from Edinburgh which might explain why Haymarket is the splitting point.

 

[js517]

I'm not involved in TrainSplit any more. @js517 is the person to ask.

@Raileasy is the only forum rep.

 

[yorkie]

Officially speaking you can only change at the station specified on the itinerary; in practice you should be ok to change at Waverley.

Next time, check you are happy with the itinerary before booking; you can specify change points or even avoid change points using the advanced options on Trainsplit. So you can get the exact itinerary you want.

 

[Roast Veg]

The date in question is a Saturday, so for the pair of us on 16-25 railcards I make that £5.10 all told - or £6.80 on the tram, which is also tempting.
I did not know reservations were enforcable.

With the closure of York Place, the tram is no longer a sensible option. I will have to buy a pair of Haymarket to Waverly returns.