Dangerous Levels of Air Pollution at Birmingham New Street.

[8J]

Are these the same trains that are supposedly still fit for purpose into their fourth decade ? Get shut, replace with new DMU's that can shut power packs down just the same as a modern car does at idle.

158's are a pain to get going from what I understand. The rest of the Sprinter and Pacer fleet aren't too bad plus in the not too distant future, these should be replaced with electric traction at Man Vic

 

[sprinterguy]

It's always amazed me that the issue of pollution at New Street isn't a bigger public issue. It's virtually an underground station, with minimal natural blowthrough, they spend a fortune on rebuilding the surface buildings, but it's still horrible down there!

Short of demolishing the whole concrete carbuncle above the platforms, which I guess would be even more disruptive than the current rebuild, I can't see that there's a huge amount that can be done with the restricted layout at platform level (although an effective ventilation system, as described above, in regular use would certainly be helpful). At least the intention with the rebuilt station is that circulation space at concourse level is increased, so passengers spend less time inhaling fumes at platform level.

 

[The Ham]

Not solved, but certainly reduced, I would have thought, based on current service patterns.

Most of the remaining diesel services would be 170s which have smaller, and generally fewer, engines per train and are usually either in and out or have their engines shut down between workings.

OK, not totally solved. Although with something like 4 Voyagers an hour it would be a fairly large reduction in polutionants.

What small (ish) wiring projects could be done to remove a few more of the DMU services?

 

[Greybeard33]

158's are a pain to get going from what I understand. The rest of the Sprinter and Pacer fleet aren't too bad plus in the not too distant future, these should be replaced with electric traction at Man Vic

On the occasions I have boarded a Northern Carlisle service at Leeds, the 158 has remained shut down until a few minutes before departure, and has restarted without difficulty.

The bay platforms at Manchester Victoria are used for Calder Valley line services. There are no firm plans to electrify this line.

 

[The Planner]

OK, not totally solved. Although with something like 4 Voyagers an hour it would be a fairly large reduction in polutionants.

What small (ish) wiring projects could be done to remove a few more of the DMU services?

Walsall Rugeley will remove a few, anything else will need a major scheme.

 

[theageofthetra]

Surely the greatest risk is to the staff who work down there? Are there any restrictions on how many hours they can be exposed to it. I believe there is some arrangement (official or not ) for the taxi marshalls at the underground rank at Euston- the polution down there is appalling.

 

[edwin_m]

Not sure how much benefit bi-modes replacing XC Voyagers would have at New Street. OK if going towards Manchester but for the other three routes the wires don't go very far from Birmingham, and the preference might be to get the diesel going at New Street rather than risking being unable to start it and being stranded where the wires end, which in all three cases is somewhere pretty inconvenient operationally. Then we're back to increased emissions from starting a cold engine...

 

[The Ham]

Not sure how much benefit bi-modes replacing XC Voyagers would have at New Street. OK if going towards Manchester but for the other three routes the wires don't go very far from Birmingham, and the preference might be to get the diesel going at New Street rather than risking being unable to start it and being stranded where the wires end, which in all three cases is somewhere pretty inconvenient operationally. Then we're back to increased emissions from starting a cold engine...

I wouldn't have thought that it would be a problem for a new train, so at least should help in the short term (i.e. until more wires can be provided).

Don't forget that some services towards the south coast also run via Coventry (also electrified), which reduces the problem (if indeed there is one).

 

[Wolfie]

Or some fans to blow out the fumes? Perhaps achievable quicker than electrification............

...and dump the pollutants into an already polluted city centre... ok if there is some wind about but if not...

 

[JamesRowden]

Build DEMUs which include supercapitors. The supercapacitors could be charged by a combination of regenerative braking and spare engine power when the train is not in a station. Basically the ERS system which is used in F1 applied to trains with an `engine off' mode. Supercapacitors make more sense than batteries because of their very fast charge/discharge rates. The system should also improve fuel economy.

 

[azz7008]

I wouldn't have thought that it would be a problem for a new train, so at least should help in the short term (i.e. until more wires can be provided).

Don't forget that some services towards the south coast also run via Coventry (also electrified), which reduces the problem (if indeed there is one).

There is plans to electrify the 'electric spine' from Oxford via Leamington Spa, so that would ease all Reading - Newcastles if they go DEMU.

 

[JamesRowden]

There is plans to electrify the 'electric spine' from Oxford via Leamington Spa, so that would ease all Reading - Newcastles if they go DEMU.

Voyagers are DEMUs. Do you mean EDMU/Bi-Mode?

 

[The Planner]

Electric Spine is far from committed, and you would still need Derby Birmingham doing and that is in the same position.

 

[azz7008]

Voyagers are DEMUs. Do you mean EDMU/Bi-Mode?

Yes, I mean Bi-Mode.

Electric Spine is far from committed, and you would still need Derby Birmingham doing and that is in the same position.

Is there any consultation to go any further than Derby? If not I'm not sure the benefits would be that great, but the proposed spine is for freight mainly anyway.

Getting back on topic, I was at New Street today and the fumes were terrible, much worse than usual. (Or was it because I read this thread?)

 

[Llanigraham]

Having just walked up the ramp from Paddington Station, I reckon there is more air pollution from all the smokers there than at New St!!

 

[Emblematic]

All new diesel trains have to meet stringent new pollution regulations. In fact they are so stringent that locomotives may have trouble fitting the necessary scrubbers within loading gauge.

Just like roads, the legislation is not retrospective.

Not that new, certainly not that stringent (compared to road) and the issues around fitting in the loading gauge are mostly imagined; plenty of diesels will be arriving in the next few years that tick all the necessarily boxes.

Road legislation not retrospective? Only if you ignore the London LEZ and forthcoming ULEZ, and similar local schemes across Europe.

People are no longer used to, or accepting of, environments with a polluted or smoky atmosphere. A smoky station is an anachronism, which needs addressing, legislation or otherwise.

 

[Envoy]

What about the passengers on board the trains at New Street? Surely, the ventilation systems are sucking in this polluted air or it is seeping through the open doors (& windows in the case of a few trains).

You can also smell diesel fumes when going through long tunnels - such as the Severn. All the more reason to try and get all services through the Severn tunnel (including freight) to switch to electric traction. Perhaps a Swansea to Bristol/Bath electric stopping service? Of course, the downside of this could be losing the direct trains between Portsmouth & Cardiff as they might terminate at Temple Meads.

Talking of Temple Meads, the Cross Country Voyagers usually come into platforms under the canopy. With electrification, perhaps the new Hitachi trains on the London run could use platforms under the canopy & the Voyagers use the 'open air' platforms currently used by the HST's? However, I understand that this might cause a conflict of movements over the different lines for those London trains using the Bath route.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Many years ago when 158s were brand new, myself and another forum member tried them out on the Edinburgh - Glasgow shuttle, their first route. On the way into Queen Street, the train got held in the tunnel and the carriages completely filled with a cloud of pale blue looking diesel exhaust so thick that we could taste it and it nearly hid the far end of the carriage from view. Literally; it really was that thick.

We complained in writing about that and suggested that when held in a tunnel the air conditioning should be temporarily switched off to prevent exhaust ingress.

They clearly didn't read the complaint properly because the reply came back that it they would not do this "...because the air conditioning is essential to provide a clean and healthy environment inside the train..."

:roll:

 

[Bletchleyite]

GWR Turbos permanently stink of fumes, makes me feel quite ill sometimes.

 

[tbtc]

I think there’s typically about forty five departures an hour from New Street:

• Nine to Wolverhampton
• Ten towards Five Ways
• Ten towards International/ Solihull
• Sixteen towards Water Orton/ Walsall

Based on regular operations, that’s eighteen or nineteen diesels per hour, around 41% of services.

But as a high percentage of those diesel services are terminating/ laying over/ reversing/ see crew changes, the dwell times are probably a bit higher (e.g. when compared to the twelve 323-operated services an hour on the Cross City line), so diesel services may make up over 50% of “platform occupancy” at New Street.

(I suppose one saving grace is that at least there’s generally only two or three services an hour operated by BR-era diesels - which will presumably be dirtier than modern ones – the ATW services plus whatever LM decide to tag a 150/153 onto)

Take the one service per hour to Rugeley away as it’ll be EMU operated before long.

Replace the Voyager/HST operated XC services with bi-modes (i.e. not touching the 170 operated Leicester/ Nottingham/ Cardiff services) and you’d get diesel services down to nine or ten per hour (under over 20% of the total forty five departures).

The remaining services are going to be harder nuts to crack – especially given the way that ATW run their Cambrian services (portion working plus ERTMS) – there’s nothing on the market that seems suitable right now.

Given the need for tilt to achieve 125mph, it’s probably going to be hard to get Virgin to surrender the last of their Voyagers (most of which don’t work through New Street anyway).

The crumple zones of 125mph stock would be overkill for the services to Hereford/ Cardiff/ Leicester/ Stansted/ Nottingham – it’s a shame Arriva’s “self powered” order for Northern didn’t introduce 100mph bi-mode stock to the UK as that’d be fine for these “ex Central Trains” routes.

But just replacing the Voyagers with bi-modes would make a big difference to air pollution. Not only that but it would create capacity on some of the busiest trains, which is a bonus...

Bi-mode is going to make a lot more sense on XC, with the gaps being filled in between Glasgow - Wakefield, the line from Manchester to Basingtoke will be wired before long...

...hundreds of miles are already wired, but various branches/ diversionary routes won’t be touched for decades (meaning pure-EMUs aren’t an option).

Put the Voyagers on service through windier places that have better ventilation (where air pollution will be less of an issue) – e.g. coastal routes!

People are no longer used to, or accepting of, environments with a polluted or smoky atmosphere. A smoky station is an anachronism, which needs addressing, legislation or otherwise

True.

Something that some clag-obsessed enthusiasts may not want to accept... but the railway is going to have to move on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For those who want "clag" there are preserved railways. Personally, I want my train services smooth, quiet and comfortable - and that means, so far as feasible, electric.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

(I suppose one saving grace is that at least there’s generally only two or three services an hour operated by BR-era diesels - which will presumably be dirtier than modern ones – the ATW services plus whatever LM decide to tag a 150/153 onto)

Voyagers appear to produce the most filth, far more than a small-engined 150 or 153.

 

[The Ham]

But just replacing the Voyagers with bi-modes would make a big difference to air pollution. Not only that but it would create capacity on some of the busiest trains, which is a bonus...

Bi-mode is going to make a lot more sense on XC, with the gaps being filled in between Glasgow - Wakefield, the line from Manchester to Basingtoke will be wired before long...

...hundreds of miles are already wired, but various branches/ diversionary routes won’t be touched for decades (meaning pure-EMUs aren’t an option).

Put the Voyagers on service through windier places that have better ventilation (where air pollution will be less of an issue) – e.g. coastal routes!

I agree, although as I've suggested on this thread Chiltern may make a good home for Voyagers.

The other advantage of bimodals is that XC could carry on using them when it is a bit rough past Dawlish, unlike the Voyagers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One of the risks of complaining *too* much about this is that they could ban loitering on platforms at New St, thus adding the "New St scrum" to the list of stations operated in that particular undesirable fashion.

 

[Mikey C]

(I suppose one saving grace is that at least there’s generally only two or three services an hour operated by BR-era diesels - which will presumably be dirtier than modern ones – the ATW services plus whatever LM decide to tag a 150/153 onto)

One thing worth bearing in mind, is that while old diesels engined trains and motor vehicles may emit lots of nasty black smoke and soot, poisonous NOx emissions are invisible, and a by product of higher efficiency modern diesel engines. It's the higher temperatures in the engines (that help reduce fuel consumption and CO2 emissions) which have led to the increase in NOx...

 

[exile]

One of the risks of complaining *too* much about this is that they could ban loitering on platforms at New St, thus adding the "New St scrum" to the list of stations operated in that particular undesirable fashion.

I already stay in the concourse until a couple of minutes before the train is due to depart

1. A cleaner and more pleasant environment
2. Less of a problem when your train is suddenly switched to a different platform.

 

[moggie]

Of course the occasional claggy unit can create quite a fog. But compared with the good ol' days it's nowhere near as bad as some make out.

For example, how many have detected even a whiff of fumes upstairs in the shopping centre (formerly known as a concourse)? I must admit when the new extraction fans were installed at New St, fan startup was obvious as a train approached the platform. Recently I haven't noticed them whirling away (maybe because I've just got used to their sound) but something is pretty effective at platform level in extracting any exhaust fumes - a necessary factoid as there will never be a 'business case' to electrify all passenger route miles, let alone the cash to pay for it when ranked with all the other financial demands placed on the railway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I already stay in the concourse until a couple of minutes before the train is due to depart

1. A cleaner and more pleasant environment
2. Less of a problem when your train is suddenly switched to a different platform.

That's fine as a choice, but if everyone did there would be serious congestion caused by a dangerous rush.

 

[DarloRich]

Of course the occasional claggy unit can create quite a fog. But compared with the good ol' days it's nowhere near as bad as some make out.

For example, how many have detected even a whiff of fumes upstairs in the shopping centre (formerly known as a concourse)? I must admit when the new extraction fans were installed at New St, fan startup was obvious as a train approached the platform. Recently I haven't noticed them whirling away (maybe because I've just got used to their sound) but something is pretty effective at platform level in extracting any exhaust fumes - a necessary factoid as there will never be a 'business case' to electrify all passenger route miles, let alone the cash to pay for it when ranked with all the other financial demands placed on the railway.

This! imagine a few 50's/47's/HST throbbing away down there. You should have tried Sunderland when a 56 chuntered through hauling a long rake of coal wagons.

I have never seen a problem at New Street but tend to wait upstairs until almost the last minute as the platforms are so uninviting and dull.

 

[edwin_m]

I would have thought a set of "Tyseley's finest" DMUs on the Cross-City blasting out of New Street would have done a pretty good job of gassing anyone nearby.

 

[Sniffingmoose]

When I pass through New St, I notice the 18:30 to Euston seems to be another Voyager under the wires as well thus adding to the fumes. I also notice Crosscountry shut down their terminating 170s from Nottingham for the 20minute layover. However I thought the station was smokier in the old days before the HST's were re-engined. But in the real old days all Manchester, Glasgow and Euston services were all electric. Why electrify if you are going to run diesel all the way under the wires.

I am told the environmental performance of modern trains is poorer than the older trains that they replaced because modern trains use more energy. Can anyone confirm?