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Dealing with Scum - Dutch Style

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Old Timer

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Unlike the UK, the Dutch do not bugger about with scum.

Apologies for the poor translation but you will get the gist.

DELFT - To trouble and aggression in the night train to curb, traveled to the railway police in plain clothes this weekend along the route to The Hague-Rotterdam-Breda.

The goal: to show that even in the night hours the normal rules. The harvest: 152 fines, 23 arrests and 60 black riders caught.

Quarter past five on Sunday morning, Delft station. When a gallant knight tries a young travelers to save his girlfriend. Her night out is likely to end in a cell after a hefty Rotterdam shouting match against eight officers in civilian clothes. 'Take me instead of her!''He shouts. His friends encourage him: "Save the cop, then you will be arrested.''

The story of this group of young people begin fifteen minutes earlier at Rotterdam Central Station. While waiting on the last night train travelers, sees the young travelers repeatedly open and shut the door. It is precisely this kind of wanton behavior to the civil officers of the National Police Agency, where the railway police corps, the print head.

But first the conductor gets the chance. He threatens the boys from the train set. It does not impress. Just before one of the guys down the button again. Unfortunately for him under the nose of a citizen of the agents, who drew up the strategy of stale beer smelling balcony. After six brutal decline shows the boy his identity. And keep smiling, even as calls to him that his night out more expensive than expected.

Then the additional conductors during the operation of the railway police in the train control. Good fish adolescent boys out of their pocket cards. The rest seems to have returned. But on the Station Delft is still wrong. First the boy a rattle sound behind the agent. Then press another button on the door again, while passengers are disembarking.

One by one, the group pulled the train station and off while the police dog barks at a tremendous distance. Eventually the girl swears that she is arrested. Her boyfriend remains in Delft. "It went so well. They all had a ticket,''sighs a conductress.

Intimidation, threats and abuse of NS staff was with urinating on the balconies, ignoring the smoking ban and vandalism reason for the railway police in citizen surveillance. Thus testing the agents in the real atmosphere the night network. "If we get in uniform, everybody immediately behaves,''knows Joost line agent for the route between Rotterdam and The Hague. Now see the policemen who misbehaves, they can act against him and set limits, in the hope that the passengers are drunk often behave better. So that the tourists and "sober" workers feel secure.

The message seems to come, suggests Joost. A first control last September was also the aggression men and women as part of the railway police. This weekend was much quieter. "It begins to realize that not everything is allowed on the train. However, we must persevere.''

The severity also arouses annoyance. 'Do I get a really fine? That is exaggerated,''sighs a boy who has his feet on the chair provided. ,, Are you at home then? Another must here again going down,''is the answer.

and from last night
Checks in 39 night trains in the Randstad and Ontario are 31 fines handed out Friday night because of disturbance of public order and safety. These were people who smoked, their feet on the bench, begging, drunk or alcohol with them, were too loud or their identity would not show.

Fifty employees of the National Police and the Dutch Railways checked 5730 passengers, of whom 77 had no valid ticket with him. They get a report.

The controls are designed to drive black, misconduct and assault combat. In general, the atmosphere in the trains and stations on the property, reports the NS. Two people were arrested, including one man who has 133 days in jail to spend.
 
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455driver

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It took a bit of reading but wow, THAT is the way to do it. If only we could have something similar over here!
 

Old Timer

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I think it best said that the Dutch are not so PC as the UK, and call a spade a spade ;)

Black riders are the black immigrants mostly from the Dutch Antilles, Surinam and especially Morocco.

They tend to hang about the railway of an evening and late at night and are the source of considerable problems.
 

CarterUSM

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I think it best said that the Dutch are not so PC as the UK, and call a spade a spade ;)

Black riders are the black immigrants mostly from the Dutch Antilles, Surinam and especially Morocco.

They tend to hang about the railway of an evening and late at night and are the source of considerable problems.

Sorry, i had to stifle a chuckle there!!!:D I honestly would never have guessed that meaning at all. Have they nowhere to go? What kind of crime are we talking here?
 

Old Timer

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Sorry, i had to stifle a chuckle there!!!:D I honestly would never have guessed that meaning at all. Have they nowhere to go? What kind of crime are we talking here?
Violent crime, drugs, etc, etc.

They travel at night in groups and will attack and assault lone travellers. They carry knives and guns are are not particularly nice people to come across late at night.
 

CarterUSM

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Violent crime, drugs, etc, etc.

They travel at night in groups and will attack and assault lone travellers. They carry knives and guns are are not particularly nice people to come across late at night.

Hence the hard hitting tactics of the police! I wouldn't fancy coming across a mob like that myself.
 

j0hn0

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errr, they don't call them black riders because of the colour of their skin. Black riders are people who don't pay for tickets, simple as that. Just like Schwarzfahren here in Germany.

Having lived in Holland myself, yes they are a tad racist but I do not think that you have translated correctly here OT ;)
 

j0hn0

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My Dutch and German friends tell me that most "blackriders" are indeed "black"

Then your dutch and german friends are racist.

Saying that they are mostly black does NOT mean that the official term for Schwarzfahren relates to the colour of their skin!!!!! <(

Guys, please think before you post racist bile, it really doesn't make you look good.

I have spoken to the mods about this also, but I can leave it here if you can ;)
 

NSEFAN

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j0hn0 said:
reb0118 said:
My Dutch and German friends tell me that most "blackriders" are indeed "black"
Then your dutch and german friends are racist.


If it's a statistical fact that more black people than white people get done for fair evasion, then are numbers racist?

If, however, this is idea that black people in Holland cause more problems is just 'common wisdom', or that black people are treated more harshly because of their skin colour, then that IS racist. It depends what his friends are going by. The race card isn't always the right one ;)

It's nice to see some hard hitting tactics either way. A greater police presence is needed on our late-night trains, methinks. I also think barriers should be in constant operation, and have an emergency release button in case of, errr, emergencies. CCTV could catch anyone abusing this button or jumping the barriers.
 

eos

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'black' is not a 'race' , so the statement " Then your dutch and german friends are racist" , is just a misguided troublemaker stirring the ****.
Neither is 'Ethinic' a racist term.
 
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ralphchadkirk

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'black' is not a 'race' , so the statement " Then your dutch and german friends are racist"
No, no, of course not. Of course America in the 50/60s wasn't racist!
 

eos

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So when the Police issue a description of a wanted person as 'White, Male', they are being racist .
This isn't America in the 50's and 60's and has no relevance to use of these terms in the UK today. There are many differences between the meanings of words in 'American' and this country.
 

Greenback

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So when the Police issue a description of a wanted person as 'White, Male', they are being racist .
This isn't America in the 50's and 60's and has no relevance to use of these terms in the UK today. There are many differences between the meanings of words in 'American' and this country.

No, they are not being racist - it's completely different from making a statement along the lines of 'most trouble makers are from xxxx countries', whcih was said in this thread.

whether it;s racist or not would depend on the scientific basis inf act for such a statement. If someone is quoting from statistics then it;s probably not racist. But if soemone is just saying something like 'In Llanelli, most fo the beggars are from Poland (or Ireland, or Jamaica or anywhere else)', and they don't have the facts to back this up, they could be accused of racism.
 

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According to the Oxford English Dictionary, racism is a belief or ideology that all members of each racial group possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially to distinguish it as being either superior or inferior to another racial group or racial groups.

Nothing published here thus constitutes racism or was offensive, EXCEPT the comment which suggested that racist comments had been made.

The word Black cannot be racist because there is no such thing as a black Race. There are Races who are black but no black Race.

It is a sad state of affairs that some (normally white) people will immediately throw accusations of racism towards anybody who makes anything other than a positive comment about another group of people.

These types of accusations are stero-typical of the Left who try to use them to create disharmony where there is none.

The comment made concerned the fact that the vast majority of Black Riders, were indeed Black. That is not a racist statement merely a statement of fact.

Or is it such that NO black person can ever do anything wrong ? Maybe only white people can do wrong ?

Only recently a Black Labour Councillor made what were clearly disparaging racialreferences against an Asian Conservative Councillor. She defended herself by saying only white people can be racist :roll:

If the original poster REALLY wants to see Racism then I suggest he goes to Zimbabwe, or any of the other Black Central African Countries, or Israel, or the Middle East.
http://www.answers.com/topic/racism#cite_note-Minorities.2C_Race.2C_and_Genomics-1
 

Mojo

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I think the suggestion that 'black riders' are so named because they are black could be interpreted as racist, but the fact is, that term did not originate because of the skin colour; rather how like the saying "whiter than white" is used to describe something good, or, eg. "it's a black day" used to describe something bad.
 

Greenback

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These phrases have also been criticised as being racist! White = good, black = bad! That is going too far!
 

BRX

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According to the Oxford English Dictionary, racism is a belief or ideology that all members of each racial group possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially to distinguish it as being either superior or inferior to another racial group or racial groups.

Nothing published here thus constitutes racism or was offensive, EXCEPT the comment which suggested that racist comments had been made.

The word Black cannot be racist because there is no such thing as a black Race. There are Races who are black but no black Race.

It is a sad state of affairs that some (normally white) people will immediately throw accusations of racism towards anybody who makes anything other than a positive comment about another group of people.

These types of accusations are stero-typical of the Left who try to use them to create disharmony where there is none.

The comment made concerned the fact that the vast majority of Black Riders, were indeed Black. That is not a racist statement merely a statement of fact.

Or is it such that NO black person can ever do anything wrong ? Maybe only white people can do wrong ?

Only recently a Black Labour Councillor made what were clearly disparaging racialreferences against an Asian Conservative Councillor. She defended herself by saying only white people can be racist :roll:

If the original poster REALLY wants to see Racism then I suggest he goes to Zimbabwe, or any of the other Black Central African Countries, or Israel, or the Middle East.
http://www.answers.com/topic/racism#cite_note-Minorities.2C_Race.2C_and_Genomics-1

You said:

Black riders are the black immigrants mostly from the Dutch Antilles, Surinam and especially Morocco.

I understand that the term translated as "black riders" means people travelling without a ticket.

So what you said was that people travelling without a ticket at night on the Dutch railway system are black immigrants. The implication of this is that all, or the vast majority are. You then went on to say

Violent crime, drugs, etc, etc.

They travel at night in groups and will attack and assault lone travellers. They carry knives and guns are are not particularly nice people to come across late at night.

Do you have any statistics or other evidence to back up your claims?

Because the gist of your comments is that there is a serious problem on Dutch railways at night where significant numbers of black immigrants from Dutch Antilles, Surinam and especially Morocco are violently attacking lone travellers.

It doesn't take a genius to realise that if you are an immigrant from one of these countries, living in the Netherlands, and people are spreading these kinds of stories, it's not going to make your already difficult life much easier.

And your comments about "REAL" racism in Zimbabwe and other countries suggests that you don't think the racism experienced in Western European countries is "real". Don't you?
 

Old Timer

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BRX
So the gist of your post is that I am telling lies ?

Basis for this please.

I have quoted factually. If you have different facts then please quote them.

My comments are based on travelling, working and staying in Amsterdam with Dutch people. What are yours based on ?

This site might help if you care to speak with them and ask for crime statistics.
http://www.politie-amsterdam-amstelland.nl/frameset/

Also I am sure NS will be happy to comment
http://www.ns.nl/


You believe that there is real racism in the UK ? Your comment suggest a degree of immaturity.

By "Real" racism, I mean the kind where racial groups actually kill other racial groups.

If you want an example of racism in the UK you may want to look at marrying a Jewish woman for example, and see the consequences of that.

Here is the story of Noah Feldman, who was chosen by the American government to serve as the constitutional consultant for the Iraqi provisional government in drawing up their constitution.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-shmuley-boteach/stop-ostracizing-those-wh_b_57321.html

Racist to you ? or is it only white, middle class, Christians that can be ?


Now please stop trying to smear me as some sort of racist
 

BRX

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Old Timer, I have not spent much time recently on NS so I don't know.

You are the one making the allegations that there is a serious problem with black immigrants committing violent crimes on Dutch trains at night, and it is up to you to justify those claims.

I am afraid that anecdotes do not count as proper evidence.

No, it is not only white middle class christians that can be racist. I have witnessed racism from people of many different skin colours. I don't see the relevance of this point anyway. Does horrible racism committed against whites in Zimbabwe make any other racism committed against any other group anywhere else excusable?

I find your definition of "real" racism as being where people get killed rather strange. Why does someone have to be killed for it to count as "real" racism?

Anyway, ever heard of Stephen Lawrence?
 

Old Timer

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You are the one making the allegations that there is a serious problem with black immigrants committing violent crimes on Dutch trains at night, and it is up to you to justify those claims.

I am afraid that anecdotes do not count as proper evidence.
If you care to look you will see that I posted from a Dutch newspaper site.

It is a fact that the great majority of Black Riders are from the north Africas.

You have been given access to check those facts. Normally it is for the person who disputes the point to produce evidence to back their assertions. I note however that you admit to not having been in Holland recently.
 

BRX

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If you care to look you will see that I posted from a Dutch newspaper site.

You posted a garbled translation of an article that says absolutely nothing about the background of the people causing the trouble.

It is a fact that the great majority of Black Riders are from the north Africas.

Saying something is a fact doesn't make it a fact.

Is it also a fact that the majority of these people are violent criminals?


You have been given access to check those facts. Normally it is for the person who disputes the point to produce evidence to back their assertions.

Really? Do you not subscribe to the principle of "innocent until proven guilty"?
 

Old Timer

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... Do you not subscribe to the principle of "innocent until proven guilty"?
I think you seem to.

You have been given links to offical official sources where you can easily check the information posted.

If you can provide information to the contrary then feel free to post it, it really is no skin off my back personally, I am just sad that the topic has been hijacked.
 

BRX

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I think you seem to.

Yes, I do. Why don't you?

If I were to say "Old Timer drowns kittens for fun in his spare time" do you think it's up to me to prove it, or you to disprove it?

You have been given links to offical official sources where you can easily check the information posted.

You've given me two links to two Dutch sites. I don't speak Dutch. If the information is so readily available, why don't you point me to the relevant part of those websites where the statistics are published?

In any case, how exactly am I supposed to disprove it? You are committing the logical fallacy of the "argument from ignorance". If you don't know what that is, you can read about it here.


If you can provide information to the contrary then feel free to post it, it really is no skin off my back personally

When you take part in this kind of rumour-mongering without being able to substantiate the claims you are making, you share the responsibility for the kind of unpleasant consequences that can result.
 

Old Timer

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BRX
I really do not have the time, or the inclination, to end up in some sort of academic dispute with you over nuances and semantics.

It is quite clear to me (and others I imagine) the direction in that you are looking to move this topic.

It was always my understanding in debates that if you held a differing view point that it was your responsbility to propose the counter argument with opposing facts and figures. Obviously in your case you cannot.

However to hopefully conclude this matter. A little Googling has revealed the following :

In a critical essay on immigration published in 2002 Dutch Erasmus University Professor Arie van der Zwan pointed out that non-Western immigration has skyrocketed since the early 1970s.

In 1972, there were 55,000 so-called "guestworkers" in the Netherlands. Most of them were from backward regions in Turkey and Morocco. Twenty-five years later, by 1996 that is, their number had risen dramatically. There were now over 500,000 Turkish and Moroccan immigrants most of whom were dependent on welfare. (Ten times more Moroccan/Turkish immigrants than in 1972.)

According to van der Zwan only 20 percent of them had a job.

Here is an extract from an article in the Dutch business weekly "Elsevier" by the Dutch investigative reporter Emerson Vermaat which was looking at the economic costs of crime.
The problem in Holland and Belgium is not just that many of these immigrants depend on welfare, they also tend to visit doctors and hospitals much more frequenly than native Dutch. Many Moroccan and Turkish men marry their niece, so inter-family marriages and even inbreeding abound which does have an adverse effect on the health of children. A lot of Moroccan men and women suffer from diabetes. Schizofrenia and the Down Syndrom also occur more frequently than is the case with native Dutch.

Ethnic crime in the Netherlands A relatively high number of Turkish and especially Moroccan immigrants are involved in crime – both in the Netherlands and Belgium. This has been going on for years now, as has clearly been shown in detailed studies conducted by criminologists such as Frank Bovenkerk, Cyrille Fijnaut, Gerben Bruinsma and Marion van San. A Dutch Parliamentary Investigation Committee concluded in 1995/96 that "there is a disturbingly high level of direct or indirect involvement in organized crime from the country of origin by Surinamese, Moroccan and Turkish communities in the Netherlands." And a 1998 Dutch criminological study claims: "The police concluded that at least one member of all the Moroccan families in the Gooi (a rich part of the country located southeast of Amsterdam, V.) was either directly active in the hashish business or indirectly profiting from it."

Things have not improved since. A recent study on Dutch Moroccans by NRC Handelsblad reporter Paul Andersson Toussaint even claims that 70 percent of the Moroccan youths in Amsterdam have a police record. He quotes reliable sources who claim that it is the Moroccan parents who are largely to blame for this. They invariably instruct their children to look down on native Dutch. These Moroccan kids now behave like little street gang bosses harassing young Dutch women, robbing elderly ladies or stealing scooter-mobiles. The overburdened police are often incapable of really tackling this problem, partly because many victims are scared and intimidated. Consequently, they fail to report these crimes to the police. These youths – usually males – simply terrorize the streets. If someone does report them to the police they quickly deny everything, claiming they are victims of "racism." "Is is rarely mentioned, but there are a lot of criminal Moroccan fathers here," Mourad Taimounti told Andersson Toussaint. Taimounti, one the many good Dutch Moroccans, is involved a local initiative to stop harassment by Moroccan youths. For some reason, he is not afraid of being accused of racism.

Turkish and Turkish Kurdish men are involved in quite a lot of criminal liquidations (gangland killings), honor crimes, drug crimes and extortions. Two of them – Senol Ayhan Tuna and Ozan Kuteybin Turfanda – were on trial during the spectacular Holleeder Trial in Amsterdam (2007/2008). Turkish crime is not new. It is more than ten years ago that Frank Bovenkerk en Yücel Yesilgöz, two leading Dutch criminologists, published a book on the Turkish mafia. Dutch politicians tended to ignore the huge problem of ethnic crime in the big cities. Bovenkerk en Yesilgöz write that Amsterdam mayor Ed van Thijn (Labor Party) simply vetoed a decision to deal effectively with Turkish drug crime and the many drug related killings. He did not want the police to conduct "razzias" against a major ethnic community in Amsterdam, the mayor lamely said. He naively assumed it was possible to solve the problem of crime by just drinking coffee with these Turkish criminals. Fear of being accused of "racism" has always been a major obstacle to deal effectively with serious organized crime within ethnic communities. (Especially liberal politicians are falling for this trap, and not just in Holland or Belgium.)

Concluding comments

Certainly not all Moroccan immigrants in Belgium and Holland are involved in crime or terrorism, of course. Two Dutch journalists, Janny Groen and Annieke Kranenberg, recently published the book "Opstand der gematigden" ("Revolt of the moderates"). They show that there are many moderate Muslims (Moroccans, Turks and others) in the Netherlands who do not agree with radical viewpoints. The term "revolt" is slighty exaggerated, though, because too many moderate Muslims in Holland still do not protest loudly enough but prefer to keep silent. There is also the issue of crime. Unfortunately, this issue cannot simply be solved by vocal condemnations of these practices alone. Much more is needed and expected from the Muslim community, notably from the Dutch Moroccans. Many Moroccan criminal youngsters rarely visit mosques, others join some kind of jihadist network. They do not listen to the voice of the moderates anymore but consider them traitors.

Talking about moderates, when I was in Algeria and Morocco I saw more Western dressed women than in some parts of Amsterdam and Brussels. I had a tv interview with "Miss Algeria" in Algiers in 1998 and she was wearing jeans. She knew, of course, that the terrorists and the fanatics were targeting her, yet she showed the courage to ignore them. Forcing too many women to look like ghosts or traditional Catholic nuns is an important issue that the moderates should not fail to address either. This – Holland and Belgium – is not a traditional Moroccan or Turkish society, nor should it ever become one.

Emerson Vermaat is a Dutch investigative reporter specializing in crime and terrorism. Website: emersonvermaat.com.
Sources:
Arie van der Zwan, Waar blijft de ombuiging in het immigratiebeleid?, in: Socialisme en Democratie, 2002, number 4, p. 43.
Elsevier, August 1, 2009, p. 14-17 ("Tweehonderd miljard"). "De niet-westerse immigratie heeft tot en met dit jaar aldus berekend een negatief saldo van 216,4 miljard euro opgeleverd."
Joost Niemöller, Waarom vreest de politiek migratiecijfers? In: de Volkskrant (Netherlands), August 1, 2009, p. 12. "Nooit kwamen er zoveel immigranten naar Nederland als vorig jaar, namelijk 140.000." The number of immigrants entering the Netherlands last year was 140,000. Quite a lot came from Africa, by the way.
Enquêtecommissie Opsporingsmethoden, Inzake Opsporing (The Hague: Sdu Uitgevers, 1996), p. 39-41 ("...enkele tientallen procenten van de volwassen Turkse mannen in Amsterdam..."), p. 423 ("...onrustbarend groot...").
Cyrille Fijnaut, Frank Bovenkerk, Gerben Bruinsma and Henk van de Bunt, Organised Crime in the Netherlands (The Hague: Kluwer Law International, 1998), p. 84-87, 136. Page 87: Moroccan drug crime in "the Gooi."
Marion van San and Arjen Leerkes, Criminaliteit en criminalisering. Allochtone jongeren in België (Amsterdam: Amsterdam University Press, 2001), p. 49 ("Significante oververtegenwoordiging van Marokkaanse jongeren doet zich voor voor alle onderzochte delicttypen"), p. 102-115 130-143.
Marion van San, Van politiek correcte geesten mag criminaliteit onder allochtonen niet onderzocht worden, in: De Morgen (Belgium), December 20, 2001, p. 15. Paul Andersson Toussaint, Staatssecretaris of seriecrimineel. Het smalle pad van de Marokkaan (Amsterdam: Bert Bakker Publishers, 2009), p. 33, 39, 40, 47-49, 66, 67.
Paul Andersson Toussaint, Er zijn niet slechts een paar criminele Marokkanen, in: NRC Handelsblad (Netherlands), May 23, 2009, p. 4, 5 (Saturday supplement "Opinie en debat"). Quote from Mourad Taimounti.
Landelijk Parket, Requisitoir van het Openbaar Ministerie in de stafzaken tegen Maruf Mrzic, Willem Frederik Holleeder, and others part I and II (November 2007). The author partly followed this trial.
Frank Bovenkerk and Yücel Yesilgöz, De mafia van Turkije (Amsterdam: Meulenhoff, 1998, p. 301, 302. Amsterdam mayor Ed van Thijn was drinking coffee with Turkish criminals.
Frank Bovenkerk, Misdaadprofielen (Amsterdam: Meulenhoff, 2001), p. 122-159 ("the multicultural underworld").
De Standaard (Belgium), August 2, 2009, p. 13 ("Een tevreden gevangene wil niet ontsnappen"). "Buitenlanders maken 44 procent van de totale gevangenispopulatie uit."
Various Belgian media reports 23 July-11 August 2009 (Sekkaki gang).
De Morgen (Belgium), August 5, 2009, p. 3 ("Gemaskerde handlangers zwaaien met wapens in volle zittingszaal").
De Standaard, August 5, 2009, p. 1-7 ("Niet meer uit te leggen"). "Daarbij hieven ze het kind in de lucht en zetten een wapen tegen het hoofd."
El País, August 3, 2009, p. 6 ("Un americano en Al Qaeda"). Bryan Neal Viñas' mother is from Argentina, his father is from Peru. His parents are divorced. Originally a Roman Catholic, he converted to Islam in 2004 and was later recruited by Al-Qaeda. He traveled to Pakistan in September 2007.
De Morgen, July 2009, p. 4 ("Amerikaanse Al Qaedastrijder trainde met Belgische rekruten"). Viñas, Garsallaoui (also spelled: Garsalloui) and Malika El Aroud. De Standaard (online), April 17, 2009 ("Extremisten trainden in Afghanistan"). Garsalaoui recruited jihadists in Belgium.
Author's files on terrorist networks in Belgium.
De Standaard, July 29, 2009, p. 4, 5 ("Abdelkader Belliraj levenslang de cel in").
De Morgen, July 29, 2009, p. 4 ("Abdelkader Belliraj krijgt levenslang in Marokko").
General Intelligence and Security Service, Annual Report 2008 (The Hague: AIVD, 2009), p. 28, 29.
Janny Groen and Annieke Kranenberg, Opstand der gematigden. De groeiende weerbaarheid van Nederlandse moslims (Amsterdam: Meulenhoff, 2009).
©2009 Emerson Vermaat. All rights reserved.

This really is my last on this subject, which has gone way and beyond the direction I had originally intended, which was to show how the Dutch Police are more pro-active than our Police in dealing with on-train crime.
 

BRX

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The articles you quote state that there is a higher level of criminality amongst immigrant communities in the Netherland. This may well be true.

But your original comments were that the "vast majority" of the troublesome late night railway travellers were "black immigrants" and furthermore that they were violent criminals, routinely carry guns and knives, and assault people.

That is quite a specific claim that is not substantiated by the articles you quote.

I live in London where there are also large immigrant communities, and it is probably also true that levels of criminality are higher amongst those populations than others, for all sorts of reasons.

In London there are also troublesome travellers to be found on public transport at night, doing stuff similar to that described in the article - smoking, feet on seats, drunkenness and so on. However, the "vast majority" of them are not "black immigrants" despite what certain people might think from reading stuff in the popular media.

This is why I am sceptical about your claims - your specific claims about late night rail travellers. It it is possible that you are correct and if you can show me the evidence of this I would be happy to accept it. However, I think you have to be very careful about making that kind of statement because the fact is, that the more people scaremonger about public transport being taken over by roaming gangs of violent "black immigrants", the more likely it is that the many black immigrants who go about their business without causing anyone any trouble (probably late at night doing the cleaning jobs Dutch people don't want to do, as it happens) are to experience the kind of racism that you don't consider "real" but that I am pretty sure doesn't make life terribly easy.

For the record I am not accusing you of being a racist. I have been careful not to say that at any point. Let's just say that some of your comments have caused my eyebrows to be raised. I recognise your concern that sometimes these issues are shied away from because of an excessive tendency for some people to cry "racist" at the slightest mention of anything to do with skin colour, and I do recognise that this tends to lead to some members of the "native" population to feel that they are persecuted or ignored.

However, there are good reasons why people might tend to over-vigilance when it comes to prejudice based on people's skin colour or ethnic or cultural background.

There is of course a whole other discussion to be had about why the immigrant communities exist in the first place, and why they might tend to see higher levels of criminality. That's not really a discussion to be held on a railway enthusiast's forum, though.
 

4SRKT

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It might have been easier had you not posted the translation entirely in Dutch syntax Old Timer. I thought you could speak reasonable Dutch, so you should really have translated using English word order, which would have delivered better clarity.
 
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