DB BR 102--when can it start service it's a mystery

Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

43096

Established Member
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
7,418
No one have ideas when it will start service, it's a mystery due to several delays.........
You can blame Skoda as much as you like, but whoever went for this at DB needs shooting - it's entirely predictable. ČD's equivalent Class 380 locos are still troublesome and unreliable, which is why ČD have not only bought two secondhand Siemens ES64U4 locos from RTS in Austria but also leased 10 Vectrons for services into Germany that the 380s were intended for.

The short-term solution ought to be to refurbish the existing stock, and if DB Fernverkehr can't continue to provide the locos, then of course DB Regio already has some 230km/h locos that could do the job. Longer term perhaps they should look at refurbished ICE-2 sets when they are displaced.

I have heard a rumour that DB are considering cancelling the entire order with Skoda.

At least the Danes didn't make the same mistake with their tender for new electric locos. Despite a requirement for proven locos, Skoda bid: the order went to Siemens.
 

rg177

Established Member
Joined
22 Dec 2013
Messages
2,634
Location
Newcastle/Sheffield
I must admit that I'm not entirely impressed by the look of the new stock: Maybe that's because I really enjoy using the old stuff plying the route at the moment though as it's really quite comfortable!

I can't say I've had many issues with the ČD equivalents but the last one I used seemed to have some serious electrical supply issues as the carriages were in darkness for a good half hour. I'm personally surprised DB didn't just go for Vectrons instead.

Could be worse though, they could have ordered some regional versions of the IC2 stock which have had absolutely diabolical reliability when I've used them. One complete failure and two technical faults out of four journeys.
 

Richard Scott

Member
Joined
13 Dec 2018
Messages
693
I must admit that I'm not entirely impressed by the look of the new stock: Maybe that's because I really enjoy using the old stuff plying the route at the moment though as it's really quite comfortable!

I can't say I've had many issues with the ČD equivalents but the last one I used seemed to have some serious electrical supply issues as the carriages were in darkness for a good half hour. I'm personally surprised DB didn't just go for Vectrons instead.

Could be worse though, they could have ordered some regional versions of the IC2 stock which have had absolutely diabolical reliability when I've used them. One complete failure and two technical faults out of four journeys.
Were Vectrons even available to order at the time? Seem to remember this order was placed a number or years ago.
 
Last edited:

30907

Established Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
9,093
Location
Airedale
Thanks for the link. As I read the article (and from other German sources) the problem seems to be primarily with the trainsets and (inevitably?) the software, rather than the class 102 locos.
 

Stephen Lee

Member
Joined
7 Jul 2019
Messages
226
You can blame Skoda as much as you like, but whoever went for this at DB needs shooting - it's entirely predictable. ČD's equivalent Class 380 locos are still troublesome and unreliable, which is why ČD have not only bought two secondhand Siemens ES64U4 locos from RTS in Austria but also leased 10 Vectrons for services into Germany that the 380s were intended for.

The short-term solution ought to be to refurbish the existing stock, and if DB Fernverkehr can't continue to provide the locos, then of course DB Regio already has some 230km/h locos that could do the job. Longer term perhaps they should look at refurbished ICE-2 sets when they are displaced.

I have heard a rumour that DB are considering cancelling the entire order with Skoda.

At least the Danes didn't make the same mistake with their tender for new electric locos. Despite a requirement for proven locos, Skoda bid: the order went to Siemens.
Can ČD’s passenger division consider for TRAXX MS
 

43096

Established Member
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
7,418
Were Vectrons even available to order at the time? Seem to remember this order was placed a number or years ago.
The first production Vectrons were delivered in late 2012. Even if they weren’t available when ordered, Siemens would have had the ES64U4 as a current catalogue type so could have built those instead. Given that Siemens is “local manufacture” in München, the decision to go with Skoda is even more bizarre.

As I said earlier, they didn’t even need new locos as DB Regio own 25 ES64U2 locos, which are good for 230km/h.
 

Jamesrob637

Established Member
Joined
12 Aug 2016
Messages
2,088
Why didn't they just order some RailJets? 230kmh and a little more capacity than the current ex-IC sets. I would have had six second class coaches with a little luggage space at each end (take out one row of seats) and the seventh carriage nearest the loco half cafe bar and half first class. The current sets only have a very minimal first class (comfy as it is though!)
 

43096

Established Member
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
7,418
Why didn't they just order some RailJets? 230kmh and a little more capacity than the current ex-IC sets. I would have had six second class coaches with a little luggage space at each end (take out one row of seats) and the seventh carriage nearest the loco half cafe bar and half first class. The current sets only have a very minimal first class (comfy as it is though!)
Indeed, that would be a practical option. DB seems to be infected with what Roger Ford called “Old Railway Procurement Disorder” where the desire for something new yet unproven outweighs the proven in-service offering. I’ll bet that the new Talgo stuff DB Fernverkehr has on order (including locos/power cars) will turn out to be a similar fiasco.
 

Jamesrob637

Established Member
Joined
12 Aug 2016
Messages
2,088
Indeed, that would be a practical option. DB seems to be infected with what Roger Ford called “Old Railway Procurement Disorder” where the desire for something new yet unproven outweighs the proven in-service offering. I’ll bet that the new Talgo stuff DB Fernverkehr has on order (including locos/power cars) will turn out to be a similar fiasco.
A RailJet might not sit well with the idea of Regional tickets being valid. The RJ is a very classy product. It was launched in 2008 (December timetable change I think, so only very back end of the year) but even had it only been launched 2 or 3 years ago it wouldn't have looked outdated in the slightest. The Skoda product looks quite cheap in comparison, not so much a criticism though as much as an observation.
 

43096

Established Member
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
7,418
A RailJet might not sit well with the idea of Regional tickets being valid. The RJ is a very classy product. It was launched in 2008 (December timetable change I think, so only very back end of the year) but even had it only been launched 2 or 3 years ago it wouldn't have looked outdated in the slightest. The Skoda product looks quite cheap in comparison, not so much a criticism though as much as an observation.
Like any other stock, RailJet is a coach design and you can put in it what you want in terms of interior. The key point is it is a proven 230km/h coach design - which is what is required.
 

paul_munich

Member
Joined
23 Dec 2019
Messages
12
Location
Munich
you can board the new Skoda dostos in two rows at each of the two doors per car, it's significantly faster then a RJ (viaggio comfort)

does anyone knows what the problem is? nearly all sources say, that the EBA (?british office of rail and road?) granted an authorisation but DB is, for whatever reason, refusing to put them in service...
 

MarcVD

Member
Joined
23 Aug 2016
Messages
644
Why didn't they just order some RailJets? 230kmh and a little more capacity than the current ex-IC sets...
Companies like DB must maintain a sensible multivendor purchasing strategy, otherwise they won't keep good prices. Ordering from Skoda was probably a message to Siemens, "keep your prices reasonable otherwise we will purchase elsewhere"...
US railways in the 70ies kept purchasing locos from GE even knowing that their products were notoriously inferior to those from GM, just to ensure GE would stay in business, otherwise they would end up purchasing from a monopoly, never a good thing. Most probably we have something similar here.
 

43096

Established Member
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
7,418
Companies like DB must maintain a sensible multivendor purchasing strategy, otherwise they won't keep good prices. Ordering from Skoda was probably a message to Siemens, "keep your prices reasonable otherwise we will purchase elsewhere"...
US railways in the 70ies kept purchasing locos from GE even knowing that their products were notoriously inferior to those from GM, just to ensure GE would stay in business, otherwise they would end up purchasing from a monopoly, never a good thing. Most probably we have something similar here.
It's not the same at all. If DB want alternatives they have Siemens and Bombardier. Going to Skoda was frankly completely bonkers and the fiasco that has followed was totally predictable.
 

JonathanP

Member
Joined
1 Aug 2008
Messages
228
Location
Berlin, Germany
Whilst I personally am in favour of awarding all rolling stock procurements contracts to Siemens, another factor to consider is that they if they were to bid for and win every contract, delivery would be delayed anyway due to lack of construction capacity.

Even the bodyshell construction for the Siemens ICE4 fleet was subcontracted to(and subsequently screwed up by) Bombardier.
 

popeter45

Member
Joined
7 Dec 2019
Messages
230
Location
london
CityNightLine also used Talgo sets in the past so not that strange to see Talgo sets being bought
the loco will be interesting too see how that pans out but if it does like the skoda units DSB are planning on pairing there talgo sets with vectrons so DB could always fall back to them
 

43096

Established Member
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
7,418
Talgo do at least have experience producing rolling stock for the German market. RZD didn't seem to have major problems authorising their Talgo sets for Germany.
Given that one of the first uses is planned to be the Berlin-Amsterdam service with the need for acceptance under different signalling and electrification systems, I'm afraid I have little confidence.
 

Royston Vasey

Established Member
Joined
14 May 2008
Messages
1,575
Location
Cambridge
A RailJet might not sit well with the idea of Regional tickets being valid. The RJ is a very classy product. It was launched in 2008 (December timetable change I think, so only very back end of the year) but even had it only been launched 2 or 3 years ago it wouldn't have looked outdated in the slightest. The Skoda product looks quite cheap in comparison, not so much a criticism though as much as an observation.
It is a great product (same standard seats as FGW put in the HSTs) but I've taken the ten minute trip on the RJ from Bruck/Mur to Leoben and back on an €4.70 ticket interavailable with not only IC and RE but also S-bahn and the local bus!
 
Last edited:

XAM2175

Member
Joined
8 Jun 2016
Messages
42
Location
Glasgow
If DB want alternatives they have Siemens and Bombardier. Going to Skoda was frankly completely bonkers and the fiasco that has followed was totally predictable.
The article linked in the opening post does note that DB has ended up in disputes with Siemens, Bombardier, and Alstom over all sorts of matters going back quite a while now, so dropping a token order on Skoda wasn't an unreasonable thing to do - but obviously when they asked themselves "how bad can they be?" they weren't expecting the answer to be quite this dire!

And anyway the new 30-unit ICE order has gone to Siemens so that'll distract everybody :lol:
 

James James

Member
Joined
29 Jan 2018
Messages
305
Why didn't they just order some RailJets? 230kmh and a little more capacity than the current ex-IC sets. I would have had six second class coaches with a little luggage space at each end (take out one row of seats) and the seventh carriage nearest the loco half cafe bar and half first class. The current sets only have a very minimal first class (comfy as it is though!)
They needed a train that can fit a certain capacity in a limited platform length. (Apparently they have to lock out some coaches for part of the journey nowadays when extending the train for peak hours.) That requires a double deck.

In hindsight might have been better to ask Bombardier to deliver a 200km/h version of the IC2 (that would've ended up being delayed though), or similar with a Stadler Dosto (which they ended up buying second hand for other routes anyway).
 

43096

Established Member
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
7,418
They needed a train that can fit a certain capacity in a limited platform length. (Apparently they have to lock out some coaches for part of the journey nowadays when extending the train for peak hours.) That requires a double deck.

In hindsight might have been better to ask Bombardier to deliver a 200km/h version of the IC2 (that would've ended up being delayed though), or similar with a Stadler Dosto (which they ended up buying second hand for other routes anyway).
If they need the double deckers for capacity then the only option is Stadler's KISS double deck as they are 200km/h capable. Bombardier don't have anything that meets the requirement.
 

Richard Scott

Member
Joined
13 Dec 2018
Messages
693
If they need the double deckers for capacity then the only option is Stadler's KISS double deck as they are 200km/h capable. Bombardier don't have anything that meets the requirement.
Oh please no. Awful things, one on delivery had an accident and front coach completely destroyed. Wouldn't go on one of those at 100km/h let alone 200km/h.
 

Top