DB KISS to be upgraded for a new DB connection.

[Stephen Lee]

I wondered what will the new DB connection be, is it the Stuttgart-Singen-Zurich service?

 

[Richard Scott]

I wondered what will the new DB connection be, is it the Stuttgart-Singen-Zurich service?

Whatever it is it'll be avoided!!!

 

[JonathanP]

I wondered what will the new DB connection be, is it the Stuttgart-Singen-Zurich service?

It is.
It seems that WESTBahn had a fleet of 4-Car KISS units which are already in use on the Dresden - Rostock services. DB will now take over the 6-Car KISS fleet too, which represents entire current WESTBahn fleet. In order that they can still operate a train service, they will buy... more new KISS units from Stadler. Presumably this game of musical chairs makes sense to someone somewhere.

Whatever it is it'll be avoided!!!

Yes, it's not hauled, but personally I find the regional KISS units pleasant to travel on, with much lower vibration and noise levels on the upper deck than you would get on a single deck low floor EMU.

 

[rg177]

How have they been fairing so far with DB, reliability-wise, versus the likes of the IC2 which has been catastrophically bad from my own experience?

I travelled on one of the 6-car units back in 2018 on WestBahn and found them to be pleasant enough.

 

[Stephen Lee]

It is.
It seems that WESTBahn had a fleet of 4-Car KISS units which are already in use on the Dresden - Rostock services. DB will now take over the 6-Car KISS fleet too, which represents entire current WESTBahn fleet. In order that they can still operate a train service, they will buy... more new KISS units from Stadler. Presumably this game of musical chairs makes sense to someone somewhere.


Yes, it's not hauled, but personally I find the regional KISS units pleasant to travel on, with much lower vibration and noise levels on the upper deck than you would get on a single deck low floor EMU.

what about Dresden - Rostock services ? what they are using to cascade the KISS? ICE-4?

 

[Aictos]

It is.
It seems that WESTBahn had a fleet of 4-Car KISS units which are already in use on the Dresden - Rostock services. DB will now take over the 6-Car KISS fleet too, which represents entire current WESTBahn fleet. In order that they can still operate a train service, they will buy... more new KISS units from Stadler. Presumably this game of musical chairs makes sense to someone somewhere.


Yes, it's not hauled, but personally I find the regional KISS units pleasant to travel on, with much lower vibration and noise levels on the upper deck than you would get on a single deck low floor EMU.

I've used both the ODEG and the DB Regio KISS trains in the Berlin area and I agree that they are quite pleasant to use, mind you I always prefer to travel on the upper deck so no idea what the lower deck is like.

 

[JonathanP]

There is no cascade. The article headline and photo is a bit misleading, but then it is just a headline.

The KISS running the Dresden - Rostock services are 4-car units. These extra ones are a completely seperate fleet of 6-car units which just happen to have come from the same source - they are being purchased and upgraded.

 

[superalbs]

There is no cascade. The article headline and photo is a bit misleading, but then it is just a headline.

The KISS running the Dresden - Rostock services are 4-car units. These extra ones are a completely seperate fleet of 6-car units which just happen to have come from the same source - they are being purchased and upgraded.

Upgraded, as in, they're actually going to refurbish them?

 

[Austriantrain]

It is.
It seems that WESTBahn had a fleet of 4-Car KISS units which are already in use on the Dresden - Rostock services. DB will now take over the 6-Car KISS fleet too, which represents entire current WESTBahn fleet. In order that they can still operate a train service, they will buy... more new KISS units from Stadler. Presumably this game of musical chairs makes sense to someone somewhere.

It does, somehow. WESTbahn bought their units, got into financial difficulties by overextending (the second series of KISS was too much), needed to support their balance sheet and gain Cashflow and thus sold their trains. Their new trains will be leased.

 

[30907]

WESTbahn ...their new trains will be leased.

...AIUI at considerably more favourable rates than a few years ago too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

...AIUI at considerably more favourable rates than a few years ago too.

This does seem to be in some ways a bit like the 350/2s, i.e.:

TOC: Can we have them for cheaper please?
Finance co: No
TOC: Right, we'll go elsewhere then

This is the only reason I know of that these perfectly good units are being replaced at LNR.

 

[Austriantrain]

...AIUI at considerably more favourable rates than a few years ago too.

And DB was in urgent need of Intercity trains, so they probably mind too much about their price (of course, that was a year before Covid...not so urgent now).

In any case, WESTbahn ordered almost as many sets as they had before starting to sell them, and the train offer they had then was way too frequent for the number of passengers they managed to attract. So let’s see how it goes second time round (of course, COVID doesn’t make it easer for an open-access operator, even though they currently are in an emergency PSO with taxpayers stepping in).

 

[Stephen Lee]

what about Dresden - Rostock services ? what they are using to cascade the KISS? ICE-4?

or maybe IC2 BBD?

 

[Austriantrain]

or maybe IC2 BBD?

They won’t need all the ex-WESTbahn KISS for Stuttgart- Zürich. However, I don’t know of they will continue to use them on Rostock - Dresden or elsewhere - it would make sense to have this small fleet of trains based in one single region.

 

[Stephen Lee]

sorry for off-topic, I wondered if Stadler EC250 enables multiple working with FLIRT/KISS?

 

[JonathanP]

That that would either be desired or possible is highly unlikely.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

Mdr reports that there are plans to run some Rostock - Dresden trains through to Chemnitz. Good idea, the last IC trains called there in 2006

 

[AverageTD]

Mdr reports that there are plans to run some Rostock - Dresden trains through to Chemnitz. Good idea, the last IC trains called there in 2006

So actually using the IC2s for their purpose of giving non IC stations an IC service, good stuff! Or in this case, returning to the original

 

[Bletchleyite]

So actually using the IC2s for their purpose of giving non IC stations an IC service, good stuff! Or in this case, returning to the original

I think IC is now basically what IR used to be, and in some cases is little more than RE other than for the funding model - hence these very much regional coaches on it. ICE has taken over its real role.

 

[JonathanP]

According to the report this will not be a commercial service. Saxony will tender for an operator to run a subsidised service from Chemnitz to Dresden which continues directly to Berlin and Rostock. DB FV will obviously win because they are the only operator running between Dresden and Rostock. This model is used elsewhere already in Germany, notably to Emden, and is recognizable by the acceptance of regional-only tickets on the subsidised section.

I'm glad that's it hapenning, but I guess a sceptic would say it is a 'vanity Intercity' service and that DB must be rubbing their hands with glee at getting public subsidy without having to take part in a genuine competitive tender process.

 

[Austriantrain]

„Eisenbahn-Revue International“ 3/2021 has additional information.

The ex-WESTbahn 4-car sets Class 4110 will not be lengthened to 6 cars. The original plans have turned out as too expensive and DB sees their capacity as sufficient for Rostock - Dresden. From which I would infer that these sets will stay there whereas the eight 6-car-sets yet to come will serve Stuttgart - Zürich (On the current timetable, 7 sets would be needed for an hourly service and a quick turnaround at Zürich with an almost hour-long layover at Stuttgart).

Once Stuttgart21 opens, I suspect timetables will change. The (long-Term) Deutschlandtakt plans have this line as running through to Nürnberg. The magazine does not rule out return of IC2 sets once they are approved for Switzerland and sufficiently reliable.

 

[30907]

Mdr reports that there are plans to run some Rostock - Dresden trains through to Chemnitz. Good idea, the last IC trains called there in 2006

Just to clarify, the proposal is for trains "early morning and evening" - in other words the classic marginal-time working; as 3 sets stable in Dresden overnight, they might even run to two each way (0615/0815 ish from Chemnitz, back there at 1945/2145).