Daughter issued with penalty fare by SouthEastern

[BluePenguin]

My only observation is that with the young lady in question being under 18 my understanding is that there would be very little chance of her actually being prosecuted

Would her Mum NOT paying the penalty fare not lead to her being summoned to court on her daughter behalf? As we all are aware, you cannot form a legally binding contract with a minor

 

[jumble]

Would her Mum NOT paying the penalty fare not lead to her being summoned to court on her daughter behalf? As we all are aware, you cannot form a legally binding contract with a minor

This thread would tend to suggest not

Penalty fare for a child?

Anyone know what the rules are here? Story as follows: 12-year-old on train in London, travelling to school, has an Oyster card but didn't bring it with him. Caught, gives address to inspector, receives demand for £20 by post. Parent appeals, receives reply to appeal as follows...

www.railforums.co.uk

Parent appeals, receives reply to appeal as follows:

"Whilst we acknowledge that it is not your responsibility as the legal parent/guardian to make payment, we advise you that the amount outstanding £20.00 must be forwarded within 14 days of the date of this letter in order to avoid further debt recovery action being taken which will incur an additional admin fee of £20.00."

However If it were my offspring I would pay as I would not want any strikes in case said offspring made a mistake in future
In any case we do not know how much the PF is cf the unpaid fare from Rochester

 

[Watershed]

Would her Mum NOT paying the penalty fare not lead to her being summoned to court on her daughter behalf?

No, the age of criminal responsibility is 10. Train companies can and do take people under 18 to court.

As we all are aware, you cannot form a legally binding contract with a minor

This is not the case. Minors can enter into binding contracts for "necessities" and I am sure train travel would be regarded as one of these.

In any case, this dispute isn't about any contract. It is about a Penalty Fare and the potential for criminal liability.

 

[jumble]

No, the age of criminal responsibility is 10. Train companies can and do take people under 18 to court.


This is not the case. Minors can enter into binding contracts for "necessities" and I am sure train travel would be regarded as one of these.

In any case, this dispute isn't about any contract. It is about a Penalty Fare and the potential for criminal liability.

I am sure they do if there are aggravating factors but for a first offence I doubt very much any such thing will happen in the real world
I am sure you are well aware of ATOCs guidance of prosecution policy as far as public interest is concerned

https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/about-us/publications/acop/204-2015-08-atoc-gn028-1/file.html

TFL certainly do not prosecute under age fare dodgers

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/how_many_teenagers_between_13_

Although children between 13-17 are issued with Penalty Fare Notices for
fare evasion, TfL does not prosecute under 18s for this type of offence.

 

[BluePenguin]

One of the issues seems to be that the short fairing was unintentional. After the train has departed from the station you boarded, it is not possible to buy ticket from that station, so that OP’s daughter bought from the next station along.

Had this not been the case and she had bought a ticket from the correct station, surely she should’ve been able to collect it at her destination and be let go?

 

[Watershed]

After the train has departed from the station you boarded, it is not possible to buy ticket from that station, so that OP’s daughter bought from the next station along.

Yes it is, you just wouldn't be able to select the train you're on. You can still buy a ticket as long as you select a walkup fare, for a later service.

Had this not been the case and she had bought a ticket from the correct station, surely she should’ve been able to collect it at her destination and be let go?

It's unlikely - I think that SE are still under the impression that OP's daughter travelled in from Rochester.

Just about the only thing that would have got OP's daughter out of practical trouble would have been tapping a contactless card on the barriers. The daughter would still have committed an offence, it just wouldn't have been discovered. But this speculation is of no assistance to OP or their daughter now.

 

[BluePenguin]

Yes it is, you just wouldn't be able to select the train you're on. You can still buy a ticket as long as you select a walkup fare, for a later service.


It's unlikely - I think that SE are still under the impression that OP's daughter travelled in from Rochester.

Just about the only thing that would have got OP's daughter out of practical trouble would have been tapping a contactless card on the barriers. The daughter would still have committed an offence, it just wouldn't have been discovered. But this speculation is of no assistance to OP or their daughter now.

That is what I meant, I got the impression that she tried to select the service she was on but couldn’t so chose the next one. In the past when I have been running late, the conductor has happily printed off the tickets I bought without fuss. It’s a shame not many of them seem to be walking up and down the train at the moment.

If Southeastern are still under impression she travelled from Rochester despite her admission, then that could be a little tricky

That is a good point, tapping a contactless card would have got her out of the situation, but still leaving the fare due.

it’s unfortunate but rules are rules. Getting on the train without a ticket, whether having paid in advance for one or not is always going to be a risk.

 

[skyhigh]

One of the issues seems to be that the short fairing was unintentional.

When it comes to prosecution under the Byelaws, they are strict liability so intent doesn't matter.

That is what I meant, I got the impression that she tried to select the service she was on but couldn’t so chose the next one

In this case they chose the next station not the next service.

In the past when I have been running late, the conductor has happily printed off the tickets I bought without fuss. It’s a shame not many of them seem to be walking up and down the train at the moment.

By doing that you risk a penalty fare. You must collect your tickets before you travel. The exception is if the equipment required to print the ticket is faulty. Running late isn't a valid excuse.

 

[Harold Hill]

No offence intended but if I had to choose between shelling out 20£ or spending a week in a forum discussing a minor situation I'd just pay up and move on. But that's just me

 

[BluePenguin]

By doing that you risk a penalty fare. You must collect your tickets before you travel. The exception is if the equipment required to print the ticket is faulty. Running late isn't a valid excuse.

Why? The rules are buy before you board. I had bought. The argument about tickets still being sold on board the train will never be resolved until there is a blanket rule. Some are even allowed to buy their destination

Printing off someone’s ticket who clearly intended to pay and then did, is different in my opinion

 

[Watershed]

Why? The rules are buy before you board. I had bought. The argument about tickets still being sold on board the train will never be resolved until there is a blanket rule. Some are even allowed to buy their destination

Printing off someone’s ticket who clearly intended to pay and then did, is different in my opinion

A ticket isn't valid unless you have it in your possession. "Buy before you board" is a slightly inaccurate colloquialism.

 

[RPI]

Why? The rules are buy before you board. I had bought. The argument about tickets still being sold on board the train will never be resolved until there is a blanket rule. Some are even allowed to buy their destination

Printing off someone’s ticket who clearly intended to pay and then did, is different in my opinion

You must have a ticket for the purpose of travelling before boarding the train, unless you were permitted to board by an authorised person or there were no facilities available prior to travel. A booking reference is not a valid ticket, in the same way that if you go to an ATM, take 20 quid out along with a recipt, try using the recipt to go and buy goods.

 

[Snow1964]

You must have a ticket for the purpose of travelling before boarding the train, unless you were permitted to board by an authorised person or there were no facilities available prior to travel. A booking reference is not a valid ticket, in the same way that if you go to an ATM, take 20 quid out along with a recipt, try using the recipt to go and buy goods.

It’s all very well quoting the letter of the law, the practical problem is if the station nearest your permanent home doesn’t offer facilities to buy the ticket, then an open gate at another station that allows you to walk on is not a very clear indication of the different rules being applied.

The ATM example is irrelevant, if you request £20, you get £20 wherever you are in the country, regardless of which operator runs the machine.

What it sounds to me here, is the person lives near some unspecified station in Devon, where many stations have pay on train policy, but whilst visiting someone used a station in Kent, and walked on in same way. But a different ticketing policy was in force (even though it is same country, England).

Even the ticketing experts on this forum are unlikely to be able to name the ticket collection locations for each station, or alternative first place to collect tickets for all 3000+ stations from memory. Which proves system is too complicated to remember.

 

[skyhigh]

Why? The rules are buy before you board. I had bought. The argument about tickets still being sold on board the train will never be resolved until there is a blanket rule. Some are even allowed to buy their destination

Printing off someone’s ticket who clearly intended to pay and then did, is different in my opinion

You need to be able to show a valid ticket on request. A collection reference is not a ticket.

 

[AlterEgo]

It’s all very well quoting the letter of the law, the practical problem is if the station nearest your permanent home doesn’t offer facilities to buy the ticket, then an open gate at another station that allows you to walk on is not a very clear indication of the different rules being applied.

I'd argue the presence of signage, a gate, a booking office and ticket machines - unlike the "rural Devon" example - would be quite a good indicator for most people that a ticket was ordinarily required to board the train at Gillingham.

But I accept your point that the inconsistency across the network, which is very diverse, is probably the main factor at play in the OP's case.

 

[RPI]

It’s all very well quoting the letter of the law, the practical problem is if the station nearest your permanent home doesn’t offer facilities to buy the ticket, then an open gate at another station that allows you to walk on is not a very clear indication of the different rules being applied.

The ATM example is irrelevant, if you request £20, you get £20 wherever you are in the country, regardless of which operator runs the machine.

What it sounds to me here, is the person lives near some unspecified station in Devon, where many stations have pay on train policy, but whilst visiting someone used a station in Kent, and walked on in same way. But a different ticketing policy was in force (even though it is same country, England).

Even the ticketing experts on this forum are unlikely to be able to name the ticket collection locations for each station, or alternative first place to collect tickets for all 3000+ stations from memory. Which proves system is too complicated to remember.

Utter tosh, the road outside my home is residential and has a 30mph limit, if I go 200 miles away to another residential area that has a 20 limit i can't use the excuse that the limit near my home is 30 so how was I meant to know? The court would quite rightly state that there were speed signs. As per the PF signs in this case. As stated before, I'm an inspector in "rural Devon", whilst many stations are open with no facilities, there are a large chunk which do have facilities and the relevant signage regarding Penalty Fares.

 

[BluePenguin]

You must have a ticket for the purpose of travelling before boarding the train, unless you were permitted to board by an authorised person or there were no facilities available prior to travel. A booking reference is not a valid ticket, in the same way that if you go to an ATM, take 20 quid out along with a recipt, try using the recipt to go and buy goods.

But that is a terrible analogy. The booking reference can be used to print out the tickets, plus the money is already in the railways account. There is zero intent to avoid paying a fare. Especially if the ticket is non-refundable anyway.

I cannot use a receipt to print out more money. Same as a collection receipt cannot be used to re-print tickets

You need to be able to show a valid ticket on request. A collection reference is not a ticket.

Whoever wants to see the ticket can print it off using the same equipment, if they insist

 

[BlockBackBobby]

No offence intended but if I had to choose between shelling out 20£ or spending a week in a forum discussing a minor situation I'd just pay up and move on. But that's just me

And me, 100%

 

[RPI]

But that is a terrible analogy. The booking reference can be used to print out the tickets, plus the money is already in the railways account. There is zero intent to avoid paying a fare. Especially if the ticket is non-refundable anyway.

I cannot use a receipt to print out more money. Same as a collection receipt cannot be used to re-print tickets


Whoever wants to see the ticket can print it off using the same equipment, if they insist

This has been done to death but if you re read the thread you'll see that the booking reference is not a ticket, when booked it clearly states that the ticket has to be printed before travel before purchase is complete, had the ticket been printed it still wasn't valid for the entire journey, you don't need to prove intent for a successful byelaw 18 prosecution.

I think we've covered it all now.

 

[skyhigh]

Whoever wants to see the ticket can print it off using the same equipment, if they insist

Conductors at several TOCs can't print ToD for a start. The rules on using these kinds of tickets are clear, and you'll only have yourself to blame if you get caught out.

 

[BluePenguin]

Conductors at several TOCs can't print ToD for a start. The rules on using these kinds of tickets are clear, and you'll only have yourself to blame if you get caught out.

Each to their own.

This has been done to death but if you re read the thread you'll see that the booking reference is not a ticket, when booked it clearly states that the ticket has to be printed before travel before purchase is complete, had the ticket been printed it still wasn't valid for the entire journey, you don't need to prove intent for a successful byelaw 18 prosecution.

I think we've covered it all now.

I am aware of that. I read the entire thread. We haven’t covered it as the OP still requires help. Anything that will assist their daughter is a plus at this point. It is unfortunate they only had a ticket from Rochester. A mistake made is a lesson learnt

 

[skyhigh]

Anything that will assist their daughter is a plus at this point.

Nothing you've said is any assistance, and at worst potentially misleading. It is a mandatory requirement to print your tickets before you travel, unless you have permission or the machine is broken.

Even if the ticket was for the full journey, they would still have been liable for a penalty fare if it hadn't been printed.

You might have been shown discretion before, but that does not change the rules.

 

[BluePenguin]

Nothing you've said is any assistance, and at worst potentially misleading. It is a mandatory requirement to print your tickets before you travel, unless you have permission or the machine is broken.

Even if the ticket was for the full journey, they would still have been liable for a penalty fare if it hadn't been printed.

You might have been shown discretion before, but that does not change the rules.

Well then, do you have any helpful input?

I completely disagree. If the machine is broken and ticket office is closed, that is different. An airline will print a boarding pass. If the railway can print the ticket, they should. Nobody runs down a 12 car train and seeks permission. They expect to buy on board, despite the rules.

The rules state the fare must be paid for the full journey. It is frankly ridiculous to sell tickets on board to some people yet penalty fare others. The same rules must apply to everyone or nobody.

In your opinion, do you believe the OP should have been shown discression? The man who arrived with no ticket clearly was claiming he “lost it” - which proves my point. She bought a ticket albeit the wrong one.

 

[Snow1964]

Conductors at several TOCs can't print ToD for a start. The rules on using these kinds of tickets are clear, and you'll only have yourself to blame if you get caught out.

But some can and will, and it is the inconsistency that is customer unfriendly and annoying some people in this thread.

It is not about rules weren’t followed in this instance, it is about different rules at different stations, and the rules that weren’t followed are station specific, but acceptable (or even the norm) at other stations. It’s not like open stations are painted a different colour to penalty fare ones to help distinguish them, they are just mixed nationally and look similar.

Saying there were signs is basically saying even if you have used a train before, you need to reread every sign because we might have changed the rules or operating different rules since last station where you read signs. Completely unreasonable, if you go to a different branch of Tesco, you are not expected to read every sign, so why say it is required on railway. That sort of thought just winds people up.

 

[furlong]

This is drifting off-topic now, but this sub-forum has to try to deal with the rules as they are, not how participants might prefer them to be - something we're all guilty of at times. We have been presented with a second-hand account of an interaction in which it is alleged that someone authorised to collect a penalty fare knowingly issued false paperwork to a passenger. If proven, that individual should anticipate disciplinary action. But if the OP pursues the matter and it turns out that it was the passenger's account that was "rose-tinted", the passenger should anticipate prosecution - or at least a substantially more expensive settlement than the penalty fare not least as they may then need to bear all the additional costs of the unnecessary investigation into the employee's actions.

 

[skyhigh]

Well then, do you have any helpful input?

My input, as already posted on this thread, was that given the errors made a penalty fare was a reasonable outcome and it's best just to pay it and move on.

An airline will print a boarding pass. If the railway can print the ticket, they should. Nobody runs down a 12 car train and seeks permission. They expect to buy on board, despite the rules.

But the railway does print tickets - at the station.

The rules state the fare must be paid for the full journey. It is frankly ridiculous to sell tickets on board to some people yet penalty fare others. The same rules must apply to everyone or nobody.

If ticket facilities were not available at one station but were at every other station then yes it does make sense to penalty fare some people but not others? But what does this have to do with printing the ticket before you board?

In your opinion, do you believe the OP should have been shown discression?

Short ticket and not printed, so a penalty fare is appropriate in my opinion (although there is the issue of the starting station). A prosecution based on the facts presented would succeed.

You seem to have moved on from 'you don't have to print your ticket before you board' to 'people expect to buy on board'. This area of the forum is meant to offer advice based on the actual rules rather than just 'I collect on the train and I don't have a problem'.

To be crystal clear - if a TOC wanted to prosecute for non-collection of a ticket they have the option of Byelaw 18:

18. Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas
(1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel.
(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person.
(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:
(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey; or
(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or
(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket.

A collection reference is not a ticket, and you can't hand over a ticket if you haven't collected it. In 18.3 those are the valid reasons for travel on a collection reference without collecting the ticket.

The Terms and Conditions of various retailers also agree - here's Trainline as an example:

Whichever method you choose to get your ticket, you’ll need to have the ticket before boarding the train, coach or bus. For some services, it may be that collection at the station is the only possible option so you will need to leave enough time to collect your ticket before boarding your train. If you don’t show a valid ticket when asked, you’ll be responsible for paying your full fare again as well as a penalty fare

 

[sladeeee]

Hi, I just dropped back in to read any updates... I don't think I will go around in circles again replying to specific posts other than to make a few points which seem to continually be errr "misinterpreted" (or ignored):

* Referring with hindsight to page 18 of the second 36 page T&Cs out of a set of 3, does not make rules about having a ticket before travel obvious (as the inspector himself stated!) - the simple fact is that thetrainline.com does NOT clearly state you need to print the ticket before travel when you buy. If you disagree with this I would recommend you read through the entirety of your 85 page Apple agreement to check that you are allowed to disagree with a public post using an Apple product... are you sure you're allowed to...?

* Furthermore it is not a mandatory requirement to print a ticket before travel if you have an eTicket. That's the whole point and that alone makes it confusing. Today's youth in particular expect (a) eTickets in general (why print something that can be displayed on a phone? Everything is done with QR codes now), and (b) expect an app to be consistent - if last time they bought a train ticket from an app it gave them an eTicket, why would they possibly expect it to be different the next time?

* My daughter's experience of commuting to school on the trains was not in "rural Devon", it was SWT in Surrey - neither start nor end stations had barriers at all, they were both open stations. My experience of 20 years of people buying tickets on trains (when deliberately not having a ticket half the time) was also on SWT in and out of London. Trying to make out this is all down to "backwards people from the countryside" is not the case and not very helpful to understanding that 99.99% of people aren't experts in train regulations.

* However anecdotally, my daughter was on the trains in deepest darkest rural Devon this weekend - no barriers at Exton (request stop), Exmouth or Paignton. No Signs about penalty fares. Used thetrainline.com app and got an eTicket again (same as every other time apart from Gillingham!) - staff checked tickets on board and some passengers asked for and paid for their tickets then and there, no issues. Shrug, what are the rules to the average person if you don't read 100+ pages of T&Cs?

* To the 2 people who think £20 isn't worth the time to post on this forum (but then posted on this forum), I'm very pleased you are so wealthy that £20 means nothing to you - this cost my daughter/me £41 in total, we would be delighted to accept your offer of donations of £20 each as the amount is so meaningless to you

 

[221129]

No Signs about penalty fares.

There definitely are at Exmouth and Paignton.

 

[[.n]]

As an aside (and I don't use SWR routes enough to fully know) I wonder if their policy / approach has altered since the change of franchise holder from SWT to SWR in 2017.

On my SWT/SWR route(s) nothing has really changed, I often buy my tickets from the guard. Having said that where I am the stations are largely unstaffed / unbarriered

 

[duncombec]

I checked Gillingham station last night. The large A1-sized notice about penalty fares and the need to have a ticket before boarding, as shown in post 22, is directly in front of you as you go through the barriers. Granted I was looking for it, but I could see it from the entrance to the station, so definitely not hidden in a corner. If anything, it was by far the most visible notice of any of the stations I have visited for various reasons over the last week. In fact, revenue protection teams were in presence as I checked, including having a lengthy discussion with one "customer".

Regardless of any Terms & Conditions of The Trainline, or the prevalence of e-tickets elsewhere, the simple fact is that SouthEastern is not SouthWest trains, they have their own rules, and however innocently intended, and however much attempt was made to fix it, they were broken, and the appropriate penalty fare has been issued.

I don't think anyone has "ignored" or "misinterpreted" the points the OP makes or leaves it to "backwards people in the countryside": it is simply stating the facts that the rules were broken, and SouthEastern really won't be bothered about what things are like in a different area of the country they aren't responsible for.