DaySave Milton Keynes

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by Alex C., 19 Aug 2015.

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  1. Alex C.

    Alex C. Member

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    I'm getting a bit confused. I'm planning a daysave trip this week to explore some of the network I've not been on.

    On Saturday, I can find northbound trains to MKC quite easily, they are from East Croydon at 7 minutes past the hour and are marked as SN / Southern services. (e.g this service on RTT)

    However on the return journey, they are at 13 minutes past the hour but are marked as TL / Thameslink trains (the return service of the above is here on RTT).

    Given that a daysave is only valid on Southern services, does this mean I can use it to get to Milton Keynes but not back? I'm sure that can't be right but I don't want to risk a penalty fare!
     
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  3. PermitToTravel

    PermitToTravel Established Member

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    That's got to be wrong - they've always been Southern services!
     
  4. 455driver

    455driver Veteran Member

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    It seems my posts are not welcome!
     
    Last edited: 19 Aug 2015
  5. bb21

    bb21 Forum Staff Staff Member Global Moderator

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    It isn't. It has been a Southern service operated with Southern units throughout for as long as I can remember.
     
  6. GatwickDepress

    GatwickDepress Established Member

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    No, no Thameslink crew go near that service. It's operated by Southern throughout and always has/will be (to avoid the facetious, yes, excluding service cuts and TOC changes!). It looks like the wrong operator code has been used.
     
  7. Alex C.

    Alex C. Member

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    Thanks - I'll risk it then.

    I had this incredibly helpful reply on twitter - https://twitter.com/SouthernRailUK/status/633840490119626752?lang=en-gb

    I guess they mean station, but it doesn't answer my question even slightly!

    Edit - closer - they've now acknowledged it's their train:

    Of course, it's not today i looked at, it's Saturday (and they are showing as Thameslink every day) but I'll leave that for them to sort out.

    Thanks again :)
     
    Last edited: 19 Aug 2015
  8. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    They are definitely "pure" Southern services and definitely *not* Thameslink, nor joint operated with LM.
     
  9. Hadders

    Hadders Fares Advisor

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    But they are operated by Govia Thameslink Rail...
     
  10. crehld

    crehld Established Member Associate Staff Senior Fares Advisor

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    You won't be risking anything. I have used them many times from Milton Keynes without any problems whatsoever. The only issue you'll have is dealing with a puzzled LM revenue protection person on the barrier line at MKC, who will think they've not seen a DaySave before and study it very carefully before letting you through.
     
  11. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Unless we want to start the Gatwick Express debate again, that is of no significance here. This is a simple administrative error.
     
  12. yorkie

    yorkie Forum Staff Staff Member Administrator

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    The operator is Govia Thameslink Railway; that's the Train Company.

    However this Train Company is causing confusion by having multiple sub brands (which are not Train Companies).

    The NRCoC doesn't permit them to restrict tickets too just one brand; the NRCoC refers to Companies (though that could change to brands in future, I guess) however some may argue that Daysaves can have an exemption as they are promotional products, though I don't agree with this.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    No - read the NRCoC. What matters is the Company, not the sub-brand. It's not an "error" when some Abellio Greater Anglia trains are referred to as "Stansted Express" and tixkets marked AGA only remain valid

    This may be an error in terms of the branding being wrong but the fact is Condition 10 of the NRCoC refers to Companies, not brands. Maybe they can get away with it on a promotional fare but the problem won't go away ...
     
  13. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    With respect, that's "the Gatwick Express debate". This case refers to Southern branded services on which the OP wants to use a ticket intended for use on Southern branded services (regardless of whether the NRCoC may also make it valid on other services operated by GTR). The administrative error is these being in the TSDB as "Thameslink" services, which they aren't[1]. (I can assure the OP that the PIS announces them as Southern services, they are in Southern livery etc).

    [1] GTR is not presently a single entity as far as passenger-facing TOC names go, even if it legally is, IYSWIM.
     
  14. yorkie

    yorkie Forum Staff Staff Member Administrator

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    "Passenger facing TOC names"?! A TOC is a TOC.

    This sort of "error" has been made numerous times before and will be made numerous times in future as, at the end of the day, it is all one TOC so its easy to see how the wrong brand gets put into this system. The NRCoC doesn't have any provision for differential by brand, only by TOC. Call that what you want!

    In this case you can see clearly what the "error" is, but it will not always be clear to all passengers in all situations. The solution is not to muddy the waters by having separate brands!
     
  15. JB_B

    JB_B Member

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    I've had the same with DaySave at Milton Keynes - eventaully accepted after a long scrute.

    At Watford Junction I've been told "This ticket is not valid at this location."(!) but when I said "Yes, it is." they let me through.
     
  16. crehld

    crehld Established Member Associate Staff Senior Fares Advisor

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    Was prevented from leaving Watford Junction on a London Midland Great Escape once. Had to resort to barging past in the end!
     
  17. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    My experience of Watford Jn staff is not universally positive (though I know there's one that posts here who sounds like he is on the good side :) ), but even with that being the case I can't see any reason why they would think an LM rover ticket was not valid to exit an LM station having travelled on an LM train.
     
  18. crehld

    crehld Established Member Associate Staff Senior Fares Advisor

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    No nor could I, but they were remarkably stubborn on the matter!
     
  19. ashworth

    ashworth Established Member

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    I've had the same thing happen to me with a Daysave at Southampton.
     
  20. Peter Sarf

    Peter Sarf Established Member

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    Yes the service straying into London Midland territory (East Croydon etc to/from Milton Keynes) is Southern.

    I have noticed at Harrow and Wealdstone a tendency for the station information to deny the existence of the Southern services so be alert as the Southern service might not get announced very well.

    Of course do we still get Southern branded (or similar colour) units on the Thameslink route beyond Blackfriars :oops:.

    What chance do the passengers have if even the staff are confused.
     
  21. causton

    causton Established Member

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    Indeed, I was not able to book any Southern advances for Watford - Gatwick today as obviously there are no Southern services available, says the system!

    ...

    Of course it does not surprise me that tickets are rejected, however much we try and teach the agency staff what tickets are valid and which are not, however it is not very encouraging that I have had my own staff pass rejected at Harrow and Wealdstone as "this is a London Underground station" - despite the fact the pass works at Wembley Central barriers!
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    I think some Southern staff and Southern trains run the Thameslink branded service from Brighton to London Bridge. Which of course is not confusing at all :D
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    If anyone else gets any issues, ask them to buzz on the back window and ask the ticket office. Hopefully we will know more and can tell them to let you be free ;)
     
  22. Alex C.

    Alex C. Member

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    The original problem has been fixed - although from everything above I look forward to my attempts to use the ticket :)
     
  23. AndrewB

    AndrewB Member

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    Doe this mean a Thameslink only ticket from say London bridge to Brighton is valid on southern.
     
  24. Stats

    Stats Member

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    No. There are some posters on here that don't recognise the difference between the TOC name and the trading name. Southern has never been a TOC, just a trading name for Southern Railway Ltd and now Govia Thameslink Railway Ltd. The NRCoC recognise that TOCs operate under different trading names, and that GTR trading as Southern and GTR trading as Thameslink are different for the purposes of the CoC.
     
  25. bb21

    bb21 Forum Staff Staff Member Global Moderator

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    Not that can of worms again.

    Plenty of discussions on that topic with no consensus. Please draw your own conclusion once you have read these threads.
     
  26. yorkie

    yorkie Forum Staff Staff Member Administrator

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    Look at NRCoC Condition 10, and then consider what is a train company (ie, can a brand name such as Stansted Express be considered a "company") and draw your own conclusions as to whether or not [url="http://www.gtrailway.com/who-we-are/']Govia Thameslink Railway[/URL] is the largest train operating company in the UK and the legality of whether or not you think Condition 10 allows them to restrict by route brand or not.

    Clearly we have some people who have a very different conclusion to some other people but you make up your own mind and those of us who disagree will have to agree to disagree . There is surely no need for further discussion because we will just go round in circles with people disagreeing with others and people can make their own choices and conclusions with the available information.
     
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