December 2012 timetable changes

[Robsignals]

The 4 tracking ends just south of Three Bridges so the 24 hour service only runs that far. However, there are overnight coaches from Brighton to Gatwick and Heathrow,..]

To be precise 4 track ends at Balcombe [Tunnel] Jct, from there to Preston Park both lines (Slow Lines Copyhold Jct - Haywards Heath) are Bi-Directional, one justification being the then 2 hourly night service. Brighton trains dep Vic at 0100 & 0400 and surprisingly call at HH as the stop was deleted to save buses/taxis during diversions by the Mid-Sussex Line.
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0105 Bournemouth - may have something to do with staff travel needs?

Think it ran for many years as a Staff Train before being made a service train.
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If anything I'd prefer the Brighton lines altered to paired by direction for the benefits it offers turnbacks and overtaking. Not really viable though due to the situation with the quarry lines though.

Good for overtaking and maximising line capacity. Not good for turnbacks and junctions which both require flyovers (at Welwyn GC the flyover was built in the 80's for turning-back the Inner Suburban service) also on the approach to the London terminal. While building all these flyovers might as well have 2 more at each end of the Quarry Line.

No existing flying jct is built to optimum design with the diverging track rising from between the Fast and Slow Lines, would require the line on the diverging side to also go up on viaduct.

On the SWML Woking's flat junction, once claimed to be the busiest 4 track one in Europe, is a major problem as is the one at Basingstoke. Why weren't flyovers built at these key locations.

 

[swt_passenger]

On the SWML Woking's flat junction, once claimed to be the busiest 4 track one in Europe, is a major problem as is the one at Basingstoke. Why weren't flyovers built at these key locations.

Land was safeguarded and funding was allocated for Woking, but it is usually said that the work stopped in the build up to WW2. Afterwards the money had probably disappeared...

Basingstoke itself possibly wasn't such a busy junction, and the logical end of the four tracking anyway, with grade separation beyond at Worting. Pre-war what is now the West of England line was the main route, hence the design. Grade separation of the Reading junction would be useful now, but possibly wasn't when the main phase of the works was going on - I have no idea what the relevant service patterns might have been in those days.

However I don't think even now that Basingstoke is a critical timing issue for the whole SWT timetable in the way that Woking is. They often mention overall line capacity between Basingstoke and Southampton, but that's a slightly different problem.

 

[radamfi]

To be precise 4 track ends at Balcombe [Tunnel] Jct, from there to Preston Park both lines (Slow Lines Copyhold Jct - Haywards Heath) are Bi-Directional, one justification being the then 2 hourly night service. Brighton trains dep Vic at 0100 & 0400 and surprisingly call at HH as the stop was deleted to save buses/taxis during diversions by the Mid-Sussex Line.

The lack of Haywards Heath calls overnight is the reason I chose Three Bridges over HH as a place to live. With this new information (well new to me) that the line south of Three Bridges is bi-directional, the lack of HH overnight service is reprehensible, given its spectacular service the rest of the time.

There is only a 3 hour gap going to Brighton, but from Brighton the gap is much worse, but luckily the overnight coach fills the gap. No such facility for Haywards Heath, though.

 

[ushawk]

The lack of Haywards Heath calls overnight is the reason I chose Three Bridges over HH as a place to live. With this new information (well new to me) that the line south of Three Bridges is bi-directional, the lack of HH overnight service is reprehensible, given its spectacular service the rest of the time.

There is only a 3 hour gap going to Brighton, but from Brighton the gap is much worse, but luckily the overnight coach fills the gap. No such facility for Haywards Heath, though.

HHE does get overnight services as the Brighton services do stop there. The ones that terminate at Three Bridges are solely there to serve Gatwick. Also the line south of Balcombe Jct gets closed frequently overnight so buses would need to be provided - much easier just to terminate at Three Bridges.

 

[radamfi]

HHE does get overnight services as the Brighton services do stop there. The ones that terminate at Three Bridges are solely there to serve Gatwick. Also the line south of Balcombe Jct gets closed frequently overnight so buses would need to be provided - much easier just to terminate at Three Bridges.

There is no train north from Haywards Heath between 2359 and 0430. I don't really call 0430 overnight.

 

[tbtc]

the lack of HH overnight service is reprehensible

Given that many cities have no overnight service, is "reprehensible" really the right word here?

 

[jamieintercity]

I don't suppose anyone knows if the scotrail timetable ends in May or is it still December. I thought it only ends in May next year due to the olympics this year as the new timetables saying its end in december next year?

 

[radamfi]

Given that many cities have no overnight service, is "reprehensible" really the right word here?

I am comparing the overnight service to central London with other places around the south east, such as Three Bridges, Milton Keynes, Reading and Bedford.

Also, I am taking into account the very frequent service from Haywards Heath that exists at other times. Otherwise less well served areas get an overnight service.

Lots of places have an overnight coach services to Heathrow/London including far flung places such as Poole and Cardiff.

 

[ushawk]

There is no train north from Haywards Heath between 2359 and 0430. I don't really call 0430 overnight.

Is there really a demand ? Ive already said in this topic that if Gatwick didnt exist, the mainline would have no overnight service as there would be no need. Gatwick is the sole reason the service exists which is why it doesnt extend south. Plenty of places bigger than Haywards Heath dont get an overnight service either.
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I am comparing the overnight service to central London with other places around the south east, such as Three Bridges, Milton Keynes, Reading and Bedford.

Also, I am taking into account the very frequent service from Haywards Heath that exists at other times. Otherwise less well served areas get an overnight service.

Lots of places have an overnight coach services to Heathrow/London including far flung places such as Poole and Cardiff.

Three Bridges (Gatwick) - Serves a big hub and an airport
Milton Keynes - Serves a big hub and also Watford.
Reading - Serves a big hub
Bedford - Mainly to serve Luton Airport

Just because a station has a frequent service during the day, it doesnt mean it will be incredibly busy at night too. Lots of stations on the ECML are very busy during the day but they dont get an overnight service, much like Birmingham which hasnt got one either !!

The overnight coaches are to serve airports as well, the service to Poole serves Bournemouth and various others serve Heathrow.

 

[Deerfold]

Is there really a demand ? Ive already said in this topic that if Gatwick didnt exist, the mainline would have no overnight service as there would be no need. Gatwick is the sole reason the service exists which is why it doesnt extend south. Plenty of places bigger than Haywards Heath dont get an overnight service either.

Why does Reading to London get an overnight service - in that direction the longest gap is 1h29, in the other 2h? There doesn't appear to be anywhere huge served. Nor an airport. I'm not entirely suer what the "big" hub being served is but when I've caught the services there seems to be a lot of demand to fairly small towns of Slough and Reading. It seems if you give a decent late service to people, let them know about it and give it time to develop and people use it.

The overnight coaches are to serve airports as well, the service to Poole serves Bournemouth and various others serve Heathrow.

Many overnight coaches don't serve airports though - the 465 West & South Yorkshire & Nottinghamshire to London service doesn't. Admittedly it's a combination of day services 450, 560, 561 and 564 but it's well used - I've managed to not be able to book on because it's full before now; and pre-Christmas I've seen a duplicate coach used. It generally doesn't see the same cheap fares available on the day services. I've used it many times and never to an airport - and not always to or from London.

The number of people needed to make an overnight coach service viable is probably far lower than for an overnight train service - if there's overnight roadworks on the route it's generally easier to divert a coach.

 

[radamfi]

Overnight coaches are usually very busy and cheap fares are rarely offered.

Birmingham is particularly well served by overnight coaches and coaches meet there in the middle of the night so you can change between them.

 

[Deerfold]

Overnight coaches are usually very busy and cheap fares are rarely offered.

I use coaches overnight far more often than I do during the day.

Usually because there isn't a train when I want one.

My most common journey by train is London - Steeton and Silsden or Keighley. I have to leave London Kings Cross by 2030 to make the last connection or home by 1945 to make the last southbound train. I can leave home at 2200 to get an overnight coach south. I can leave London at 2330 by coach to Leeds or 2200 from St Pancras to connect with the megabusplus all the way to Keighley. If I get the 2330 train from London to Leeds I've either a 3 hour wait for a train or a very expensive taxi.

 

[dvboy]

Overnight coaches are usually very busy and cheap fares are rarely offered.

Birmingham is particularly well served by overnight coaches and coaches meet there in the middle of the night so you can change between them.

The problem is overnight coaches don't cater for suburban travel between towns and cities close enough for commuting or social distance.

In the West Midlands there is no night bus network either, so travelling between midnight at 5am (or 8am Sunday) can be really problematic.

 

[radamfi]

The problem is overnight coaches don't cater for suburban travel between towns and cities close enough for commuting or social distance.

That was really the point I was making. Bizarrely, it is easier to get to London or Heathrow early in the morning from far away places than from some places in the London commuter area. I think there is definitely a case for rail replacement coaches to substitute for main lines in the south east overnight.

There are overnight RER replacement services throughout the Île-de-France region around Paris:

http://www.ratp.fr/informer/pdf/orienter/f_plan.php?fm=pdf&loc=reseaux&nompdf=noctilien

 

[tbtc]

That was really the point I was making. Bizarrely, it is easier to get to London or Heathrow early in the morning from far away places than from some places in the London commuter area

...but then it's easier to get to some other airports during the daytime from places further away than from the local area (like Manchester Airport having direct services to Newcastle, Glasgow etc but not from places in Cheshire/ Derbyshire that area fairly close).

 

[bicbasher]

...but then it's easier to get to some other airports during the daytime from places further away than from the local area (like Manchester Airport having direct services to Newcastle, Glasgow etc but not from places in Cheshire/ Derbyshire that area fairly close).

It's easier to reach Gatwick from Forest Hill than to get to Heathrow despite being in London.

 

[Robsignals]

[...However I don't think even now that Basingstoke is a critical timing issue for the whole SWT timetable in the way that Woking is. They often mention overall line capacity between Basingstoke and Southampton, but that's a slightly different problem.

If 'branch' moves are made in parallel flat junctions aren't too much of a problem except during disruption. I'm sure I read that the total recast of the SWML timetable a few years ago was built around Woking Jct.
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[...the very frequent service from Haywards Heath that exists at other times...]

Off-peak not that frequent:
Southern half-hourly to Vic;
FCC quarter-hourly to Bedford.

 

[SprinterMan]

The FO Stockport to Stalybridge parly will run later from the timetable change (1013 vice 0922).

Old - http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/G13587/2012/12/7

New - http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/Y33012/2012/12/14

Adam

 

[Southern]

Off-peak not that frequent:
Southern half-hourly to Vic;
FCC quarter-hourly to Bedford.

I'd call that pretty frequent tbh, it's six tph...even on a Sunday there are 5; 3tph to/from Victoria and 2tph to/from Bedford.

 

[M60lad]

Does anybody know whether Northern plan to change which services are going to be strengthened from this weekends timetable change or am I right in thinking the same services that are strengthened now will be the same in the new timetable.

Also will any Saturday services be strengthened out of interest, just seems odd that services that are strengthened during the week aren't strengthened on Saturdays but surprisingly sets can be found on Sundays to strengthen other services

 

[michael769]

With reduced services on sunday most operators have loads of spare rolling stock if he need to strenghten services.

The rest of the week they are pretty much using all their stock so strengthening means either cutting back on another service or maintenance.

So it shoud not really surprise that some find it easier to strenghten services on a Sunday than on other days.

 

[PR1Berske]

Did you get "strengthen" in your word of the day calendar?

 

[jon0844]

Don't worry, the word tomorrow is 'short-formed'

 

[Oswyntail]

There are "minor" changes to the Ilkley line timetable, which I would not have noticed had there not been a local sign on a noticeboard yesterday. In particular, the first train of the day, currently at 06:04, is rescheduled to 06:02. I presume this is to give a 10 minute connection time to the 06:40 to London at Leeds. As someone whose chief duty on Wednesday mornings is ferrying a very sleepy Mrs O to catch this train, I can say that those two minutes are truly significant at the Ilkley end, but not at Leeds, where anyone who needs the full ten minutes to get from platform 2 to platform 8 has probably fallen asleep on the train.

 

[greatkingrat]

It may not actually take 10 minutes to change trains in practice, but for anyone trying to book an advance ticket on that train it is a very significant change.

 

[Oswyntail]

It may not actually take 10 minutes to change trains in practice, but for anyone trying to book an advance ticket on that train it is a very significant change.

I understand that fully. But that means this is an example of administrative "correctness" getting in the way of customer service

 

[tbtc]

I understand that fully. But that means this is an example of administrative "correctness" getting in the way of customer service

Is my memory playing tricks or did you comment at a previous timetable change that an amended Leeds - London service meant that the early Ilkley train no longer gave an official connection at Leeds?

 

[SprinterMan]

New Chiltern Loco-hauled times:

Monday - Friday
1H17 07:44 PRR - MYB
1H19 06:09 KID - MYB
1H22 06:38 SBJ - MYB
1H21 07:44 BAN - MYB
1H44 10:55 BMO - MYB
1H53 12:55 BMO - MYB
1H65 15:55 BMO - MYB

1R16 08:45 MYB - BMO
1R22 10:15 MYB - BMO
1R34 13:15 MYB - BMO
1R48 16:47 MYB - BMO
1K50 17:15 MYB - KID
1K54 18:15 MYB - KID
1U56 18:50 MYB - BAN

Saturdays
1H06 07:12 KID - MYB
1H13 09:10 KID - MYB
1H24 13:55 BMO - MYB

1R25 11:06 MYB - BMO
1G49 17:06 MYB - BMO
1G53 18:06 MYB - BMO

Sundays
1H31 10:13 BMO - MYB
1R54 18:33 MYB - BMO

With thanks to CherryPicker
Adam

 

[MidnightFlyer]

For anyone wanting a translation of the above:
BAN - Banbury
BMO - Birmingham Moor St
KID - Kidderminster
MYB - London Marylebone
PRR - Princes Risborough
SBJ - Stourbridge Jn