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DB London service now in (even more) doubt...

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MarkyT

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. . . Two 8 hour shifts, x 4 staff members = 8 staff members to check about 16 departures per day. . .

That's very interesting, conclusively demonstrating that pre-boarding inspections are more practical and economic than British officials performing the operation on the train.

Many complain about Eurostar running like an airline on rails, however there is one thing that airlines in the air manage to do that is seemingly beyond Eurostar and the other potential international rail operators (clearly not neccessarily their fault), that is operate services to London from many different Shengen airports without having UK officials carry out passport checks at each European embarkation point. If a rail operator takes reasonable steps to screen passengers on boarding and is then obliged to carry back anyone rejected by incoming immigration checks at London, how is that rail situation any different in principle from the air and why do such diffferent rules apply. I must admit I haven't flown to or from Europe for YEARS so I have no recent personal experience and I could be completely wrong however I doubt that every Shengen airport with a flight to London carries a full compliment of UK Border Agency staff. Why should a rail operation be any different, assuming terminal security was at a similar level to that at airports. I understand on long routes carrying people between Shengen stations on the continent before going on to London could still cause problems, although that might be addressed by asking such travellers to pass through the same security with ID documents backed up in the conditions of carriage by a stiff full fare back if they fraudulently attempt to use such access to get to London. There might be an argument that such restrictions would be unacceptable within Shengen, but these would be additional trains on routes which other services ply so it should be possible to choose to wait for a later mainland only non controlled train or catch the earlier controlled one.
 
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ModernRailways

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Quite clearly you have a future with Ryanair.

You don't say how much the standing only tickets would cost

Would the toilet doors take credit cards, or would people without the correct coins have to cross their legs until arrival?

Or maybe just making a suggestion? I can buy a ticket on a plane for travel tomorrow (26/02) for £175 on British Airways which includes food and drink as standard. On E* it's at best £200 and that is travelling at times which would be rather bad if you had a meeting. Train should be cheaper, much cheaper. Those who want too can buy a normal advance ticket like normal but others can buy a flexible ticket if they so desire. It would still be £100 for a return journey in Standard and obviously those fares could be higher I am no businessman!

Right now if I wanted to go to Leeds tomorrow it is £55.60 return, if I buy the North East Round Robin rover it would only be £46.00. Both tickets do the same journey and the rover even allows me to go further. A similar thing can be in place on Eurostar, advances will generally be cheaper, but eventually you could end up paying more than need be.
 

DownSouth

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Remember, when you pay for a Eurostar ticket you are paying off the construction of two megaprojects as well as the ride.
 

D1009

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Additionally there are different, more onerous, rules regarding subsidisation of International train services, one of the reasons for their gradual reduction all over the EU.
Do you have any figures to prove there is a gradual reduction of international train services all over the EU? My perception is that the opposite is the case, with TGVs running to Germany and the recent development of the OeBB Railjet network to take just 2 examples.
 

gordonthemoron

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Well, Westbahn have stopped cross border services to Freilassing (Wien-Salzburg only now). However Meridian have doubled the number of Munich-Salzburg/Kufstein services so swings and roundabouts. There are some pretty poor cross border services in some places though, especially in the baltic States
 

TheKnightWho

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"No doubt at great expense"? "Immigration is a hot topic"?

This post seems to demonstrate the success of the xenophobic campaign undertaken by certain sections of the media. :(

Exactly. If someone is caught breaching the rules of the Schengen agreement they can be removed swiftly and without issue. This is already the case on the continent, and it's not like it couldn't be the same here as well.
 

cgcenet

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Airlines do not usually mix Domestic and International passengers on the same plane
This is because unlike trains, planes don't generally pick up and set down passengers en route (except on the longest routes). For trains, it is an efficient way of serving multiple communities with the same service. For planes, the cost of multiple landings (both in time and resources) would make this wasteful. The imposition of airport-like security theatre on cross-Channel trains (yes, I understand it's not exactly the same) forces these to be more like planes. There can be no doubt that preventing cross-Channel trains from carrying domestic UK passengers is a major factor in so few of them stopping at Ashford; it is also why there are no trains between the north and west of the UK and mainland Europe (when such trains were originally planned).
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That's very interesting, conclusively demonstrating that pre-boarding inspections are more practical and economic than British officials performing the operation on the train.
Perhaps, but train services across controlled borders elsewhere generally have border checks performed on the train (or at the border station). It's not clear why it should be possible there but not here.

There might be an argument that such restrictions would be unacceptable within Shengen, but these would be additional trains on routes which other services ply so it should be possible to choose to wait for a later mainland only non controlled train or catch the earlier controlled one.

On the main route where this is an issue, Lille–Brussels, about half the through trains are Eurostars, the rest TGV. These are timed to complement each other (to the extent that the timings are organised at all). If you need to travel to from Lille to Brussels in the evening, for example, you have to take a Eurostar: the last TGV departs Lille at 17:07. [You can, of course, take classic trains, which take at least an hour longer (over a 35-minute journey by fast train) and involve at least one change.] The Eurostars are an integral part of the high-speed service between Lille and Brussels, so making it difficult for passengers to use them is not desirable.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Do you have any figures to prove there is a gradual reduction of international train services all over the EU? My perception is that the opposite is the case, with TGVs running to Germany and the recent development of the OeBB Railjet network to take just 2 examples.

The general trend seems to be a reduction of local/classic cross-border trains as high-speed services increase. This was seen most recently in the withdrawal of the classic through service between Brussels and Amsterdam after the introduction of a high-speed service with brand-spanking-new trains, which was then abandoned as these trains didn't work properly, but the classic service has not been restored.

The reason for stopping or reducing the classic service seems to be fear that local services would abstract revenue from the high-speed ones. I think this is mistaken: the local and fast trains serve different markets. But it's what happens. Another example is SNCB's barely adequate 2-hourly service between on the classic route between Liège and Aachen, but SNCB didn't want to run any at all lest it abstracted revenue from Thalys.

Even worse is the lack of any rail service at all between Erquelinnes (Be) and Jeumont (Fr), 2km away on a rail line that runs across the border.

But there are others,like Malmö–Copenhagen and Strasbourg–Kehl, which are models of how a cross-border passenger train service should work. The EU ban on subsidising cross-border services is certainly an issue, and it would make sense to allow governments to subsidise local train services to the first station across the border on the same basis as domestic services. But perhaps another reason for mixed provision of cross-border services is that national operators don't always play nicely with each other.
 
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D1009

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The general trend seems to be a reduction of local/classic cross-border trains as high-speed services increase. This was seen most recently in the withdrawal of the classic through service between Brussels and Amsterdam after the introduction of a high-speed service with brand-spanking-new trains, which was then abandoned as these trains didn't work properly, but the classic service has not been restored.
This does not mean there has been a general reduction of international services across the EU for reasons of "rules" which was the point I was answering.
 

transmanche

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Well, Westbahn have stopped cross border services to Freilassing (Wien-Salzburg only now).
Wasn't that original plan anyway? The service only extending the extra 4 miles to Freilassing due to the rebuilding of Salzburg Hbf.
 

ChiefPlanner

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There was a detailed study on Lille - Brussels extra HS services (using various options) about 3 years ago , sponsored by Lille City Council - clearly died a death in the present economic climate and the usual SNCF /SNCB politics as to who does what.
 

RT4038

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That's very interesting, conclusively demonstrating that pre-boarding inspections are more practical and economic than British officials performing the operation on the train.

Many complain about Eurostar running like an airline on rails, however there is one thing that airlines in the air manage to do that is seemingly beyond Eurostar and the other potential international rail operators (clearly not neccessarily their fault), that is operate services to London from many different Shengen airports without having UK officials carry out passport checks at each European embarkation point. If a rail operator takes reasonable steps to screen passengers on boarding and is then obliged to carry back anyone rejected by incoming immigration checks at London, how is that rail situation any different in principle from the air and why do such diffferent rules apply. I must admit I haven't flown to or from Europe for YEARS so I have no recent personal experience and I could be completely wrong however I doubt that every Shengen airport with a flight to London carries a full compliment of UK Border Agency staff. Why should a rail operation be any different, assuming terminal security was at a similar level to that at airports. I understand on long routes carrying people between Shengen stations on the continent before going on to London could still cause problems, although that might be addressed by asking such travellers to pass through the same security with ID documents backed up in the conditions of carriage by a stiff full fare back if they fraudulently attempt to use such access to get to London. There might be an argument that such restrictions would be unacceptable within Shengen, but these would be additional trains on routes which other services ply so it should be possible to choose to wait for a later mainland only non controlled train or catch the earlier controlled one.

There are not UKBA officials at foreign airports - but everyone who boards a plane has their passport checked and their authority to land (Visa) checked. Passports are then checked by UKBA officials on arrival on British soil. If a carrier permits a passenger without the correct documentation to land there is a fine of £2500, plus the responsibility of taking them back. Of course if they were in the Schengen area illegally already, or have no multiple entry visa, then this would be back to their country of origin [if their identification has not been disposed of in the meantime and asylum claimed] . I don't think any 'Conditions of Carriage' are going to cater for this kind of situation.

To replace the UKBA checks at Eurostar stations with railway official checks in secure areas, then having the queues of 800 passengers (far more than most planes) waiting for passport clearance in St Pancras, would seem of little advantage. The railways would still not be able to easily mix domestic and international passengers in the same train, which is really the main economic obstacle to a greater range of Cross Channel destinations, without running the risk of being penalised for landing passengers without the correct documentation.
 

duesselmartin

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International trains seem in decline partially due to complex fare structures with different operators. See Cologne-Brussels-Paris. DB Tickets not valid on Thalys.
Munich to Italy services are only a shadow of their former self.
As to TGV, Railjet, ICE services, they are not extra trains but replaced existing EuroCity services, often with reduced capacity.
International night trains are also in a massive decline and will certainly almost seize to exist in the next decade or so.
 

cgcenet

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Munich to Italy services are only a shadow of their former self.
This may be a result of Trenitalia's uncooperative behaviour, unilaterally withdrawing from the joint operation with ÖBB and DB running these services, then trying its hardest to prevent ÖBB and DB from continuing to run the services without Trenitalia's involvement. Therein lies another possible reason for loss of cross-border train services: operators not playing nicely with each other.
 
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Taunton

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International trains seem in decline partially due to complex fare structures with different operators.
More particularly, it's arguments between the companies over the split of revenue, and in particular following the enforced division between track and train operating companies. This sort of thing is progressively increasing over time, the UK experience between train operators is not the only such one.

The Italian experience is a longstanding one for them; a generation ago the accounting division of international freight revenues between the Italian and the Swiss railways was reported to be three years behind! The Italians had made various Payments on Account (an accountants expression for "a guess to be going on with while we work it out properly"), and it was clearly getting to the stage that it was no longer worth doing the arithmetic properly.
 

RT4038

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International trains seem in decline partially due to complex fare structures with different operators. See Cologne-Brussels-Paris. DB Tickets not valid on Thalys.
Munich to Italy services are only a shadow of their former self.
As to TGV, Railjet, ICE services, they are not extra trains but replaced existing EuroCity services, often with reduced capacity.
International night trains are also in a massive decline and will certainly almost seize to exist in the next decade or so.

And I suspect the root of these 'complex' fare structures (or perhaps better described as 'exclusive fare structures') is the need to maximise revenue to an individual operator, and be able to show that the service is operated without loss. Yield management, compulsory reservation, low cost and speed is the mantra. Obviously this is not the only reason for decline of International, particularly long distance, trains - low cost airlines and increasingly deregulated coach services will be factors too. Local services, usually only running a few stations over the border, are not so affected; but these are not often of practical use to the longer distance traveller.
 
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