Day 2 of outward portion of Off Peak Return

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bakerstreet

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Could I just check that the following does what it says on the tin:

the outward portion of Off-Peak Returns are valid for travel on the date shown on the ticket. Where a passenger wishes to stop overnight or the journey cannot be completed within one day, break of journey for an overnight stay is allowed. Where a journey does continue into the next day, travel must resume before 1200 and any relevant time restrictions apply. No further break of journey is allowed except for the purpose of changing trains.
This is from the latest NFM from the ticket details of a Potters Bar to Basingstoke SVR.

I have one dated for outward travel today (Sat), picked up in advance. For various reasons I didn't do the Potters Bar to London section today but I would like to do London to Basingstoke tomorrow. Assuming I comply with the before 12noon requirement will I need to do a lot of explaining or will it be ok. Am thinking particularly of on train check and ticket gates at Waterloo and Basingstoke. Or would I be better buying a fresh single ticket?
 
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David Goddard

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Can see no reason why you should have an issue with this.
You present yourself at Waterloo tomorrow morning and resume your journey.
As far as anyone else is concerned, you started your journey at Potters Bar today.
 

OwlMan

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Strictly speaking it will not be valid unless you had started your journey on the date of the ticket.
Make sure that you know details of which train you wouls have caught and whether it was late; are there barriers at Potters Bar (you would need to pass through these and those at KingsX) - It is possible that it could be found out if your ticket had passed through any automatic gates.
 

island

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Did they not change it so that the journey had to be completed by 0429 on the day after the date on the ticket?
 

David Goddard

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This does indeed appeared to have changed

From the National Rail website:
When can I use an Off-Peak ticket?

Off-Peak Single and Off-Peak Day (Single and Return) tickets must be used on the date shown on the ticket and up to 04:29 the following morning.

For Off-Peak Return tickets, outward journeys must be made on the date shown on the ticket and up to 04:29 the following morning; return journeys must be made within one calendar month and up to 04:29 the morning following the last day of validity.
 
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bakerstreet

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From the National Rail website:
When can I use an Off-Peak ticket?

Off-Peak Single and Off-Peak Day (Single and Return) tickets must be used on the date shown on the ticket and up to 04:29 the following morning.

For Off-Peak Return tickets, outward journeys must be made on the date shown on the ticket and up to 04:29 the following morning; return journeys must be made within one calendar month and up to 04:29 the morning following the last day of validity.
That is annoying! I guess the text from NFM doesn't override that.

Interesting though that, particularly on a weekend there will be many SVR off-peak return journeys impossible to complete by 0429 the following day. In effect that new rule, on paper at least, may prevent many longer journeys being started even early evening.

Can anyone commercial guard/RPI confirm their view on this, our of interest ?

That seems to have effectively limited the validity hugely of many journeys.
 

bignosemac

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But don't the outward portions of Off Peak Returns now have two days validity? So they are in effect valid until 0429 on the third day.
 

bignosemac

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Ahh, my mistake.

So how do I get to Inverness from St Ives using an Off Peak Return and wishing to avoid London?
 

Indigo2

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Someone needs to post a quote from The Manual. The information on NRE (that bakerstreet has quoted) seems to have been over-simplified and misses out the break of journey conditions - which allow validity until 0429 on the third day as long as the journey has been started (and broken) on the first day.
 

bakerstreet

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Ahh, my mistake.

So how do I get to Inverness from St Ives using an Off Peak Return and wishing to avoid London?
That's exactly the type of problem I was wondering about. That 'use by 0429 on day 2' seems to make many journeys impossible and others inconveniently removing flexibility. Did this reduction in validity require approval from DfT ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Someone needs to post a quote from The Manual. The information on NRE (that bakerstreet has quoted) seems to have been over-simplified and misses out the break of journey conditions - which allow validity until 0429 on the third day as long as the journey has been started (and broken) on the first day.
I was actually re-quoting David Goddard. My original posting at the start was from I think the latest NFM which seemed to suggest I had until 12noon to resume my journey on day 2 and then complete with no further breaks of journey.

Yes, a quote from The Manual from anyone who has access would be terrific!
 
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DaveNewcastle

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BVR SVR: Standard Off-Peak Return
Outward Validity
Date on ticket until 04:29 the next morning
Time restrictions apply : Time restrictions are indicated by a restriction shown against the ticket’s validity code.

Return Validity
One calendar month until 04:29 after last day of validity
Time restrictions apply : Time restrictions are indicated by a restriction shown against the ticket’s validity code.

Break of Journey
Out : Yes
Return : Yes
Break of journey is allowed on the outward portion of Off-Peak tickets unless otherwise indicated by a restriction shown against the ticket’s validity code and in all cases on the return portion of Off-Peak return tickets.

Off-Peak Singles and the outward portion of Off-Peak Returns are valid for travel on the date shown on the ticket and until 04:29 the following morning. If the journey cannot be completed in this time, the ticket may be used to continue the journey on the following day. Unless otherwise indicated in the relevant restriction code, the same time restrictions from the origin station apply on BOTH days. All travel must be completed by 04:29 in the morning after this second day. Please note that break of journey is not permitted on some journeys, as detailed in the ticket restrictions.

Return portions of Off-Peak Return tickets are valid for travel until 04:29 on the day following the last day of validity (i.e. one calendar month from outward journey). All travel must be completed by this time.

Note: Cross London transfers on Off-Peak Singles will only be accepted by London Underground on the date shown on the ticket and until 04:29 the following day.
 

bakerstreet

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BVR SVR: Standard Off-Peak Return
Off-Peak Singles and the outward portion of Off-
Peak Returns are valid for travel on the date shown
on the ticket and until 04:29 the following morning. If
the journey cannot be completed in this time, the ticket may be used to continue the journey on the
following day. Unless otherwise indicated in the
relevant restriction code, the same time restrictions
from the origin station apply on BOTH days. All
travel must be completed by 04:29 in the morning
after this second day.
Thanks Dave Newcastle. Is it just me or is that unnecessarily complicated ! And is it now not my choice to resume the next day only if it 'cannot be completed in this time'.

Can't it just say outward journeys must be started by 0429 the following morning and must be completed by 0429 on the third day, observing any time restrictions on both days.
 

exile

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There is a difference between
"If the journey cannot be completed in this time"
and
"Where a passenger wishes to stop overnight or the journey cannot be completed within one day, break of journey for an overnight stay is allowed".

One of these must be incorrect!
 

John @ home

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There is useful clarification in the Revised NRCoC thread.

See the questions by kwvr45 in post #78 and the helpful response on 29 September 2011 by thedbdiboy, who appears to speak with authority on these matters, in post #102 that "All travel must be completed by 0429 past midnight on the second day"
is actually meant to be 0429 on the third day. This has been clarified in the follow up Q&A sent out earlier this week. No-one spotted the confusing wording during the proof reading :oops:
 

yorkie

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The whole thing is incredibly confusing.

The old wording used to be not great as I was once involved in an altercation at Slough with some disgraceful FGW barrier staff who attempted to stop me breaking my journey (York-Weymouth) overnight. I had absolutely no problems with the far better FGW and SWT guards. The wording then changed to the wording in the original post, and that was a huge step forward as it gave customers the right to choose (and not be forced to arrive at their destination at some daft time like 0130!)

But now they've changed again, but not in all places, and are even more confusing. It appears the new wording contains errors. This was clarified in an extremely helpful post by a very helpful member of this forum back in September 2011.
 

bignosemac

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What is needed is for publicly available information to be explicit. Memos to staff are not good enough.

I'm confident I can argue that my hypothetical Off Peak journey from Cornwall to Inverness (avoiding London) should be allowed to include an overnight stop as the journey would be impossible otherwise, thanks in part to XCs shameful blanket 0930 restriction.

I'm less confident all staff I encounter en route would be aware of these memos and that what I'm doing is permitted. NRE is not clear on this. Avantix Traveller is still quoting the old rules, and The Manual only says, 'Date on ticket until 04:29 the next morning' when you check, for example, SVR.
 

sheff1

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What is needed is for publicly available information to be explicit. Memos to staff are not good enough.
... and neither is an 'extremely helpful post by a very helpful member of this forum'.

As I said back then, a post by an unamed person on an internet forum is unlikley to be of much use if you encounter a member of staff who is unaware of the memo.
 

DaveNewcastle

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and if the definition was ever contested in a Claim in the Magistrates Court, I have no doubt that there would be barely a millisecond between any advocate (Barrister or otherwise) referring to these helpful clarifications and the opposition taking to its feet to point out that they're not here to listen to clarifications but to apply the Law.

It seems significant that ATOC have had opportunities to correct the alledged 'mistake' of "second day" to "third day" but have not done so.

It may indeed be a 'mistake'. They may indeed mean "third day". They may even have intended to make a correction. But the Condition still says "second day".

As for why this matters so much, consider please the dreadful possibility that there was some serious loss of life or limb affecting a passenger. The Insurers will be concerned to learn if the victim was travelling as authorised and therefore covered by the relevant Policy. They will determine this by reference to the Ticket(s) and the Conditions (as they are written). In fact, their assessment of the risk they have underwritten will already have been based on the Conditions as written. To be clear, anyone travelling on the third day will be uninsured. Probably.

I wish I could agree with posters who have been informed by the clarification that ATOC meant "third day".
 
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