DB London service now in (even more) doubt...

[blackfive460]

From Railnews:

GERMAN state-owned operator Deutsche Bahn has signalled that its plans to run trains between London and Germany have been placed on hold and may be abandoned, following continuing problems with rolling stock certification which have delayed rolling stock deliveries from Siemens.

Complete article:
http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2014/02/19-db-puts-london-plans-on.html

Can't say I'm all that surprised...

 

[williamn]

shame, Eurostar desperately need some competition!

 

[Bayum]

What are the problems DB are running up against?

If Eurostar were able to get their E320 sets certified for safety and the like, why are DB having such trouble with a similar train?

 

[DownSouth]

The Velaro e320 is also having problems with a lengthy gestation, and it basically looks like both will be able to eventually enter service around the same time. The thing is that it is in the best interests of Eurostar to put that off for as long as possible, for them it's far more lucrative to have just the TGV-TMST sets and maintaining a monopoly - the only thing worse than competition from DB would be the UK acceding to the Schengen Treaty and allowing new operators to treat cross-channel services like trains instead of the plane-on-rails model of Eurostar.

 

[gordonthemoron]

I thought the reason was that DB were short of ICEs and were planning on using Velaro-Ds on domestic services? Makes more sense to run them full in Germany than half empty to London

 

[TheKnightWho]

The Velaro e320 is also having problems with a lengthy gestation, and it basically looks like both will be able to eventually enter service around the same time. The thing is that it is in the best interests of Eurostar to put that off for as long as possible, for them it's far more lucrative to have just the TGV-TMST sets and maintaining a monopoly - the only thing worse than competition from DB would be the UK acceding to the Schengen Treaty and allowing new operators to treat cross-channel services like trains instead of the plane-on-rails model of Eurostar.

Which will, of course, never happen. Because the Muslim, homosexual, terrorist Bulgamanians will overrun us all if the Border Agency so much as let their guard down for a second.

 

[Oscar]

shame, Eurostar desperately need some competition!

I don't think Eurostar necessarily needs competition, but rather than UK Government needs to reconsider its border and security arrangements and access charges need to go down. We need new local services which primarily complement rather than compete with Eurostar. Eurostar needs to be forced to work much more closely with other operators to improve timetable and fare integration and run through services where appropriate. My fear is that the competition DB would offer would simply duplicate the airline-style service.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

It would be a great shame if DB can't come through to London.

Although I only read a few days ago that Eurostar may be running through to Amsterdam, Koln & Geneva, although I don't know how true any of that is? (Koln & Geneva would make very good connecting points and more convenient that Paris where you have to change stations for most onward destinations, I presume at Geneva they would stop at the SNCF part of the station and passengers just walk through to the Swiss part via customs like at Basel)

 

[kylemore]

What incentive now for Eurostar to innovate?

Just put in the minimum effort (relatively speaking) as before.

The Tunnel has proved to be a huge dissapointment as far as the development of passenger rail services is concerned and indeed of through freight services.

Huge potential barely exploited, and there does'nt seem to be the political will to do anything about it, in fact the opposite appears to be the case.

 

[Manchester77]

What incentive now for Eurostar to innovate?

Just put in the minimum effort (relatively speaking) as before.

The Tunnel has proved to be a huge dissapointment as far as the development of passenger rail services is concerned and indeed of through freight services.

Huge potential barely exploited, and there does'nt seem to be the political will to do anything about it, in fact the opposite appears to be the case.

Quite I was hoping that by now I could get a train to most places in Europe which is what it felt like to me when it was being built! It would be good to see an expanded market however competition on some routes would be good since it would hopefully drive some fares down.

The conservatives wouldn't sign the Schengen in fear that they'd loose too many supporters to bongo bongo land fears, gay weather reporting UKIP. It would be good if it was signed since it would hopefully irradiate flights between the uk and some European cities.

 

[BananaRepublic]

Huge potential barely exploited, and there does'nt seem to be the political will to do anything about it, in fact the opposite appears to be the case.

What would political will do for tunnel traffic?
The market has shown how much capacity it wishes to use, so what would you expect politicians to do?
Eurostar will be adding extra capacity on the Paris route and plan to add other destinations, but it's never going to be more than a modest number of services beyond the near cities of Paris and Brussels. Hence the lack of fervour to get competing services started.

Freight is another matter though and there is plenty of potential to exploit there. It will depend on EuroTunnel's ability to reduce its charges, bearing in mind that it's a commercial operator at the end of the day.

The conservatives wouldn't sign the Schengen in fear that they'd loose too many supporters to bongo bongo land fears, gay weather reporting UKIP. It would be good if it was signed since it would hopefully irradiate flights between the uk and some European cities.

The odds of the UK signing Schengen, are about the same as those for the Moon leaving Earth's orbit and going off for a holiday around Alpha Centauri.
Despite the Daily Fail type scaremongering, there are quite valid and solid reasons for keeping our border controls.
The issues behind those reasons will not evaporate any time soon.

 

[kylemore]

What would political will do for tunnel traffic?

Well it was political will that brought the thing into existence in the first place!

A severe word from Cameron to the Home Office and from Merkel to DB and the services would be up and running in no time.

As to the "Market" are there no planes flying between London and Frankfurt or Koeln or Amsterdam?

 

[cgcenet]

What would political will do for tunnel traffic?
The market has shown how much capacity it wishes to use, so what would you expect politicians to do?

It's politicians who have made it as difficult as it is to increase usage of the Channel Tunnel. The UK's non-membership of Schengen, with the resulting security theatre and prohibition on cross-Channel trains carrying UK domestic passengers, is not the only reason why it's difficult. There is also the excessive safety regulations, so that every passenger train running through the CT has to be as long as Eurostar trains currently are, and built to a particular very stringent standard. [This would make it especially difficult to run a Metro-type service as mentioned in the other thread.] But what's the reason for these extreme safety rules? It's just another rail tunnel. I see no earthly reason in principle why (say) 3-car commuter-type trains could not be run through it, as they do in other long rail tunnels in mainland Europe.

It will depend on EuroTunnel's ability to reduce its charges,

Eurotunnel's exorbitant track access fees are another reason why new passenger train services might not be commercially viable.

bearing in mind that it's a commercial operator at the
end of the day.

It's a private monopoly running a piece of fundamental infrastructure. You refer to the "market" as if it were a "free-for-all" for starting new passenger rail services through the Channel Tunnel, and the only reason they haven't is insufficient demand. Well it is not a free-for-all: over-regulation and monopoly access charges make passenger rail services through the CT intrinsically much less viable than those on overland rail lines of comparable distance and speed. Until this changes, unfortunately the only type of service that's ever likely to be viable are airline-like services mostly between the 3 major capitals near the Channel.

The odds of the UK signing Schengen, are about the same as those for the Moon leaving Earth's orbit and going off for a holiday around Alpha Centauri.

Sadly I agree with you on this, but not with your assessment on the vailidity of objections.
But even if the UK does not join the Schengen zone, we should dismantle the security theatre and have border checking done on the train, as was done in pre-Schengen Europe.

 

[RT4038]

I am sure we could have Border checks done on the train, if the train company was prepared to pay for it. But this would render the service uneconomic. Currently, on the Paris service, there are about 4 members of the UKBA stationed at Paris Nord to check passports of one, sometimes two, trains per hour. Two 8 hour shifts, x 4 staff members = 8 staff members to check about 16 departures per day. Any passengers without correct travel documents are refused travel and remain in France. Contrast this with the costs of checking documents in the train: each train journey takes about 2.5hrs, so one round trip of UKBA officials (travelling passenger on the outward and say an hours layover in case of delays) would occupy a complete shift. Would 4 staff members be sufficient to check passports and deal with, and secure, people [ how many, could be as many as 15 on a single trip?] who do not have the correct documents. Just say 4 is sufficient per train, x 16 trains = 64 staff members. Plus staff at St. Pancras to detain those without correct documents and ensure they are kept secure and returned. Plus deal with the problems of those who destroy their documents and are not then accepted back into France. Airlines have to pay a large fine (as well as accept responsibility for return) of anyone who arrives in UK without correct documents, hence their checks of the documents on check in. Airlines do not usually mix Domestic and International passengers on the same plane, and in those rare circumstances where this may happen, seat occupation is much more rigidly applied. The railway industry would be subjected to similar rules.

Whilst a short local may require fewer UKBA staff due to the shorter journey (say 1hr Calais Frethun - Ashford) meaning each crew could do 2 or possibly 3 round trips in a shift, detention facilities would also be required at Ashford, and a holding cell provided on the train. (I believe Eurostar trains have this facility?). I doubt a short local train would be seen as an efficient use of a tunnel path, and would be very expensive on an access charge per seat basis. Additionally there are different, more onerous, rules regarding subsidisation of International train services, one of the reasons for their gradual reduction all over the EU.

Whatever is thought about Schengen, there are many deep issues and it looks unlikely that the UK will join soon. (What Politician is going to vote for this and run the risk of wrath over immigration issues? - certainly not until there is a real economic argument for it; cross channel local trains are not going to do this!). It looks like that until Britain joins Schengen, local cross-channel trains are unlikely.

 

[Taunton]

The Tunnel has proved to be a huge dissapointment as far as the development of passenger rail services is concerned and indeed of through freight services.

This is very true. Even the car shuttles, promised as a "turn up and go" operation, ended up as the opposite, with restrictive reservation routines. Even the onetime approach of "turn up around your reservation time, and we'll put you on the next one" has gone, with regular cancellations to ensure high loads. I wonder what their PPM measure would be.

The amount of wasted infrastructure around (Waterloo and Stratford abandoned, Ebbsfleet mostly a ghost town, Ashford effectively given up) all had to be paid for somehow.

I do understand that effective border controls are needed, it now being effectively legally impossible to return anyone once they hit UK soil, and there have been all sorts of fiddles done in the past, but the actual way the checks are done could be much more effective than currently. Part of the issue is infrequent but huge trains leads to very wasteful staffing requirements at the terminals.

 

[ModernRailways]

Couldn't all border controls be done over here in St Pancras/Ashford etc. as per the trains from Brussels currently?

Eurostar should have cheaper walk up fares, I've made up some, which are unlikely ever happen but one can dream:
£50 - Single - London to Paris - Standard Class - One piece of hand luggage.
£60 - Single - London to Brussels - Standard Class - One piece of hand luggage.
£75 - Single - London to Paris - Standard Premier Class - One piece of hand luggage.
£80 - Single - London to Brussels - Standard Premier Class - One piece of hand luggage.
£150 - Single - London to Paris - Business Premier Class - One piece of hand luggage.
£150 - Single - London to Brussels - Business Premier Class - One piece of hand luggage.

If you need to take a suitcase then you will be charged an additional £10. Bags over certain size not allowed. Save £10 if you are making a return journey. And, a frequent travellers program.

 

[Max]

Couldn't all border controls be done over here in St Pancras/Ashford etc. as per the trains from Brussels currently?

Eurostar should have cheaper walk up fares, I've made up some, which are unlikely ever happen but one can dream:
£50 - Single - London to Paris - Standard Class - One piece of hand luggage.
£60 - Single - London to Brussels - Standard Class - One piece of hand luggage.
£75 - Single - London to Paris - Standard Premier Class - One piece of hand luggage.
£80 - Single - London to Brussels - Standard Premier Class - One piece of hand luggage.
£150 - Single - London to Paris - Business Premier Class - One piece of hand luggage.
£150 - Single - London to Brussels - Business Premier Class - One piece of hand luggage.

If you need to take a suitcase then you will be charged an additional £10. Bags over certain size not allowed. Save £10 if you are making a return journey. And, a frequent travellers program.

With all due respect, what more are these figures than numbers out of the air? Also, one of the major pulls for me for travelling by train to Italy last year was the generous luggage allowance on Eurostar. Had I needed to pay extra, I would almost certainly have flown.

 

[edwin_m]

The conservatives wouldn't sign the Schengen in fear that they'd loose too many supporters to bongo bongo land fears, gay weather reporting UKIP. It would be good if it was signed since it would hopefully irradiate flights between the uk and some European cities.

Irradiation of flights is one of the things airport security is there to prevent!

 

[gordonthemoron]

what is E* load factor? Are they jacking up prices by restricting supply?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Virtually every Eurostar I've been on in the last 3 - 4 years has been more or less full.

 

[transmanche]

I do understand that effective border controls are needed, it now being effectively legally impossible to return anyone once they hit UK soil

That's not the case. Certain newspapers and politicians would like you to believe that it's true - but it isn't.

In 2011, over 41,000 people were removed from the UK.

That figure does not include those who were refused entry at the UK Border.

 

[TheKnightWho]

That's not the case. Certain newspapers and politicians would like you to believe that it's true - but it isn't.

In 2011, over 41,000 people were removed from the UK.

That figure does not include those who were refused entry at the UK Border.

It also wouldn't prevent the Border Agency from diverting a lot of their resources to people who have stayed here too long, rather than stopping people getting in in the first place. In return, we'd have far more convenient travel to the continent. As much as people would like to think to the contrary, it's not that hard to find people who are here illegally - there are only so many places they can hide.

Schengen does not mean freedom to move somewhere in Europe forever, as you still need documents to work, live somewhere for longer than 3 months etc. Of course, the Daily Mail would like people to believe that it would just be open borders with no chance of removing anyone, because scaremongering like that sells papers.

 

[ModernRailways]

With all due respect, what more are these figures than numbers out of the air? Also, one of the major pulls for me for travelling by train to Italy last year was the generous luggage allowance on Eurostar. Had I needed to pay extra, I would almost certainly have flown.

My experience. During the week when I've travelled - seven times now - there are a lot of business people. Those fares would simply be walk up fares, so a last minute sort of thing. You could still book online and get the current baggage limit and a cheaper price. These prices could even be kept hidden so only those who need/want to know about them know about them. Most leisure travellers will book a while in advance, business people however may need to attend an Urgent meeting in Paris or Brussels where they would only take a small bag.

The amount would probably have to be different and they were just kind of plucked from the air going by my experience with E*.

 

[Manchester77]

Irradiation of flights is one of the things airport security is there to prevent!

Oops typo there

Meant to be Eradicate. And I meant the market not the flights themselves

 

[Chris999999]

These prices could even be kept hidden so only those who need/want to know about them know about them. .

This will work how, exactly?

 

[leytongabriel]

So has the 'International' finally fallen off Sratford?

 

[ModernRailways]

This will work how, exactly?

No advertising of them. Advertise them to businesses but not to the general public. Anyone can buy them but they need to be aware of them. Quite similar to how rovers are done in the UK currently. Hardly advertised, but are available at the ticket office.

 

[RT4038]

It also wouldn't prevent the Border Agency from diverting a lot of their resources to people who have stayed here too long, rather than stopping people getting in in the first place. In return, we'd have far more convenient travel to the continent. As much as people would like to think to the contrary, it's not that hard to find people who are here illegally - there are only so many places they can hide.

Schengen does not mean freedom to move somewhere in Europe forever, as you still need documents to work, live somewhere for longer than 3 months etc. Of course, the Daily Mail would like people to believe that it would just be open borders with no chance of removing anyone, because scaremongering like that sells papers.

It may well be that some can be removed, no doubt at great expense to taxpayers. Whatever your thoughts on Schengen, I think it is true to say that immigration is a fairly hot political topic at the moment and it will be a brave politician to propose relaxing the current system. I guess that the majority mood in the country at present is for a further tightening. I don't think 'far more convenient travel to the continent' is a priority, much as I would like it. No-one need order any Cross Channel suburban trains yet!

 

[Chris999999]

No advertising of them. Advertise them to businesses but not to the general public. Anyone can buy them but they need to be aware of them.

Quite clearly you have a future with Ryanair.

You don't say how much the standing only tickets would cost

Would the toilet doors take credit cards, or would people without the correct coins have to cross their legs until arrival?

 

[transmanche]

It may well be that some can be removed, no doubt at great expense to taxpayers. Whatever your thoughts on Schengen, I think it is true to say that immigration is a fairly hot political topic at the moment and it will be a brave politician to propose relaxing the current system. I guess that the majority mood in the country at present is for a further tightening.

"No doubt at great expense"? "Immigration is a hot topic"?

This post seems to demonstrate the success of the xenophobic campaign undertaken by certain sections of the media.