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Death Penalty for Violent Crimes

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Mutant Lemming

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Don't really care what the suspect looks like but if found guilty of this vicious crime 'in the public interest' they should really be executed - they will always be a threat to everyone around them and keeping them incarcerated is more inhumane and costly. There are some nasty violent people out there and although the death penalty isn't a great deterrent it will eliminate any further risk to the rest of us.
 
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Journeyman

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Don't really care what the suspect looks like but if found guilty of this vicious crime 'in the public interest' they should really be executed - they will always be a threat to everyone around them and keeping them incarcerated is more inhumane and costly. There are some nasty violent people out there and although the death penalty isn't a great deterrent it will eliminate any further risk to the rest of us.

Execution in America is far, far more expensive than keeping someone locked up for life, even if we're talking 50+ years in jail.
 

Dieseldriver

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Execution in America is far, far more expensive than keeping someone locked up for life, even if we're talking 50+ years in jail.
I'm not disputing what you've just said, I'm genuinely curious. How does an execution cost such a large amount of money?
 

cactustwirly

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Don't really care what the suspect looks like but if found guilty of this vicious crime 'in the public interest' they should really be executed - they will always be a threat to everyone around them and keeping them incarcerated is more inhumane and costly. There are some nasty violent people out there and although the death penalty isn't a great deterrent it will eliminate any further risk to the rest of us.

No, because miscarriages of justice happen, and you could potentially be killing an innocent person.
And I feel that a lifetimes incarceration is a worse punishment than death.
 

A Challenge

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The thing is that a life sentence isn't actually being in prison until you die (well six months for an old person might turn out to be a life sentence, but that is a different issue) for most people, I want to say it is about 20 years, with time off for good behaviour, though don't quote me on that.
 

Esker-pades

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To echo the miscarriage of justice point:
This on Gwynne Evans, one of the last people to be executed in the UK:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-42370943
'Abnormal personality'

After his appearance in court, Gwynne Evans was remanded in custody at Durham prison, where he was seen by the senior medical officer, P J Waddington.

There was no evidence of medical disorder, he wrote. Evans was "correctly orientated". In other words, "He knew where he was and he was fully aware of the reasons for his arrest and his committal to prison."

Waddington described Evans as being "of spare physique", just over 5ft 9in tall, with no physical ailments except flat feet and some small cuts on his face, possibly from picking pimples.

In another report the following month, he noted that from a very young age Evans had experienced psychological problems. As a boy he'd been referred to a child guidance clinic (elsewhere identified as Dovenby mental hospital) because he was "untrustworthy, lacked moral sense, was untruthful, and inclined to steal".

Evans confused truth with fantasy. "Evans believes that he was born in Innsbruck and his reasons for doing so are quite absurd…" the doctor wrote.

He said he was married to a German girl, and had two children - which also seemed entirely invented.

Evans claimed too that he'd been employed by Securicor for a year, and there become an expert in judo. In fact he'd only worked there for a week; he left as soon as his references had been checked, presumably because they were unsatisfactory.

He lied constantly. The doctor said these were for the most part "prestige lies" to enhance his standing.

On four occasions he joined the services, only to be medically discharged.

Evans had enlisted at 17 in the Border Regiment, where his fabrications led to him being sent for a psychiatric assessment. "This soldier was sent to me by his training wing officer," wrote one doctor, "on account of his frequent telling of big lies which he apparently believed himself." His first expulsion followed four months later.

In less than a year, he signed up for another regiment, the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers - but here too, his lies brought about his downfall. Within three months he was before a medical board which recommended discharge on the grounds of "personality inadequacy".

His commanding officer remarked: "He is a failure. He cannot make friends because of feeling superior and telling complete fairy tales all the time."

The following year he joined the Royal Air Force, but was quickly discharged on the grounds of "nervous instability". In 1963, he signed up for the Army again, under the name of Evans, but was soon found out, and discharged for the final time.

Waddington, the medical officer at Durham Prison, acknowledged Evans's "abnormal personality" and thought most doctors would consider him an individual with a "psychopathic personality, using this term in the broadest sense".

But he didn't believe this amounted to an "abnormality of mind" that would substantially impair his "mental responsibility for his acts and omissions" - the legal definition of diminished responsibility under the 1957 Homicide Act.

Evans's own lawyers commissioned Dr G F Duggan Keen, an experienced consultant psychiatrist, to examine him. He noted that Evans had been employed in 32 jobs, by his own account, from the age of 15, excluding the spells in the Army and RAF. Many had just lasted a few weeks, due he thought, to Evans's problems forming relationships, and excessive drinking.

After four meetings with Evans, he said there was "absolutely no doubt in my mind that this man is a psychopathic personality". But he could not identify a condition or disease. He said Evans was not "subnormal", nor schizophrenic, nor epileptic. He too concluded that Evans's mental responsibility was not "substantially impaired".

Neither Waddington nor Duggan Keen explained why they came to that conclusion, and this surprises Dr Tim McInerney, a consultant forensic psychiatrist at the Bethlem Royal hospital in South London, who often gives expert assessments in murder cases.

"If, as an expert now, giving advice to the courts or to a jury as to why I don't support diminished [responsibility] I would have to explain very clearly why I reached that position," he says.

The psychiatric reports are cursory by modern standards, running to just a few pages. Though McInerny says that was the style at the time, John Cooper QC, an experienced defence barrister and professor of law, says their brevity strikes him as a cause for concern.

"For those reports to be relied upon without them being tested, without further questions being asked of them, without further experts being used, as far as I'm concerned, is quite startling. And I would say quite startling not just to the modern eye but also at the time."

But these psychiatric judgements would play an important role in the events that led to Gwynne Evans's conviction - and his hanging.
And there are so many more like it.

Ian Hislop has a good argument here:
 

trash80

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Interesting if you look at why wants the death penalty its often the same people who are always calling the government useless and inept... and they want to give them the power of life and death over people lol
 

DynamicSpirit

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No, because miscarriages of justice happen, and you could potentially be killing an innocent person.

That's a problem if you're talking about a person who is convicted of one single very serious crime and given the death penalty. But I do sometimes wonder whether the death penalty might be more appropriate for people who routinely commit and have been convicted of crimes: The kind of person who, as soon as he's released from prison, goes off to assault or rob someone else. In that case, the problem of an occasional miscarriage of justice would seem to be less relevant: Let's say you're convicted of violent robbery. And - as a result of taking into account that you also had 10 previous convictions on separate occasions for violent robbery or something similar, your sentence gets upgraded to the death penalty. In that case, does it morally make much difference if only 9 of those convictions were correct: You're arguably still someone who has been given more chances than you deserve.

Another issue is: If it's a serial offender, then by not applying the death penalty, could the result be that another innocent person suffers life-changing injuries. very soon after the offender gets out of prison?
 

jumble

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Mod - Split from this thread.

A pre-advice to please keep this discussion pleasant.


Don't really care what the suspect looks like but if found guilty of this vicious crime 'in the public interest' they should really be executed - they will always be a threat to everyone around them and keeping them incarcerated is more inhumane and costly. There are some nasty violent people out there and although the death penalty isn't a great deterrent it will eliminate any further risk to the rest of us.

My own view is simple
If a country has a death penalty the price we will pay is that inevitably sooner or later that state are going to execute an innocent person.
I feel very strongly this is far too high a price to pay for any civilized country's government to be responsible for this.

In addition I doubt it would deter the mentally ill at all.

Regards Jumble
 

DarloRich

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Will the death penalty stop awful crimes being committed? Do people still murder each other in America? Do people still abuse children in America? Do people still commit espionage or treason in America? Is rape still committed in America?

Surely, if people in favour of the death penalty are to be believed, these crimes must be a thing of the past in states in the USA that have the death penalty. Are there any statistics that could help us here?
 

pedr

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The thing is that a life sentence isn't actually being in prison until you die (well six months for an old person might turn out to be a life sentence, but that is a different issue) for most people, I want to say it is about 20 years, with time off for good behaviour, though don't quote me on that.
To be precise on this: life sentences in England and Wales are made up of two parts. The “life” element means that the offender is subject to the potential for imprisonment for the rest of his or her life, but most people sentenced to life imprisonment will be released at some point. Where a court passes a life sentence - either where that is the mandatory penalty, for murder, or where it is the penalty chosen by the judge for very serious offending - the judge sets a period of imprisonment during which the prisoner cannot be released except in truly exceptional circumstances. This period is determined by reference to law and sentencing guidelines, with the starting point for most murders being 15 years. After this period the parole board can consider releasing the prisoner “on licence”, that is subject to recall to prison should there be further offending. It is possible for the judge to determine that a prisoner never be released, where the danger of future serious violence is very high indeed and the crime committed makes that appropriate. The starting point for murder with a knife appears to be 25 years.

It’s worth noting in this context that a minimum term of 15 years is equivalent to being sentenced to 30 years, as normal English prison sentences are served 50% in prison and 50% on licence. This means that most people sentenced to life will be in prison considerably longer than the vast majority of people sentenced to fixed sentences.
 

AlterEgo

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The death penalty isn't a deterrent but it is justice for murder. (Assuming you have the right person!)
 

AlterEgo

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No its not justice its revenge

The two are not mutually exclusive concepts.

In any case, how could it be revenge? The victim or their associates don't get to exact the punishment. Would imprisoning someone for the offence of kidnap be revenge in your eyes? If so, why?
 

trash80

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Well any punishment is revenge from a point of view, the problem with the DP is that it's a bit hard luck sorry if you have the wrong person. Plus we should be aiming as a society to be better not the same level as the bad elements.
 

DarloRich

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The death penalty isn't a deterrent but it is justice for murder. (Assuming you have the right person!)

While that statement may, or may not, be correct ( depending on your point of view) to my mind there are 4 strands to the concept of sentence in the UK:

  1. Deterrence ( both general and individual and I suggest the death penalty advocates lean on the first)
  2. Punishment to, or obtaining retribution from, those who have committed crimes.
  3. Encouragement of personal reform of those who are sent to prison.
  4. Protect the public from those who commit crimes
They have to be consider holistically. Too often we focus on one other the others. The death penalty may be the ultimate punishment but it does not seem to be the ultimate deterrence. It may protect the public from violent criminals but it does not deter violent criminals from committing violent crime nor does it help anyone to learn from the error of their ways. Where is the balance?
 

Journeyman

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I'm not disputing what you've just said, I'm genuinely curious. How does an execution cost such a large amount of money?

Because a prisoner sentenced to death has the right to go through an extremely lengthy appeals process, and the legal costs are astronomical.
 

Journeyman

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The death penalty isn't a deterrent but it is justice for murder. (Assuming you have the right person!)

I'd say it isn't justice at all, but you're certainly right on it not being a deterrent - many murders in America are spur-of-the-moment things that happen during the commitment of other crimes, or while the murderer is on drugs/drunk etc, so they're hardly going to stop and think "hmm, I'd better not do this because I might be executed".
 

AlterEgo

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While that statement may, or may not, be correct ( depending on your point of view) to my mind there are 4 strands to the concept of sentence in the UK:

  1. Deterrence ( both general and individual and I suggest the death penalty advocates lean on the first)
  2. Punishment to, or obtaining retribution from, those who have committed crimes.
  3. Encouragement of personal reform of those who are sent to prison.
  4. Protect the public from those who commit crimes
They have to be consider holistically. Too often we focus on one other the others. The death penalty may be the ultimate punishment but it does not seem to be the ultimate deterrence. It may protect the public from violent criminals but it does not deter violent criminals from committing violent crime nor does it help anyone to learn from the error of their ways. Where is the balance?

But the weighting of those four aspects changes with every case.

For example, if I steal £1,000 from my employer to pay off a drug habit, I can expect the criminal justice system to:

1. Impose a sentence that sends a message that this behaviour is wrong and should not be tolerated in a civilised society.
2. Make me pay back what I stole, where appropriate, plus any other costs the affected party may have incurred.
3. Sentence me to (likely) community payback and refer me to the probation service.
4. Assess whether the public needs protecting from me. Likely not, if 1, 2 and 3 are satisfactorily met.

There is very little deterrence to the crime of murder. A serial murderer does not deserve the chance of redemption or reform and should be killed.
 

Lucan

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Execution in America is far, far more expensive than keeping someone locked up for life, even if we're talking 50+ years in jail.
That is only so because the American legal system permits endless and arcane appeal procedures. The actual execution is trivially inexpensive. As for reducing murder rates, many social factors are involved, including, as is pointed out, that the "death" penalty in the USA is no sure thing because of the good chance of getting out of it by legal delays and wrangling. What life imprisonment (and prolonged wrangling) has lost compared with the death sentence is the element of Gothic horror - the sense that the convicted is being sent to Hell. Imprisonment may be uncomfortable, but it lacks that element of horror as a deterrent.

The abolition of the death penalty in the UK came after what seems in retrospect to have been deliberate efforts to discredit it. I was a child at the time and remember the rightful public outrage in the cases of Ruth Ellis, who shot a pig of a lover, and Derek Bentley who was hanged for a shooting known to have been done by someone else (Craig) and while Bentley himself was already arrested. These were very different cases from random "terrorist" killings for which I believe the death penalty should be used. The trouble back then was that there was little or no room for discretion.

There was also a betrayal in that, whatever the terms of the abolition were, in the popular mind "life imprisonment" meant just that - imprisonment until death. That is certainly what my parents and the grown-ups in their circle understood, as I listened to their conversations. They would not have liked the fact that perpetrators would be released after a time, often to re-offend as we know - my parents, who lived long enough to see murderers being released, didn't.

As for miscarrriages of justice, that can happen with imprisonment too. Someone found innocent after 10 years inside is not going to get their youth back again. So should we abolish all punishment in case the court gets it wrong?
 

GB

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To be precise on this: life sentences in England and Wales are made up of two parts. The “life” element means that the offender is subject to the potential for imprisonment for the rest of his or her life, but most people sentenced to life imprisonment will be released at some point. Where a court passes a life sentence - either where that is the mandatory penalty, for murder, or where it is the penalty chosen by the judge for very serious offending - the judge sets a period of imprisonment during which the prisoner cannot be released except in truly exceptional circumstances. This period is determined by reference to law and sentencing guidelines, with the starting point for most murders being 15 years. After this period the parole board can consider releasing the prisoner “on licence”, that is subject to recall to prison should there be further offending. It is possible for the judge to determine that a prisoner never be released, where the danger of future serious violence is very high indeed and the crime committed makes that appropriate. The starting point for murder with a knife appears to be 25 years.

It’s worth noting in this context that a minimum term of 15 years is equivalent to being sentenced to 30 years, as normal English prison sentences are served 50% in prison and 50% on licence. This means that most people sentenced to life will be in prison considerably longer than the vast majority of people sentenced to fixed sentences.

There should be no such thing as "out on license" for murder and other extremely serious crimes. You should do the full stretch actually in prison.
 

trash80

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As for miscarrriages of justice, that can happen with imprisonment too. Someone found innocent after 10 years inside is not going to get their youth back again. So should we abolish all punishment in case the court gets it wrong?

How trivially you dismiss the difference of someone having spent years in prison wrongfully compared to being killed.
 

ChiefPlanner

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That is only so because the American legal system permits endless and arcane appeal procedures. The actual execution is trivially inexpensive. As for reducing murder rates, many social factors are involved, including, as is pointed out, that the "death" penalty in the USA is no sure thing because of the good chance of getting out of it by legal delays and wrangling. What life imprisonment (and prolonged wrangling) has lost compared with the death sentence is the element of Gothic horror - the sense that the convicted is being sent to Hell. Imprisonment may be uncomfortable, but it lacks that element of horror as a deterrent.

The abolition of the death penalty in the UK came after what seems in retrospect to have been deliberate efforts to discredit it. I was a child at the time and remember the rightful public outrage in the cases of Ruth Ellis, who shot a pig of a lover, and Derek Bentley who was hanged for a shooting known to have been done by someone else (Craig) and while Bentley himself was already arrested. These were very different cases from random "terrorist" killings for which I believe the death penalty should be used. The trouble back then was that there was little or no room for discretion.

There was also a betrayal in that, whatever the terms of the abolition were, in the popular mind "life imprisonment" meant just that - imprisonment until death. That is certainly what my parents and the grown-ups in their circle understood, as I listened to their conversations. They would not have liked the fact that perpetrators would be released after a time, often to re-offend as we know - my parents, who lived long enough to see murderers being released, didn't.

As for miscarrriages of justice, that can happen with imprisonment too. Someone found innocent after 10 years inside is not going to get their youth back again. So should we abolish all punishment in case the court gets it wrong?

There was a very strong campaign over the murders at 10 Rillington Place , home of notorious killer J R Christie - an investigatory book by Ludovic Kennedy focused on the execution of Timothy Evans in 1950 - only for him to eventually receive a pardon in the mid 1960's. Very controversial. Christie carried out at least 4 murders after the Evans case. Well worth a read.
 

bnm

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If you're African American and come from certain deprived areas of the United States, your life expectancy is actually better if you are convicted of a capital crime and sentenced to death.

The UK doesn't need and shouldn't have the death penalty.
 

EM2

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A number of high-profile murderers in the UK have either killed themselves in custody, attempted to do so, or threatened to do so.
The state killing them just gives them what they want.
 

Journeyman

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That is only so because the American legal system permits endless and arcane appeal procedures.

Isn't that only right and fair? If you were sentenced to death, wouldn't you want a chance to properly appeal your conviction? If the state is willing to kill people in the name of justice, it has to have some levels of safeguard, although in America they're still woefully insufficient and still result in some highly questionable executions (although my own opinion is that they're all absolutely inexcusable).

The British capital punishment system executed people mere days after their sentencing and provided far too little facility for people to clear their names, and there were some truly horrendous miscarriages of justice in the final years.

The actual execution is trivially inexpensive.

Nothing about capital punishment is trivial.
 

richa2002

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Interesting if you look at why wants the death penalty its often the same people who are always calling the government useless and inept... and they want to give them the power of life and death over people lol
Governments don't sentence people. Judge and jury does.
 
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