Deal agreed between RMT and SWR regarding future role of guards

[pompeyfan]

That’s why I didn’t mention stop short, because we know the system doesn’t check that. But CSDE should be an easier improvement if it’s already read. The online description I saw of the SWT Desiro system, (in rail engineer mag), said the TMS was reading platform side data, just not using it yet.

Ah fair enough. I suppose it’s very unlikely (save for about two stations) for a guard to put up a wrong side door release and so it was judged it wasn’t worth implementing it.

 

[yorkie]

By full DOO I meant DOO without a second member of staff on board.

A train does not cease to be driver only operated when a ticket inspector / revenue protection officer - who is not involved in the operation of the train - boards the train.

 

[Chester1]

DOO-P stands for Driver Only Operation - Passenger, in technical terms a DOO train is a non passenger train, empty coaching stock, engineers or a freight train etc.

DCO was a term coined at the start of the Southern Dispute a few years ago now, I'm not sure of the exact origin of the term but I'm sure someone came up with it during a tea and biscuits meeting between the DFT/ORR, RSSB and the TOCs...

In, short it's a sop to make DOO seem more palatable to both the public and the workforce. From a strictly technical and legislation point of view a DCO train is a DOO-P train.

From a passenger perspective there is a big difference between DOO with and without a compulsory second person. Having a second person in an emergency and a person to deal with normal stuff like ticket checking and disabled access is what matters to vast majority of passengers. Who opens and closes the doors doesn't matter to the average passenger.

 

[Robertj21a]

Incredible that there are still debates and disputes over who should open the doors after so many years.
About time all this silliness was finalised - but I seem to recall a good many threads on here never managed to get much in the way of agreement!

 

[Monty]

From a passenger perspective there is a big difference between DOO with and without a compulsory second person. Having a second person in an emergency and a person to deal with normal stuff like ticket checking and disabled access is what matters to vast majority of passengers. Who opens and closes the doors doesn't matter to the average passenger.

That been made abundantly clear to me over the last few years. Thankfully I don't need to consult with them on professional matters.

Incredible that there are still debates and disputes over who should open the doors after so many years.
About time all this silliness was finalised - but I seem to recall a good many threads on here never managed to get much in the way of agreement!

That's your opinion I guess and you have a right to it, doesn't mean I agree with it.

 

[Chester1]

That been made abundantly clear to me over the last few years. Thankfully I don't need to consult with them on professional matters.



That's your opinion I guess and you have a right to it, doesn't mean I agree with it.

If you don't value passengers opinions then its a bit odd to be posting about this on a rail forum were the vast majority of members are enthusiasts not staff!

Passenger views matter because they feed into the vote calculus involved in government decision making. Neither the staff or the government have got what they wanted out of this. Passengers have got what the majority wanted, retention of a second person but with a much greater focus on customer service instead of opening and closing doors. It is a decent compromise.

 

[Monty]

If you don't value passengers opinions then its a bit odd to be posting about this on a rail forum were the vast majority of members are enthusiasts not staff!

Passenger views matter because they feed into the vote calculus involved in government decision making. Neither the staff or the government have got what they wanted out of this. Passengers have got what the majority wanted, retention of a second person but with a much greater focus on customer service instead of opening and closing doors. It is a decent compromise.

As I have already said to another forum member you are entitled to your opinion, doesn't mean it's correct. I'm also acutely aware that passenger engagement is important however as biased as it sounds (I do not deny it) in my own opinion unless you have had a key background in this part of the industry many people here or or the public in general are not qualified to make these types of decisions.

 

[Robertj21a]

As I have already said to another forum member you are entitled to your opinion, doesn't mean it's correct. I'm also acutely aware that passenger engagement is important however as biased as it sounds (I do not deny it) in my own opinion unless you have had a key background in this part of the industry many people here or or the public in general are not qualified to make these types of decisions.

Do you believe that only your version is correct?

 

[Monty]

Do you believe that only your version is correct?

Not in the slightest, however I base my opinions on my professional experience, not only as a guard but as a trainer, assessor and undertaking project management work within the purview of the grade. I just have the unrealistic expectation that everyone who makes these decisions have similar experience or more. But I know for a fact this is not the case.

 

[FenMan]

I'm a driver on the West with the turbos. Incidents like that are posted on our notice boards and I can't say that there ever seemed to be an unusual number of either of them compared to any other incident. Obviously I don't have the statistics but have never had the impression there is a big issue. Sure they happen but I don't think it is to the extent that people would like to hear! I did get the impression that a lot of drivers realised that they were a 2 button press away from a balls up and took whatever steps they needed to minimise the risk. At my depot, and I think it was a company policy, the management were hot on how quickly you released the doors, wanting you to pause and have a think first.

Interesting. On the North Downs the doors are released pretty much the instant the train has stopped at each station (I have long experience of this, being a frequent user of services from Blackwater). I often also travel GWR to Guildford and then SWR for stations to Waterloo. At Woking, Clapham Junction and Waterloo the wait before the doors are released is very noticeable.

Possibly a West thing while the Turbos are bedding in?

 

[Chester1]

Not in the slightest, however I base my opinions on my professional experience, not only as a guard but as a trainer, assessor and undertaking project management work within the purview of the grade. I just have the unrealistic expectation that everyone who makes these decisions have similar experience or more. But I know for a fact this is not the case.

Which would mean introducing the most efficient system would be entirely reliant on turkeys voting for Christmas. No one supports their own job or those that their job is based on being reduced in scope!

 

[Ashley Hill]

The trouble is most passengers think we're all just clippies. Few of them know what a guards responsibilities are other that tickets and problem sorting and the TOCs are happy with that. Unfortunately the Union doesn't promote our operational role either and just go on about passenger safety.
Logically if the guard has control of the doors then every train must have a guard,hence why we want door control.

 

[pompeyfan]

It seems like a bit of an own goal allowing the mainline stuff to go DCO when suitable for the business but then the suburban guards would have felt they were being thrown under the bus.

I’m also surprised there wasn’t a compromise on the two twenty minute breaks policy. It’s not realistic to heat/reheat food and then eat a reasonable meal in that time.

 

[Horizon22]

I just have the unrealistic expectation that everyone who makes these decisions have similar experience or more. But I know for a fact this is not the case.

Actually I don't think that's particularly healthy as you can run into issues of "groupthink". Sometimes fresh - and on occasion, external - thinking can give new or different suggestions. Of course you need a mix of both, but the railway is not static and needs to embrace change, especially in these varied times.

 

[AY1975]

Phillip Haigh on Twitter has some further details

https://twitter.com/philatrail/status/1381892872056799242?s=21

There was a link to a document setting out the terms of the SWR/RMT agreement via the above link to Phillip Haigh's Twitter account, but it seems to have disappeared (and I can't find it on the RMT website either even though it was supposedly hosted on there).

That document only appears to mention changing to driver open/guard close, but the story on the BBC news site at https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-56733926 simply says that it has been agreed that drivers will operate the doors. Entry 110 in this thread (copied below) also seems to suggest that this will eventually be the case on the 701s.

There was somewhere in much paper briefs produced that stated the role of the guard on various stocks. I can't find it currently, it may have been an internal document issued by the company/union.

However it stated the eventual method of working for each individual stock type as:

701 DO/DC
450/444 DO/GC
158/9 No change (If memory serves correctly this also included the 442s as it was before their withdrawal)

I would presume given the cab config of a 458 that they too will become DO/GC.

 

[whoosh]

There was a link to a document setting out the terms of the SWR/RMT agreement via the above link to Phillip Haigh's Twitter account, but it seems to have disappeared (and I can't find it on the RMT website either even though it was supposedly hosted on there.

Try here: https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/publications/swr-proposal-document/proposal-document-swr.pdf

 

[74A]

I think the RMT has done a pretty good job at keeping an extra member of staff onboard. Guards effectively became obsolete in 1983 when the first DOO train ran and yet they are still here 38 years later.

 

[Robertj21a]

The trouble is most passengers think we're all just clippies. Few of them know what a guards responsibilities are other that tickets and problem sorting and the TOCs are happy with that. Unfortunately the Union doesn't promote our operational role either and just go on about passenger safety.
Logically if the guard has control of the doors then every train must have a guard,hence why we want door control.

The fact that Thameslink can run frequent 12 coach trains through the centre of London as DOO probably killed off most of the arguments - decades ago.

But we've been here before.....

 

[ainsworth74]

Yes we absolutely have. And we absolutely do not need to rehash all the same arguments that have been done again and again and again. And again. So I would strongly suggest that any further comments are directed towards the specifics of this deal and its implications rather than more general DOO related discussion.