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Debit card declined

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najaB

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Sorry, I probably wasn't clear in my post - I was suggesting the TOCs, not the card issuers, change their websites and display posters warning that not all cards can be used on board.
The issuers could, if appropriate, mention in their literature that the cards require each transaction to be approved online.
No, you were clear - the fault is on my side. I agree that posters and making changes to the TOC's websites are simple and effective changes to make.

What I was saying is that as far as the card issuers are concerned there isn't a problem - the cards are working exactly as intended. So from their perspective, why should they change their literature/websites to fix ATOC's problem?
 
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bicbasher

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Is it the general rule for adults that if they have a basic current account which doesn't allow you to go overdrawn that they're online and you can't use them if attempting to purchase a ticket on-board?
 

455driver

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Why does the railway have to pay out to fix a problem which was caused by the banks doing away with cards that were clearly known to be on-line only and were named to make it easy for everyone, electron etc!

The banks have caused the problem so that everyone could feel 'included' so the banks can sort it out!
 
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PermitToTravel

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Is it the general rule for adults that if they have a basic current account which doesn't allow you to go overdrawn that they're online and you can't use them if attempting to purchase a ticket on-board?

Yes, but it's also possible to have an account with an overdraft and with an online only card.
 

cjmillsnun

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Why does the railway have to pay out to fix a problem which was caused by the banks doing away with cards that were clearly known to be on-line only and were named to make it easy for everyone, electon etc!

The banks have caused the problem so that everyone could feel 'included' so the banks can sort it out!

Agreed. The cards are still the same old Electron in the background.

I should know, I have one. Do I whine about it? No, I use them within the limitations that I know it has. For example it doesn't always work in TVMs. For that reason, I normally buy my tickets on-line in advance and collect, as there is no need to authorise payment in the TVM.

Personally the banks should be more up-front where a card has been issued as online only (the BIN starts 4508 75 or 4917 or 4844). These cards are online only and will always be online only.
 

najaB

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Why does the railway have to pay out to fix a problem which was caused by the banks doing away with cards that were clearly known to be on-line only and were named to make it easy for everyone, electon etc!

The banks have caused the problem so that everyone could feel 'included' so the banks can sort it out!
I don't think many are suggesting that the railway throw tons of money at the problem, but it wouldn't be unreasonable for the NRE and TOC websites and posters be updated to tell people that it's the bank's fault if their card doesn't work. For example:
Payment Methods said:
Credit/Debit/Charge Cards

All National Rail train companies accept the major cards such as Visa, Visa Delta, MasterCard, Maestro and Amex, for purchasing tickets from ticket offices, ticket vending machines and their websites. Most cards can also be used to purchase tickets on the train, but some card issuers restrict the ways that the cards can be used, and you will be required to pay with an alternate method. Some train companies also accept Diners Club International, Solo and Electron.
 

island

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Is it the general rule for adults that if they have a basic current account which doesn't allow you to go overdrawn that they're online and you can't use them if attempting to purchase a ticket on-board?

Varies by bank. I think the most you could say is that if a person has a basic current account, it is more likely that they won't be able to purchase a ticket on board than if they have a full-featured current account.
 

rs101

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Why does the railway have to pay out to fix a problem which was caused by the banks doing away with cards that were clearly known to be on-line only and were named to make it easy for everyone, electron etc!

The banks have caused the problem so that everyone could feel 'included' so the banks can sort it out!

The only time the vast majority of card holders will discover the limitations of online cards is when they try and buy a ticket on board. It simply doesn't cause any issues in pretty much any other use of the cards. Hence why the railway should have to publicise that it does not have the facility to take all credit/debit cards on board. That's surely just basic customer service?

A real example from my 6th form college days. The local bus service stopped accepting £20 notes (rural route where return fare was over £6) . They included a warning on the printed timetables at bus stops and even a sticker on the bus window. That way, everyone knew the situation before they tried to board.
 

WillPS

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I would strongly object to any change in the rules which excludes online only cards, simply because the vast majority of them are not clearly marked as such. I also think that any wording in the terms of the use of the card are irrelevant, overridden by the statement which is made clearly on every enclosing letter I've ever received stating "you can use your card anywhere you see the Visa/Maestro logo" or words to that effect. Comparisons with bus companies rejecting £20 notes are worthless; you can see a £20 note is a £20 note because it is marked very clearly as such.

The fact of the matter is simple - card processing technology is constantly evolving.

When credit/debit/cheque guarantee cards were first implemented, there was no automated method of recording the transaction; so imprint machines were typically used.

At some stage, some boffin found that it was practical to record all the necessary details in a magnetic strip, which allowed for such transactions to be automated. At first, this was an option for all merchants, but over time the banks reduced the liability which they would accept if an imprint was taken over an electronically recorded swipe. Eventually the banks removed any liability for such transactions, and insisted such transactions were entirely at the merchant's risk.

Similar for Chip transactions - at first they were an option, and both consumer and retailer could opt to swipe or use the chip (if there was one). Eventually the banks insisted that all cards were chip-equipped, and that every such card had to be completed using the chip - otherwise the banks would not accept liability.

The same thing is happening with the authorisation process itself. Solo/Electron were implemented as online-only cards, with separate labels to allow customers to easily see where they could and could not use their card - this was the mid-90s and many retailers were not suitably equipped to allow them. Fifteen years later(!!), they took the decision that merchants had enough time to get their ducks in a line and removed the differentiation - which allowed them far greater control over which cards they can trigger the "online only" status - this is a good move for consumers on both sides of the divide. Down the line, it's obvious to me at least that all cards will be "online only"; and that the option of offline authorisation from merchants will be removed altogether from those who use it (except in emergencies as with imprint readers; and then with no liability for failed transactions/chargebacks/etc).

The railways cannot simply ignore the progression of card technologies. They must either accept Visa cards (as they claim to now), or not (on board).
 
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najaB

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Down the line, it's obvious to me at least that all cards will be "online only"...
I suspect that day is a *LONG* way away if it ever happens - as this is the opposite direction to the way the payment card industry is moving. Contactless transactions are designed to be quick and convenient - having to wait for an authorisation every time will slow the process down. Also, it would prevent transactions in any location where a data connection was unavailable - e.g. aircraft and, believe it or not, on board trains. :p
 

cjmillsnun

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I would strongly object to any change in the rules which excludes online only cards, simply because the vast majority of them are not clearly marked as such. I also think that any wording in the terms of the use of the card are irrelevant, overridden by the statement which is made clearly on every enclosing letter I've ever received stating "you can use your card anywhere you see the Visa/Maestro logo" or words to that effect. Comparisons with bus companies rejecting £20 notes are worthless; you can see a £20 note is a £20 note because it is marked very clearly as such.

The fact of the matter is simple - card processing technology is constantly evolving.

When credit/debit/cheque guarantee cards were first implemented, there was no automated method of recording the transaction; so imprint machines were typically used.

At some stage, some boffin found that it was practical to record all the necessary details in a magnetic strip, which allowed for such transactions to be automated. At first, this was an option for all merchants, but over time the banks reduced the liability which they would accept if an imprint was taken over an electronically recorded swipe. Eventually the banks removed any liability for such transactions, and insisted such transactions were entirely at the merchant's risk.

Similar for Chip transactions - at first they were an option, and both consumer and retailer could opt to swipe or use the chip (if there was one). Eventually the banks insisted that all cards were chip-equipped, and that every such card had to be completed using the chip - otherwise the banks would not accept liability.

The same thing is happening with the authorisation process itself. Solo/Electron were implemented as online-only cards, with separate labels to allow customers to easily see where they could and could not use their card - this was the mid-90s and many retailers were not suitably equipped to allow them. Fifteen years later(!!), they took the decision that merchants had enough time to get their ducks in a line and removed the differentiation - which allowed them far greater control over which cards they can trigger the "online only" status - this is a good move for consumers on both sides of the divide. Down the line, it's obvious to me at least that all cards will be "online only"; and that the option of offline authorisation from merchants will be removed altogether from those who use it (except in emergencies as with imprint readers; and then with no liability for failed transactions/chargebacks/etc).

The railways cannot simply ignore the progression of card technologies. They must either accept Visa cards (as they claim to now), or not (on board).

The railways are not ignoring the progression of card technologies, you are ignoring the fact that the main reason that online only cards exist is some people are a credit risk, are under 18 or are in the process of changing accounts.

In the case of the first and second cases it may be illegal to allow an overdraft (it certainly is to an undischarged bankrupt)

The change is in name only, the authorising technology has not changed, however they face specific challenges, namely getting the online bit working to allow authorisation inside a Faraday cage which is very often in radio dead areas. The other area that has the same issue is also a transport market and that is aircraft.

Even if the replacement for Avantix mobile allows for online transactions, there will be instances where it won't work (the highlands or the Welsh valleys for example).

Are you now saying that the vast majority of people who have offline cards that currently work on trains, will now not be able to use their cards?

That just isn't going to happen, period.

It is down to the banks to be honest with their customers with online only cards and tell them so, including telling them that there are some locations that their card will be declined.

Online only cards are still Electron cards underneath. Some of my card receipts still stay Electron.

It is Visa and the banks that are being dishonest, not the railways.
 

martynbristow

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The majority of cards have simplified.
Many years ago I had a VISA Electron card and it caused lots of issues.
Its NOT to do with the online card thing with Visa electron. Visa Electron wasn't supported by some Merchant Services.
I couldn't use my card to do mail order or in some locations for example GNER, but most retailers accepted it. Its since be merged mainly with the Visa brand.

The ability to pay depends on a lot of things, contactless is not an 'online' transaction, and only goes one way, you have a fraud limit which is variable and a payment limit of currently £20. You can pay for a lot more or less before it triggers a response.

My advise is always have alternative payment, I generally have 2-3 cards on me at all times and have a little cash.

Payment methods are moving on but its not a simple thing. Avantics is off-line only (I believe) but on a private railway I work on we use GPRS (mobile) and Broadband, which brings there own problems!

Some people are not permitted credit for being under 18 or because of court orders, perhaps the bank should tell you this clearly but they spout so much at you its easy to miss.
 

WillPS

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I suspect that day is a *LONG* way away if it ever happens - as this is the opposite direction to the way the payment card industry is moving. Contactless transactions are designed to be quick and convenient - having to wait for an authorisation every time will slow the process down. Also, it would prevent transactions in any location where a data connection was unavailable - e.g. aircraft and, believe it or not, on board trains. :p
Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe the banks will insist that all non-contactless transactions will need to authorise online.
The railways are not ignoring the progression of card technologies, you are ignoring the fact that the main reason that online only cards exist is some people are a credit risk, are under 18 or are in the process of changing accounts.

In the case of the first and second cases it may be illegal to allow an overdraft (it certainly is to an undischarged bankrupt)

The change is in name only, the authorising technology has not changed, however they face specific challenges, namely getting the online bit working to allow authorisation inside a Faraday cage which is very often in radio dead areas. The other area that has the same issue is also a transport market and that is aircraft.

Even if the replacement for Avantix mobile allows for online transactions, there will be instances where it won't work (the highlands or the Welsh valleys for example).

Are you now saying that the vast majority of people who have offline cards that currently work on trains, will now not be able to use their cards?

That just isn't going to happen, period.

It is down to the banks to be honest with their customers with online only cards and tell them so, including telling them that there are some locations that their card will be declined.

Online only cards are still Electron cards underneath. Some of my card receipts still stay Electron.

It is Visa and the banks that are being dishonest, not the railways.
The reason the differentiation between Electron and Debit (or "DELTA" as some applications still refer to it) has been removed is so the banks can change a card's permission ad-hoc. A customer who is switching banks is just one example of when the bank might want to do this, it could also be applied temporarily in response to increased/unusual activity potentially.

How would you like the bank to "be honest" with customers under these circumstances? Replace the Visa logo on their card with an epaper display which indicates when their card behaves as a Visa and when it's behaving as Electron? You're free to have your opinion but I don't believe this is a matter of honesty on the part of the banks at all.

Customers should not need to know any longer what their Visa card processes as - be it behaving as a Visa, Connect, Delta or Electron card underneath.
 
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cjmillsnun

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Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe the banks will insist that all non-contactless transactions will need to authorise online.
The reason the differentiation between Electron and Debit (or "DELTA" as some applications still refer to it) has been removed is so the banks can change a card's permission ad-hoc. A customer who is switching banks is just one example of when the bank might want to do this, it could also be applied temporarily in response to increased/unusual activity potentially.

You have never given proof for this reason for the change.

As someone who worked in retail when Chip and PIN was introduced, I learned a few things. When a card could phone home, it would. Our machine always attempted to contact the bank for authorisation. The change to not allow an offline authorisation could be done then (and was on occasion) precisely for the reason you gave (unusual activity. Online attempts would decline as well once this flag was set). It was then reset on the first online use after the customer had verified with their bank that the transactions were genuine.

Obviously on a Delta, Maestro or a credit card it would indeed allow a transaction up to a certain amount (I seem to recall £100 on Delta, Visa Credit and MasterCard and £50 on Maestro) should our machine not be able to contact Streamline (who we used). However had the flag disallowing offline transactions been set, the card would decline.

As for disallowing offline transactions completely in the future. Not going to happen. Offline transactions exist as a backup to those who are deemed eligible by their banks.

I suspect the reason the Electron branding almost disappeared (it's beginning to make a comeback but only on basic bank accounts for example http://www.halifax.co.uk/bankaccounts/current-accounts/other-bank-accounts/basic-bank-account/) was more an effort to remove some of the prejudices that some retailers had. Some of my colleagues would not accept an Electron card, despite the fact that our processing system would authorise them as normal.

The IIN (Issuer Identity Number) previously known as the BIN generally identifies the issuing bank and card network (Visa or MasterCard). All Visa cards start with 4 and generally the first 4-6 numbers are unique to a bank. There are exceptions.

Cards with the IIN 4508, 4917 or 4844 (there are others I can't remember) are all permanently online only. They cannot be changed to offline authorisation as Visa have set these in stone. They are the original Electron IINs and are used by multiple banks worldwide.

Customers with cards with those IINs should be told by their bank that their card is online only.
 
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PermitToTravel

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As someone who worked in retail when Chip and PIN was introduced, I learned a few things. When a card could phone home, it would. Our machine always attempted to contact the bank for authorisation.

This is only the case for your machines, not in general. It depends on the merchant's agreement with their acquirer.

For example, two of the cards I presently have will authorise offline at Tesco (the machine will tell me to remove the card as soon as I press enter after entering my PIN, with no delay), and one will not - in the same machine, for transactions of the same value. However, all of my cards will wait for online authorisation at Sainsbury's.
 

87 027

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Contactless has risks to the retailer. Recently my wife used contactless on her credit card at a coffee shop, without realising she had reached her credit limit. The transaction worked fine at the point of sale but the bank subsequently raised a dispute with the retailer and cancelled the transaction (refunding the purchase to her account and charging an 'over credit limit' fee)
 
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WelshBluebird

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How would you like the bank to "be honest" with customers under these circumstances? Replace the Visa logo on their card with an epaper display which indicates when their card behaves as a Visa and when it's behaving as Electron?

Or maybe just let the customer know?
In the age of internet banking (with mobile phone apps too) there is zero reason at all why a bank could not send a message to the customer to say what restrictions have been placed on / removed from their card.
 

fusionblue

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I dont know how this would work, but lets say i had to pay for a journey on a credit card on-train and I had three credit cards all handled by three separate systems (Halifax, Barclays and Metro Bank) but all three was declined.

Ignoring the likelyhood of all three banks having issues at the same time, what would happen then? Would i be given the ability to pay at destination (or via another method where card would be accepted) or does it become my fault because i am unable to pay? What if i am given a penalty fare or made to pay an unreasonable rate?

Although, strictly speaking, this example is more of an issue of "unable to accept payment" as opposed to "unable to pay" (which really is the retailers/merchants responsibility, and ultimately their responsibility to acknowledge this without placing me at a disadvantage).
 
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WillPS

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You have never given proof for this reason for the change.
I can't find a source right now, but it is certainly the case that 'authorise all' can be applied and removed ad-hoc - and every bank carrying the Current Account Switch Guarantee will do this ahead of transferring away a customer.


As someone who worked in retail when Chip and PIN was introduced, I learned a few things. When a card could phone home, it would. Our machine always attempted to contact the bank for authorisation. The change to not allow an offline authorisation could be done then (and was on occasion) precisely for the reason you gave (unusual activity. Online attempts would decline as well once this flag was set). It was then reset on the first online use after the customer had verified with their bank that the transactions were genuine.

I also worked in retail in Feb 2006. We had an integrated setup, but as in your case it would always attempt online authorisation - if it couldn't connect straight away it would stop trying unless the card was foreign or Electron/Solo. Most stores still do that - only some of the bigger supermarkets (Aldi, Lidl, Asda and Tesco + railway equipment) will authorise offline (goes through as soon as I put my PIN in). As the time which online authorisations decreases I would expect banks support such methods decreasingly; and merchants probably equally see it as not worth the risk.

Obviously on a Delta, Maestro or a credit card it would indeed allow a transaction up to a certain amount (I seem to recall £100 on Delta, Visa Credit and MasterCard and £50 on Maestro) should our machine not be able to contact Streamline (who we used). However had the flag disallowing offline transactions been set, the card would decline.
The amount which can be authorised offline (before an online transaction must be made) is set on the chip. This is why the member 'sarahj' earlier mentioned that putting a card in an ATM and getting a balance will reset the level.

As for disallowing offline transactions completely in the future. Not going to happen. Offline transactions exist as a backup to those who are deemed eligible by their banks.
You're free to your opinion, but it is clearly in that direction the banks are steering things; you mention yourself how retailers nearly always do everything online where possible...

I suspect the reason the Electron branding almost disappeared (it's beginning to make a comeback but only on basic bank accounts for example http://www.halifax.co.uk/bankaccounts/current-accounts/other-bank-accounts/basic-bank-account/) was more an effort to remove some of the prejudices that some retailers had. Some of my colleagues would not accept an Electron card, despite the fact that our processing system would authorise them as normal.
Acceptance was certainly an issue, as I alluded to previously Electron card users previously couldn't use their cards in most TVMs or Booking Offices (regardless of whether the infrastructure was there - and it should have been by 2009!) - and Visa have forced that ridiculous situation by simply rebranding them. It also allowed banks to create 'Control' type accounts without the stigma of an Electron card. There are many advantages to merging the schemes.

By the way, Halifax (and Lloyds Banking Group as a whole) do not issue Electron cards. If you applied for that account, you'd receive a Visa Debit card; raised digits and all. Halifax terminated all their Electron cards in 2012.

The IIN (Issuer Identity Number) previously known as the BIN generally identifies the issuing bank and card network (Visa or MasterCard). All Visa cards start with 4 and generally the first 4-6 numbers are unique to a bank. There are exceptions.

Cards with the IIN 4508, 4917 or 4844 (there are others I can't remember) are all permanently online only. They cannot be changed to offline authorisation as Visa have set these in stone. They are the original Electron IINs and are used by multiple banks worldwide.

Customers with cards with those IINs should be told by their bank that their card is online only.
Well I have a card starting in 4508 which works fine offline - but OK, ignoring that, I still reject that a customer should have to understand the card authorisation system to know when they can and can't use their card. The whole point of the Visa acceptance mark is that it works as exactly that - the railways should either accept Visa or not.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Or maybe just let the customer know?
In the age of internet banking (with mobile phone apps too) there is zero reason at all why a bank could not send a message to the customer to say what restrictions have been placed on / removed from their card.

How? Text message? What would it say? "Your card is no longer a Visa card but you should be able to use it in most places a Visa card is accepted; with the exception of on-board trains and aeroplanes"

It should be no concern of the customers' - that's the whole point!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I dont know how this would work, but lets say i had to pay for a journey on a credit card on-train and I had three credit cards all handled by three separate systems (Halifax, Barclays and Metro Bank) but all three was declined.

Ignoring the likelyhood of all three banks having issues at the same time, what would happen then? Would i be given the ability to pay at destination (or via another method where card would be accepted) or does it become my fault because i am unable to pay? What if i am given a penalty fare or made to pay an unreasonable rate?

Although, strictly speaking, this example is more of an issue of "unable to accept payment" as opposed to "unable to pay" (which really is the retailers/merchants responsibility, and ultimately their responsibility to acknowledge this without placing me at a disadvantage).
This is precisely my problem. I reject the rationale that the railways simply can't do anything about this; but accepting that - they don't even seem to have an official policy for what should happen.

To those who want to pay, there is some inconvenience.

For those who don't want to pay, there's a massive loophole which has remained in place for years.
 
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cjmillsnun

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By the way, Halifax (and Lloyds Banking Group as a whole) do not issue Electron cards. If you applied for that account, you'd receive a Visa Debit card; raised digits and all. Halifax terminated all their Electron cards in 2012.

Halifax's 2015 terms and conditions beg to differ
http://static.halifax.co.uk/assets/pdf/bankaccounts/pdf/easycash-guide.pdf

Halifax here has done what I want the banks to do. Be honest. If they can do it, why can't the others.

Using your analogy say I was at an air show and a vendor advertised that they accepted Visa. I proceed to attempt to pay using my online only card and it declines because there is a bad mobile signal and their machine cannot connect to the bank. Does the trader then say to everyone it's cash only. No of course they don't. They still can take payments with offline cards.

This is the same issue that the railways have. Their portable machines currently can't phone the bank. Avantix Mobile uses out of date technology now and is being replaced shortly. Let's see what they come up with before criticizing the railways out of hand.
 

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WillPS

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Halifax's 2015 terms and conditions beg to differ
http://static.halifax.co.uk/assets/pdf/bankaccounts/pdf/easycash-guide.pdf

Halifax here has done what I want the banks to do. Be honest. If they can do it, why can't the others.

Using your analogy say I was at an air show and a vendor advertised that they accepted Visa. I proceed to attempt to pay using my online only card and it declines because there is a bad mobile signal and their machine cannot connect to the bank. Does the trader then say to everyone it's cash only. No of course they don't. They still can take payments with offline cards.

This is the same issue that the railways have. Their portable machines currently can't phone the bank. Avantix Mobile uses out of date technology now and is being replaced shortly. Let's see what they come up with before criticizing the railways out of hand.
I promise you, that account does not come with a Visa Electron card and hasn't since at least 2012. The terms were never updated. Apply and have a go if you like; Lloyds Banking Group do not do Electron, nor do Santander, Barclays, Co-op, Nationwide or any major UK Bank/Building Society.

I would expect a vendor at an air show would be forced to going online for every transaction given the type of merchant...!

I've been critical of the railways lack of policy and innovation in this area for years. This isn't an out of hand criticism - even forgiving their lack of even an attempt to do remote online authorisation, they haven't even formally acknowledged the problem. Your mileage will vary wildly depending who you meet on the train.
 
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WelshBluebird

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How? Text message? What would it say? "Your card is no longer a Visa card but you should be able to use it in most places a Visa card is accepted; with the exception of on-board trains and aeroplanes"

It should be no concern of the customers' - that's the whole point!

My bank sends me text messages to keep me up to date with the payments I need to make for my credit card, so I don't see why text messages for such changes to your bank card is such a strange thing to contemplate. Or there is email, or sending a message through the internet banking system (which as I said can also be accessed for many banks through a smartphone app).

Why not something like that? With more detailed information in an email / intenet banking message.

And of course it is a concern of the customers if it restricts where and how they can use the card!

Of course, I am not saying the railway shouldn't do more to be able to accept such cards. They should. But if a bank is changing the T&C's of your card then the least they can do is let you know about it! (and in terms of T&C changes to your account, you do get a leaflet normally, so why can't they notify you about changes to your card aswell).
 
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WillPS

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The bank aren't changing the terms and conditions. The point is that you have a Visa card which the banks expect you to be able to use anywhere you see the Visa logo. (At the risk of going in circles here)
 

Llanigraham

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Using your analogy say I was at an air show and a vendor advertised that they accepted Visa. I proceed to attempt to pay using my online only card and it declines because there is a bad mobile signal and their machine cannot connect to the bank. Does the trader then say to everyone it's cash only. No of course they don't. They still can take payments with offline cards.

This is the same issue that the railways have. Their portable machines currently can't phone the bank. Avantix Mobile uses out of date technology now and is being replaced shortly. Let's see what they come up with before criticizing the railways out of hand.

I have had that situation at the NEC where my on-line only card could not process because there was a mobile problem and the seller cancelled my sale and would only accept cash. I didn't have enough and he lost a sale. And whilst I was waiting to see if they could solve the problem I saw several other have the same problem and walk away with their goods.

EDIT:
The card is from YBS.
 
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DeeGee

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I have had that situation at the NEC where my on-line only card could not process because there was a mobile problem and the seller cancelled my sale and would only accept cash. I didn't have enough and he lost a sale. And whilst I was waiting to see if they could solve the problem I saw several other have the same problem and walk away with their goods.

Of course, the difference, in a customer service sense, is that the vendor 'loses' a sale, although he could probably sell the same goods later on - so no real loss.

On the railways it's quite possible that if you fail some kind of "attitiude test", or if you're travelling quite innocently on a line with a lot of people with this sort of card (and who "try it on" all the time) that you're asked to pay more than twice the fare or reported for prosecution because you have one of these cards.
 

island

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I promise you, that account does not come with a Visa Electron card and hasn't since at least 2012. The terms were never updated. Apply and have a go if you like; Lloyds Banking Group do not do Electron, nor do Santander, Barclays, Co-op, Nationwide or any major UK Bank/Building Society.

You are wrong. Simple as. I have the account, and the card. It was last reissued last year. It has Visa Electron brand mark, and flat numbers.
 

WillPS

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You are wrong. Simple as. I have the account, and the card. It was last reissued last year. It has Visa Electron brand mark, and flat numbers.

Well I'll be damned! *graciously eats hat*

God knows why Halifax have done that, but I don't think it's a case of honesty on their part since their "control" and all the other restricted accounts they do are still Debit. My girlfriend's easycash account card was also reissued recently just as a standard Debit card.
 
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