DB to buy Grand Central

[SteamPower]

I wonder if the GC HQ in York will move to the Arriva HQ at Doxford park in Sunderland

DB will be taking voer all north east travel soon. XC/the Arriva bus monster/metro and now GC.

Don't forget Chiltern, and a certain freight company EWS

 

[MCR247]

Chiltern isn't north east travel is it?

 

[SteamPower]

Chiltern isn't north east travel is it?

Yeah I realised this afterwards just pointing out the stake they have in our railway, more than they should IMO.

 

[tirphil]

I was told by a Director of EWS that Grand Central would never take off.
If DB get there hands on this company I would worry for its future.

Was it the same director who claimed EWS had nothing to fear from FLHH?

Back to running passenger trains over the ECML, EWS as was made a pitch for the East Coast franchise when it was up for tender in partnership with a Danish (?) Rail company IIRC. Can't remember if DB owned EWS by then or not though. Keith Heller was with EWS by this time though. I do recall that much.

 

[TDK]

I say Bring back WSMR - will cost a lot less than 20m Euros and WSMR losses were far less than GC's are currently

 

[BananaRepublic]

If Deustch Bahn are state owned is everyday control effectively in the hands of Berlin or is it farmed out - ie more like BR used to be ?

Does DB receive a subsidy from Berlin or does it make a profit ?

DB was technically "privatised" back in 1994.
That is to say that that the entire corporation was transformed from "state railway", into a private joint stock company, with the government allocated 100% of the shares.

IIRC this was done so DB could be run as a commercial enterprise, to separate infrastructure from operations (to allow competition) and to prepare for actual "privatisation", i.e. selling off all or parts of the group.
There was an intention to sell off all or part of the company, but political and fierce union opposition has stalled these plans for over 10 years.


As for GC. Making huge losses on it's operation, with a business model that seems to be based on ORCATS raiding and abstracting revenue from the franchised operators, rather than making "honest" money from selling seats. I'm surprised if it's a target for a take-over by anyone, let alone DB Arriva.

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[ainsworth74]

As for GC. Making huge losses on it's operation, with a business model that seems to be based on ORCATS raiding and abstracting revenue from the franchised operators, rather than making "honest" money from selling seats. I'm surprised if it's a target for a take-over by anyone, let alone DB Arriva.

It's worth baring in mind that the Sunderland operation is either breaking even or making money, it's the Bradford side of affairs that's losing money. Hence my earlier comment that I'd be worried if this take over happened and I used GC's Bradford service.

 

[yorksrob]

DB was technically "privatised" back in 1994.
That is to say that that the entire corporation was transformed from "state railway", into a private joint stock company, with the government allocated 100% of the shares.

IIRC this was done so DB could be run as a commercial enterprise, to separate infrastructure from operations (to allow competition) and to prepare for actual "privatisation", i.e. selling off all or parts of the group.
There was an intention to sell off all or part of the company, but political opposition has stalled these plans for over 10 years.


.

So basically, our Government, which took such effort to tell us how inefficient state owned companies were at running railways, even to the extent of banning state enterprises from running railways, has now decided its OK to sell our railway to a foreign state owned railway. Shows just what a corrupt joke this country really is.

 

[Eagle]

So basically, our Government, which took such effort to tell us how inefficient state owned companies were at running railways, even to the extent of banning state enterprises from running railways, has now decided its OK to sell our railway to a foreign state owned railway. Shows just what a corrupt joke this country really is.

What do you mean now? DB already hold three passenger and one freight franchise in Britain. SNCF and NS have significant ownership of a few too. This has been going on for years. If we'd privatized BR in the European way I'm sure it would be bidding for the local franchises in Germany.

 

[90019]

What do you mean now?

I guess people generally take the names of businesses at face value and don't often think about who it is that's actually behind it.

SNCF and NS have significant ownership of a few too.

I sort of hope NedRail get the ScotRail franchise in the future.
To see the reactions of Scottish people getting on a train with 'ScotRail is Operated by NedRail' on the doors

 

[davo882000]

It's interesting to note that DB now runs the Tyne and wear metro in sunderland, we now have the arriva HQ in Sunderland we have Sir Tom Cowie living in Sunderland (the entrepreneur who started cowies back in 1930 selling second hand push bikes believe it or not started at millfield (opposite millfield metro station ) however we do not have an arriva bus depot in Sunderland nor bus routes in Sunderland apart from the odd one or two from Middlesbrough Darlington peterlee. (bizarrely) I would like to see GC stay GC and DB to keep the hands off! It's great to see that GC is investing and have plans to operate from towns and cities that other companies refused to operate from. I recall transpennine (arriva) withdrawing services from Sunderland which linked us to Manchester airport Liverpool lime street and even York but they got withdrew. But GC committed themselves to starting from Sunderland even though they pass Newcastle station from Heaton depot to start in Sunderland GC to stay GC I'd say.

 

[yorksrob]

What do you mean now? DB already hold three passenger and one freight franchise in Britain. SNCF and NS have significant ownership of a few too. This has been going on for years. If we'd privatized BR in the European way I'm sure it would be bidding for the local franchises in Germany.

Quite - but of course we didn't did we. I still await an explanation from the powers that be as to how it is acceptable for state owned enterprises to buy up railway companies in this country when this was explicitly disallowed at the time of privatisation.

 

[BananaRepublic]

What do you mean now? DB already hold three passenger and one freight franchise in Britain.

DB have had an interest in UK passenger operators for a few years now, firstly with the acquisition of Laing Rail in 2008 (Chiltern plus their share of LOROL and W&SMR) and more recently with the acquisition of the European wide operation of Arriva (including their UK operations XC & ATW). Then there's the Tyne & Wear Metro contract too.
All these UK operations now come under the Arriva UK banner....

Cross Country Trains
Arriva Trains Wales
Chiltern Railways
half share in LOROL, provider of the London Overground service on behalf of TfL
operation of the Tyne & Wear Metro, on behalf of Nexus.

Incidentally, there is no such thing as a Freight franchise.
UK freight operating companies (FOC's) are open access operators. There are no franchises to be let.

Back to ownership of DB.
The subtlety may be lost on some people, but I think it's worth re-emphasising that DB is not a "state run" railway in the sense that is once was.
DB is a "private" company, that happens to be owned 100% by the German state.
Some may think that's just semantics, but there's a subtle but important difference in that.


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[YorkshireBear]

Loadings on GC seem to be improving. i noticed the bradford service at donny last night at half 9 was at least 1/4 full which is a lot more than i have ever seen it before. Maybe mirfield could help too it will be interesting to see how the bradford route progresses now it has a foothold.

It can't be too bad an idea them buying it ,but i hope that another WSMR does not happen or it will be very dissapointing. They seem to have succesfully tapped into a market very effectively not that WSMR didn't they just seem to have had better look.

Do GC have any plans for expansion? onto any possible alliance rail routes?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I don't see what assets GC has that are of value to DB/Arriva.
They would acquire a few ECML paths and train sets, but would probably not be able to bid for the next EC franchise because of the conflict of interest.
Arriva will surely want a good run at EC when the time comes.
Their backing of Alliance is a bit more understandable as they have already lost the opportunity for a WC franchise.

I think the same issues will apply to First and GC, and I would have thought their Hull Trains ownership might also not help their EC bid.

 

[gary47]

Didn't alliance own shropshire and wrexham trains which stopped running

 

[ainsworth74]

Didn't alliance own shropshire and wrexham trains which stopped running

No Wrexham and Shropshire was owned by Renaissance Trains and Laing Rail until Laing Rail was taken over by DB Regio.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Didn't alliance own shropshire and wrexham trains which stopped running

No, Renaissance Rail part-owned WSMR with Chiltern and Laing who were acquired by DB.
Renaissance still, I think, part-own Hull Trains with First.
Alliance appears to be now all-Arriva.

 

[Darandio]

They would acquire a few ECML paths and train sets,

They wouldn't acquire any sets, GC do not own any.

 

[BananaRepublic]

No, Renaissance Rail part-owned WSMR with Chiltern and Laing who were acquired by DB.

Chiltern were owned by Laing Rail, who were part of the Henderson Group.
Therefore WS&MR were originally owned by Renaissance Rail and Laing Rail.

After DB Regio's purchase of Laing Rail, They became the major shareholder in WS&MR.
Following DB's take-over of the Arriva group and subsequent reorganisation, DB Regio UK is now a division of Arriva Rail UK.

Well that's how I read it, unless it's changed again in the last couple of weeks?

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[tbtc]

I don't see what assets GC has that are of value to DB/Arriva.
They would acquire a few ECML paths and train sets, but would probably not be able to bid for the next EC franchise because of the conflict of interest.
Arriva will surely want a good run at EC when the time comes.
Their backing of Alliance is a bit more understandable as they have already lost the opportunity for a WC franchise.

I think the same issues will apply to First and GC, and I would have thought their Hull Trains ownership might also not help their EC bid.

Agreed - what do GC have that you'd pay money for (whether £20m or £20...)?

The units and paths are only "leased", there's not the same guarantees that you'd have running a "real" franchise, you'd be effectively ruling yourself out of winning the lucrative East Coast franchise... and thats before you factor in the fact that they are losing money every year.

The whole thing is a non-starter for me.

Loadings on GC seem to be improving. i noticed the bradford service at donny last night at half 9 was at least 1/4 full which is a lot more than i have ever seen it before. Maybe mirfield could help too it will be interesting to see how the bradford route progresses now it has a foothold

You'd hope that you could sell a few hundred seats on any service leaving London on a Friday evening.

It seems a real waste of a five coach 125mph train, at a time when plenty other routes have twice the passenger numbers but use smaller trains

 

[Bridge189]

I think they were mad to start Bradford service. EC provide a quicker route with more confortable trains and better catering from Foster Square. Is the Sunderland route actually in profit/breaking even now? The whole company could/would have been it better fortunes had they have just stuck to that route until they as a company were in comfortable profit.

 

[davo882000]

I'm under the impression that GC although mAde a loss there projected loss was better than predicted if that makes sense

GC always anticipated that they would make a loss for first 4yrs off the top of my head
I do believe they want to expand to create a Blackpool service too

 

[TDK]

I'm under the impression that GC although mAde a loss there projected loss was better than predicted if that makes sense

GC always anticipated that they would make a loss for first 4yrs off the top of my head
I do believe they want to expand to create a Blackpool service too

Aparaently so I have heard GC lost 8m last year and 44m since they started

 

[anthony263]

I think the Sunderland route is making a profit but the money is effectivly subsidising the Bradford service.

I too agree that the Bradford service is a bit of a waste to use 125mph class 180 adelante's on, Maybe they should have copied huill trains and used class 170's or something providing there were paths available for them.

I know they need at least 1 class 180 for the Sunderland route but if they dropped the Bradford service then at least 1 or 2 of the 180's could go to FGW/Hull trains to provide extra capacity

 

[davo882000]

Why would be ambitious would be instead of the capital Sunderland to glasgow via edinbrough

 

[DarloRich]

why should they go to Hull or FGW? GC have paths for these services and they will need 125 between Donny and Kings Cross.

It took a long time for the Sunderland service to be trusted. Every time i travel now the train is just about full. Sometimes it is totally full and standing.

Maybe GC could build up the Bradford service. However i doubt they would get that chance if taken over by DB. I think DB would cut the service and look to deploy the 180's elsewhere. I am sure Chilten could use them (and the HST!)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why would be ambitious would be instead of the capital Sunderland to glasgow via edinbrough

what does that mean in English? Are you suggesting there is a market for Sunderland to Scotland? :roll:

I think Sunderland to London via York is sensible. It fills in service gap and (how can i put this) provides "additonal revenue streams"!

 

[142094]

Sunderland - KGX is a sensible route onyl for the fact GC can tap into the York market - I highly doubt if GC make enough money to cover costs north of York. Same goes for Doncaster on the West Riding route - no Doncaster and they certainly wouldn't be running to Bradford.

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

Sunderland - KGX is a sensible route onyl for the fact GC can tap into the York market - I highly doubt if GC make enough money to cover costs north of York. Same goes for Doncaster on the West Riding route - no Doncaster and they certainly wouldn't be running to Bradford.

I think you'd be surprised... there's quite a few get on in Hartlepool & Eaglescliffe, on all services...

 

[davo882000]

I agree with @omgitsdave it is suprising how many people do board at eaglescliffe and Hartlepool I believe that if a journey to edinbrough and Glasgow was introduced even 2 a day it would create greater demand

You will be surprised at how many Sunderland people have to travel or do travel to Newcastle and Durham just to get access to the east coast.

GC originally only had three trains from Sunderland to london than as demand increased so did supply to four trains they did ask for five trains I believe but was refused due to space on the ecml