Day Rangers

[Lewisham2221]

Just a quick one.

Can you purchase a day ranger on the train (if starting from an unstaffed station)?

If not, can you excess from a single to a day ranger?

 

[WestCoast]

Yes, I have done so many times with Northern Rail. It may take the guard/RPI a little longer to locate the ticket (PTE tickets can be hard to find especially), but they should be available where the full range of tickets can be offered onboard.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Yes, I have done so many times with Northern Rail. It may take the guard/RPI a little longer to locate the ticket (PTE tickets can be hard to find especially), but they should be available where the full range of tickets can be offered onboard.

Thanks. Any idea if it's possible to excess to one, in case I get a guard who can't issue it?

 

[trentside]

Thanks. Any idea if it's possible to excess to one, in case I get a guard who can't issue it?

A guard should be able to issue a day ranger ticket - though I believe some TOCs do restrict the sale of certain (or possibly all) rovers and rangers onboard (I'm not sure which though). The rovers are located under the 'Secondary' menu on the Avantix machines, but should the guard not be able to find the one you require then just go to a ticket office and you should be able to get the single (for want of a better word) part-exchanged for a rover.

 

[island]

There are some issues with certain Rovers and Rangers which are issued on special stock.

 

[SickyNicky]

When buying rovers on Northern from unstaffed stations, I find that the guard doesn't know how to issue them about half the time.

In those cases they have always allowed me to ride to the first place I want to change and get the rover there.

On one occassion the guard called his control to get instructions on how to issue the rover (a FONW 4 in 8) from his Avantix and eventually managed to sell me one (this was on the Cumbrian Coast, so plenty of time for him to work it out!). I think he was also a bit worried that it wasn't valid at 6.10am on a weekday, but his control cleared that one up as well.

 

[ainsworth74]

On the odd occasion that a guard has been unable to issue me a ranger/rover on board they've told me to buy it from the first manned station I come to rather than issuing a single to that station.

I don't think it's possible to excess and normal single ticket up to a rover/ranger.

 

[34D]

Just a quick one.

Can you purchase a day ranger on the train (if starting from an unstaffed station)?

Would this unstaffed station have a tvm and/or be in a penalty fares area?

 

[221129]

Would this unstaffed station have a tvm and/or be in a penalty fares area?

Does it matter?

 

[ainsworth74]

Does it matter?

Travelling without a ticket in a Penalty Fare area could lead you open to getting a PF. In such circumstances it would probably be wise to get a permit to travel (should such a machine be available) or buy a ticket that goes at least part of the way for the journey you want to make which would then be used as credit when issuing the proper ticket (at least that's the procedure when a TVM doesn't sell the ticket you want, I assume it's the same with Rovers/Rangers).

 

[bb21]

Does it matter?

Yes. If the answer to both questions were "yes" then the passenger could be liable for a Penalty Fare if boarding without a ticket, by virtual of NRCoC Condition 3 iirc.

 

[221129]

Surely you can't get a PF if the ticket you want isn't available

 

[bb21]

Surely you can't get a PF if the ticket you want isn't available

You're supposed to purchase a ticket that would allow you to make part of the journey and then exchange it for the ticket you want. If you don't do that, you can be liable for a Penalty Fare.

 

[221129]

Ahhh ok Thanks thats useful to know So if for example I was travelling from Tiverton Parkway and wanted a Devon Ranger, and the ticket office was shut and I was travelling to Plymouth I would have to buy a single to Plymouth or risk an Penaly Fare?

 

[bb21]

Ahhh ok Thanks thats useful to know So if for example I was travelling from Tiverton Parkway and wanted a Devon Ranger, and the ticket office was shut and I was travelling to Plymouth I would have to buy a single to Plymouth or risk an Penaly Fare?

Part fare means you should purchase a ticket to a station down the line (Exeter St D or Plymouth for example) and exchange at the first opportunity, which may be with the guard, or at the ticket office at Plymouth.

 

[221129]

Ahhh ok I shall bare that in mind then.

 

[34D]

Ahhh ok Thanks thats useful to know So if for example I was travelling from Tiverton Parkway and wanted a Devon Ranger, and the ticket office was shut and I was travelling to Plymouth I would have to buy a single to Plymouth or risk an Penaly Fare?

To quote from the authoritative document, the NRCOC:

3. Where the full range of tickets is not available
If you cannot buy an appropriate ticket for the journey you want to make because the range of tickets that is available at the station from which you intend to start your journey is restricted, you must buy a ticket or Permit to Travel before you travel that entitles you to make at least part of the journey. Then you must, as soon as is reasonably practicable, buy an appropriate ticket to complete your journey. In these circumstances, you only need to pay the fare that you would have paid if you had bought a ticket immediately before your journey. The price you will have to pay will be reduced by the amount paid for the ticket or Permit to Travel.

(Note that this applies with or without a PF area)

 

[bnm]

Interesting scenario:

What if the part-journey ticket(s) is/are more expensive than the ticket(s) you require?

Say for example there's four of you and you want GroupSave CDR from Tiverton to Exeter St Davids? The ticket office is closed and the TVM doesn't do GroupSave. There's no PERTIS. Total cost of travel for the group should be £10.

To comply with NRCoC Condition 3 each person needs to buy a ticket for at least part of their journey, that would have to be 4X CDS. Total cost £19.60.

Effectively to comply with the rules you'd have to pay double and go through a tortuous process to re-claim the overpayment. Neither a conductor/TM or the ticket office at EXD would be in a position to give a refund there and then for TVM issued tickets.

 

[wintonian]

We have discussed this somewhere before possibly without conclusion, but I would assume in this case you should be refunded the difference (on the spot IMO) but whether this would happen in reality or not I have no idea.

I do suspect however that it is quite likley you would be told to send your request buy Royal Mail.

 

[34D]

To comply with NRCoC Condition 3 each person needs to buy

This is not what is stated though

 

[hairyhandedfool]

This is not what is stated though

If you do not have a ticket you are liable to pay for a Penalty Fare or the full Anytime fare as appropriate.

A single ticket will show how many people it covers, normally this is one. This is displayed on the ticket.

If four adults travel and between them they have one ticket, which states "Adults ONE Child NIL", three of them do not have a ticket and are liable to pay for a Penalty Fare or the full Anytime fare as appropriate.

 

[Goatboy]

If you do not have a ticket you are liable to pay for a Penalty Fare or the full Anytime fare as appropriate.

A single ticket will show how many people it covers, normally this is one. This is displayed on the ticket.

If four adults travel and between them they have one ticket, which states "Adults ONE Child NIL", three of them do not have a ticket and are liable to pay for a Penalty Fare or the full Anytime fare as appropriate.

Frankly this should be the railways problem not the customers. If the correct ticket for the 4 people costs £10 - perhaps they only have £10 between them - then irrespective of what revenue protection schemes the TOC has decided to operate the maximum they should have to pay is £10.

Otherwise what else are they supposed to do upon arrival at the station to find its closed? Go home again? How is it even remotely the problem of the passenger that the booking office is not sufficiently staffed to enable them to purchase the ticket they require?

There should be a PERTIS machine at *every* station if they wish to operate a PF Zone. If there isn't, then people who cannot buy the tickets they want end up in a situation which is of no fault of their own.

I would hope that in a situation like this the train manager would show descretion and issue the Groupsave ticket irrespective of the Penalty Fare zone status.

 

[wintonian]

Frankly this should be the railways problem not the customers. If the correct ticket for the 4 people costs £10 - perhaps they only have £10 between them - then irrespective of what revenue protection schemes the TOC has decided to operate the maximum they should have to pay is £10.

Otherwise what else are they supposed to do upon arrival at the station to find its closed? Go home again? How is it even remotely the problem of the passenger that the booking office is not sufficiently staffed to enable them to purchase the ticket they require?

Have you heard of hobson's choice?

 

[CockneySparrow]

Just a quick one.

Can you purchase a day ranger on the train (if starting from an unstaffed station)?

If not, can you excess from a single to a day ranger?

Can't you purchase this ticket from the usual machines where you are, here in East Anglia the Anglia Plus ticket is available on the ticket machine, in fact its on the home screen as a popular ticket, however I dont think you can buy the 3 in 7 version though, perhaps someone will correct me if I am wrong

 

[harz99]

Can't you purchase this ticket from the usual machines where you are, here in East Anglia the Anglia Plus ticket is available on the ticket machine, in fact its on the home screen as a popular ticket, however I dont think you can buy the 3 in 7 version though, perhaps someone will correct me if I am wrong

For reasons unbeknown to me, two part rover tickets seem to be impossible to buy from TVMs, on train or even from ticket machine equipped barrier staff.

Causes me the occasional problem when my local station (LOC) ticket office is not open on a Saturday morning and I wish to travel on the 0806 Tpex service to MAN, as the guard will accept my undated retired priv pass as an authority to travel with a "buy your tickets at your destination/when you alight", trouble is I then have to get through the Northern barrier Line at MAN to do so!

What makes it worse, is that also for reasons I don't know there appears to be a "bug" in Scotrail's ticketing system which prevents advance issue of these tickets - the start date of the ticket always defaults to the day of purchase. Not a problem for Virgin, EC, Northern ticket offices though as I have successfully bought the same rover in advance from all those offices.

I have to agree that there should be either a PERTIS machine at all penalty fare stations, or at least a button on the TVM that gives a Pertis type Ticket where your intended ticket/destination/method of payment is not available.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

To quote from the authoritative document, the NRCOC:

3. Where the full range of tickets is not available
If you cannot buy an appropriate ticket for the journey you want to make because the range of tickets that is available at the station from which you intend to start your journey is restricted, you must buy a ticket or Permit to Travel before you travel that entitles you to make at least part of the journey. Then you must, as soon as is reasonably practicable, buy an appropriate ticket to complete your journey. In these circumstances, you only need to pay the fare that you would have paid if you had bought a ticket immediately before your journey. The price you will have to pay will be reduced by the amount paid for the ticket or Permit to Travel.

(Note that this applies with or without a PF area)

And that wording should be on or beside each TVM, so that passengers know exactly what to do - of course that wouldn't suit the likes of Northern, FCC, SWT at all!

 

[reb0118]

For reasons unbeknown to me, two part rover tickets seem to be impossible to buy from TVMs, on train or even from ticket machine equipped barrier staff.

I've never had a problem issuing two part rover tickets from my avantix.

What makes it worse, is that also for reasons I don't know there appears to be a "bug" in Scotrail's ticketing system which prevents advance issue of these tickets - the start date of the ticket always defaults to the day of purchase. Not a problem for Virgin, EC, Northern ticket offices though as I have successfully bought the same rover in advance from all those offices.

It was always the case that "Rover" style tickets were not to be issued in advance as there was a valid until date but not a valid from date. Therefore, in theory the Rover was valid from the date of issue. I am not sure if that is still the case but it may be the reason for your alleged "bug" above.

 

[wintonian]

And that wording should be on or beside each TVM, so that passengers know exactly what to do - of course that wouldn't suit the likes of Northern, FCC, SWT at all!

I'm not convinced that in PF areas you are required to buy a ticket for part of your journey (PERTIS excluded).

If you look at the wording on the PF notices displayed at stations you will this requirement is not mentioned. The only requirement that is mentioned for when the ticket office is closed and you cannot buy from the TVM is to use a PERTIS machine if one is available.

By mentioning the requirement to use a PERTIS if available and then omitting instruction on what to do if one is not available I would suggest that it is implied that you can board without a ticket in such circumstances.

Unfortunately I'm struggling to find one with a high enough resolution to read fully and I don't seem to have one myself.

 

[Goatboy]

Quite - it even says you MAY have to pay a Penalty Fare, not that you WILL.

 

[island]

I'm not convinced that in PF areas you are required to buy a ticket for part of your journey (PERTIS excluded).

If you look at the wording on the PF notices displayed at stations you will this requirement is not mentioned. The only requirement that is mentioned for when the ticket office is closed and you cannot buy from the TVM is to use a PERTIS machine if one is available.

The NRCoC makes it clear that it is a requirement to buy a ticket for part of your journey if the exact ticket isn't available.

The Penalty Fares rules do state that authorised collectors should show discretion in the event that the passenger could not get the desired ticket because the full range was not available, but on certain TOCs that may or may not run trains from Bedford to Brighton, that might be the discretion to prosecute you under the byelaws rather than the RoRA.

 

[323235]

In a situation such as Tiverton where a ticket is not available and Penalty Fares do not apply, then I would expect a word before boarding would be sufficient to buy a Rover or other unavailable ticket onboard, without the need to buy a fare to part exchange, which could end up costing time and effort posting via Royal Mail.

On First Capital Connect,Merseyrail,Southern and Southeastern where penalty fare schemes are in operation then part exchange is highly advised quite simply because you could end up having an RPI on your back and staff are more likely to be trained to do exchanges than an operator like Northern (area) where a guard/ticket clerk would be unlikely to want to do it simply because they would be unsure of the accountancy issues they would face with the company if they are down when cashing up.