DB running on HS1

[WestCoast]

I think the whole illegal migrants and passports issue could be solved by not using poncey plue shirted UK Border Agency and instead use Northern Rail's Crack Revenue / Armed Assault Team

I've always thought that the UK's immigration looked very soft compared to even our closest European neighbours, in their police style uniforms!

And if you're talking about G4S , on the bridge at Preston people just seem to walk past them

 

[185]

G4S are just the sheep, but occasionally the wolves do dress up in the sheeps clothing.
They've had a steady increase in revenue operations (stings) recently.

Another company does the same by switching ordinary gateline staff with revenue protection officers, however it's often blatantly obvious as they are usually double the height/width. S

 

[brianthegiant]

By that logic, why do terrorists still go to all the trouble of getting bombs on planes, despite all the security, Because they like "postcard" targets, and the Channel Tunnel is most definitely that.

Postcard targets? what like Burton on the Water ?
Hmm I think its a bit more complex than that.

At the end of the day terrorist attacks are essentially a nasty form of marketing, what any campaign group, peaceful or violent needs to promote their message is maximum number of "column inches" (also front page photos / live broadcast minutes / twitter count / whatever). So if you have a major city as your target, using whatever medium (trains / planes etc), you can quickly get large numbers of reporters on the scene recording all those gruelling scenes. So if you do a 7/7 style bombing you get more media impact than if you do a bomb in the middle of a tunnel which the media can't get to. I would expect that most terrorists will have thought of this which is why there have been plenty of bomb attacks on British cities and none on the tunnel.

Don't get me wrong this is no cause for complacency, but I just dont think we should talk down the Tunnel by saying its more of a priority terrorist target than it actually is.

 

[valedave]

New development with regards to security measures / platform isolation in Cologne.

http://www.ksta.de/html/artikel/1302525801048.shtml

Quick translation:

A new control zone will have to be constructed in Cologne Hbf for the planned ICE connection with London. Deutsche Bahn is intending to use platform 1 for this and wants to accomodate the respective trains there despite potential restrictions (for other rail transport).

From 2013, DB wants to run three daily services between Frankfurt and London, all of which will stop in Cologne. The journey from the Rhine to the Thames should last just under four hours. But comprehensive restructuring is required at Cologne Hbf for this to be possible. Due to the strict security measures involving in travelling through the Channel Tunnel, passengers and luggage must be checked and scanned as it would be at an airport. This means that respective control and waiting zones must be established.

"Platform 1 is the only option," says DB spokesman Udo Kampschulte. "We are not yet sure where, how and what exactly will be constructed," he continued. The decision will be made in the next few months. One thing is certain: it must be ensured that people cannot board the train without being checked. For passengers, this means that they will have to be at the station earlier than they would be for other rail journeys.

The Green party are thoroughly critical of the plans for the new ICE connection. Green party transport expert Manfred Waddey, for example, refers to the fact that the ICE to and from Frankfurt will have to cross all other platforms in order to reach platform 1 and this "will significantly hinder other rail traffic at the station". Kampfschulte does not agree. "As only three journeys are planned per day, operations in the station will not be affected to a large extent."

Waddey also criticises the fact that passengers who only want to travel to Brussels will not be exempt from the security checks and he fears that rail transport in the region will become worse due to the fact that the London ICE shall also replace some connections. This means, for example, that cities such as Siegburg and Liege which will not be served by the London ICE, will lose some services. Waddeys suggestion is that the ICE only travels as far as Brussels, all passengers then get off the train, go through the security measures and get on another ICE bound for London. DB spokesman Kampschulte sees no positives in this idea.

Frankfurt, Cologne, Lille and Brussels are intended to be served by the new ICE service. Whether the train stops at Aachen is still being debated. "The question is whether that's economical," said Kampschulte. That will depend on the forecasted passenger levels, and also on whether the city of Aachen shares some of the costs. Negotiations are ongoing. It is not expected that the city of Cologne will share any of the reconstruction/operating costs.

 

[gordonthemoron]

The existing ICE between Cologne and Brussels mainly pickups in Cologne & sets down in Brussle-Midi (and vice versa). There is very little passenger action at Aachen or Liege

 

[valedave]

Yeah, I know. I can't really see what they're crying about to be honest. In terms of its location in Germany, Aachen is off the beaten track and not important enough (in my opinion) to be served on a service such as Frankfurt-London.

Besides, people of Aachen wanting to go to London can simply hop on an ICE for 30 minutes and they're in Köln.

 

[gordonthemoron]

aside from the fact it's in the opposite direction. They'd be better taking a Thalys to Brussels and changing there

 

[valedave]

That would be more expensive though. Aachen -> Köln -> London will most probably be able to be issued as one (DB) ticket

 

[ChrisCooper]

At the end of the day terrorist attacks are essentially a nasty form of marketing, what any campaign group, peaceful or violent needs to promote their message is maximum number of "column inches" (also front page photos / live broadcast minutes / twitter count / whatever). So if you have a major city as your target, using whatever medium (trains / planes etc), you can quickly get large numbers of reporters on the scene recording all those gruelling scenes. So if you do a 7/7 style bombing you get more media impact than if you do a bomb in the middle of a tunnel which the media can't get to. I would expect that most terrorists will have thought of this which is why there have been plenty of bomb attacks on British cities and none on the tunnel.

I think it's an interesting point that the iconic image of 7/7 is not the Underground trains, but the bus. Overall it was the most sucessful of the attacks, as it not only had the biggest visual impact, but also had a similar body count and grusome injury count.

A Channel Tunnel attack would likely not be that effective in any way. As you say, the visual impact would be very low. I don't expect the body count would be that high, if you look at the number of survivors on those busy Underground Trains, and compare that to the average loadings of a Eurostar carriage, then it's unlikely that many would be killed or seriously injured. 7/7 and Madrid both showed that bombs onboard trains are not going to blow trains off the tracks and are going to be fairly localised affairs. A large part of the blast radius of a bomb on a train will be outside the train, and the internal blast and shrapnel will likely be deflected by internal fixtures (amazed me on one of the 7/7 C stock trains, the person sitting right next to the doorway where the bomber blew himself up walked away unharmed because the partition protected him). From a disruption point of view it would be very little as there is the second tunnel and it would need to be a big bomb to damage the tunnel lining.

Really, if you want visual impact, you've got to blow something up where it's going to be seen. If you want a high number of deaths, you need to be in the middle of a crowded area, and if you want disruption, you want to target the infrastructure.

 

[cle]

Could they segregate the train so that Frankfurt/Cologne - Brussels/Lille passengers are separate, and don't need to go through security?

And those boarding at Brussels/Lille could fill those seats. Might work with a double unit with no through access.

But if Liege and Aachen are cut, I'd expect the journey times to be better than today's Thalys services, and quite good to London!

 

[Relativenewbie]

Could they segregate the train so that Frankfurt/Cologne - Brussels/Lille passengers are separate, and don't need to go through security?

And those boarding at Brussels/Lille could fill those seats. Might work with a double unit with no through access.

But if Liege and Aachen are cut, I'd expect the journey times to be better than today's Thalys services, and quite good to London!

Good idea, they could just stick two ICEs together and run it as one unit

 

[brianthegiant]

nice idea,
though my understanding is that the ICE to/from London would split at Brussels and the portions go to/come from Amsterdam and Frankfurt. Hence they can get both routes out of each tunnel slot.

hence why they came up with this sample train info board at st pancras last year:
www.flickr.com/photos/wirewiping/5098717607/

so there would only be 1 set going to frankfurt anyway.

 

[gordonthemoron]

spotted a brand new Siemens Velaro D in DB ICE livery at Munich Hauptbahnhof last night. This is the new train that both DB & Eurostar will run through the channel tunnel from 2012/2013.

It was being guarded by at least half a dozen security men.

 

[Nigel Gresley]

It was being guarded by at least half a dozen security men.

Worried that someone would steal it ?

 

[jon0844]

Worried that someone would steal it ?

It was in Munich, not Manchester!

 

[TGV]

spotted a brand new Siemens Velaro D in DB ICE livery at Munich Hauptbahnhof last night. This is the new train that both DB & Eurostar will run through the channel tunnel from 2012/2013.

It was being guarded by at least half a dozen security men.

It's not quite the train Eurostar will be using. It hasn't been built yet. It may well be very similar.

Was it a single unit, 400m in length and consisting of 16 vehicles?

 

[gordonthemoron]

No, normal 8 coach length like an ICE3, only E* are getting the 16 coach version

 

[kylemore]

New development with regards to security measures / platform isolation in Cologne.

http://www.ksta.de/html/artikel/1302525801048.shtml

Quick translation:

A new control zone will have to be constructed in Cologne Hbf for the planned ICE connection with London. Deutsche Bahn is intending to use platform 1 for this and wants to accomodate the respective trains there despite potential restrictions (for other rail transport).

From 2013, DB wants to run three daily services between Frankfurt and London, all of which will stop in Cologne. The journey from the Rhine to the Thames should last just under four hours. But comprehensive restructuring is required at Cologne Hbf for this to be possible. Due to the strict security measures involving in travelling through the Channel Tunnel, passengers and luggage must be checked and scanned as it would be at an airport. This means that respective control and waiting zones must be established.

"Platform 1 is the only option," says DB spokesman Udo Kampschulte. "We are not yet sure where, how and what exactly will be constructed," he continued. The decision will be made in the next few months. One thing is certain: it must be ensured that people cannot board the train without being checked. For passengers, this means that they will have to be at the station earlier than they would be for other rail journeys.

The Green party are thoroughly critical of the plans for the new ICE connection. Green party transport expert Manfred Waddey, for example, refers to the fact that the ICE to and from Frankfurt will have to cross all other platforms in order to reach platform 1 and this "will significantly hinder other rail traffic at the station". Kampfschulte does not agree. "As only three journeys are planned per day, operations in the station will not be affected to a large extent."

Waddey also criticises the fact that passengers who only want to travel to Brussels will not be exempt from the security checks and he fears that rail transport in the region will become worse due to the fact that the London ICE shall also replace some connections. This means, for example, that cities such as Siegburg and Liege which will not be served by the London ICE, will lose some services. Waddeys suggestion is that the ICE only travels as far as Brussels, all passengers then get off the train, go through the security measures and get on another ICE bound for London. DB spokesman Kampschulte sees no positives in this idea.

Frankfurt, Cologne, Lille and Brussels are intended to be served by the new ICE service. Whether the train stops at Aachen is still being debated. "The question is whether that's economical," said Kampschulte. That will depend on the forecasted passenger levels, and also on whether the city of Aachen shares some of the costs. Negotiations are ongoing. It is not expected that the city of Cologne will share any of the reconstruction/operating costs.

Ever notice how Green Party "Transport Experts" whether in UK or elsewhere are usually anything but!
What does he want, even more wasteful short flights Frankfurt - London.
Looking forward to this as Koeln is my Lieblings Stadt Deutschlands (favourite German city)!

 

[Railjet]

Ever notice how Green Party "Transport Experts" whether in UK or elsewhere are usually anything but!
What does he want, even more wasteful short flights Frankfurt - London.
Looking forward to this as Koeln is my Lieblings Stadt Deutschlands (favourite German city)!

Exactly. I would tend to support Green policies, if they could take the politics out of it and get to grips with what is, on balance, really good for the environment.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Trains already cross several tracks at Cologne Hbf as trains routed Frankfurt-Cologne Hbf-Dusseldorf reverse there, there's at least one an hour in each direction that does this, doesn't the green party spokesman know anything about Cologne Hbf?

 

[jon0844]

They are probably ignored but have to be allowed to speak so the media can show balance in the reporting!

 

[EWS 58038]

Speeding over greenhouses,
Flying over rivers,
Thundering under a sea.

Cheese from Holland
Chocolates from Belgium
Ale from good old Britain

No waiting at airports
No hassle with lost luggage
No more cab rides to the city

Welcome to ALICE
The Amsterdam - London ICE

Yes I love my job...

 

[cle]

Aren't Eurostar going to serve Koln and Frankfurt too?

Would DB let them use their security facilities and passport control? If they're financing it, rather than the station, or city, or EU?

 

[gordonthemoron]

E* have only mentioned Amsterdam & Geneva

 

[j0hn0]

spotted a brand new Siemens Velaro D in DB ICE livery at Munich Hauptbahnhof last night. This is the new train that both DB & Eurostar will run through the channel tunnel from 2012/2013.

It was being guarded by at least half a dozen security men.

ooh nice, is this the one that DB have on their homepage? looks slick as fook

 

[MCR247]

Which homepage?

 

[gordonthemoron]

yes, which homepage? the Velaro D looks rather like an ICE3, which I'm sure that John is familiar with

 

[j0hn0]

yes, which homepage? the Velaro D looks rather like an ICE3, which I'm sure that John is familiar with

Second picture

http://www.deutschebahn.com/site/bahn/de/start.html

The front looks totally different to an ICE by all accounts, much squarer and of course the humped roof line

 

[gordonthemoron]

That's an ICx not a Velaro D

 

[MCR247]

Second picture

http://www.deutschebahn.com/site/bahn/de/start.html

The front looks totally different to an ICE by all accounts, much squarer and of course the humped roof line

That's an ICx not a Velaro D

Which the caption says quite clearly