December 2015 Timetable Change

Discussion in 'Allocations, Diagrams & Timetables' started by SprinterMan, 14 Aug 2015.

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  1. SprinterMan

    SprinterMan Established Member

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  3. DaveHarries

    DaveHarries Established Member

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    Following the above post I was just looking through the SWT trains for Yeovil Pen Mill and found the following:

    1L35 1250 WAT - YVP 1535 (c/a WSB, FRM, BRU & CLC) (N: 1L58)
    1L58 1545 YVP - WAT 1821 (c/a YVJ, then direct to SBY calling all stations)
    1L39 1350 WAT - YVP 1623 (c/a SBY, then all stations to YVJ, then via. spur to YVP) (N: 2V14)
    2V14 1630 YVP - YVJ 1636 (N: 1O64 at YVJ)
    1O64 1648 YVJ - SBY 1817 (c/a YVP, CLC, BRU, FRM, WSB & WMN) (J: 1L64 1624 EXD - WAT at SBY)
    1L47 1550 WAT - YVP 1827 (c/a SBY, then all stations to YVJ, then via. spur to YVP) (N: 2V18)
    2V18 1833 YVP - YVJ 1838 (N: 5V18 ECS 1845 YVJ - SBY direct)
    1L51 1650 WAT - WSB 2005 (c/a SBY, then all stations to YVJ, then YVP, CLC, BRU, FRM) (N: 1O52)
    1L55 1750 WAT - WSB 2119 (c/a SBY, then all stations to YVJ, then YVP, CLC, BRU, FRM) (N: 1O56)
    1L59 1850 WAT - YVP 2123 (c/a SBY, then all stations to YVJ, then via. spur to YVP) (N: 2V30)
    2V30 2130 YVP - YVJ 2135 (N: 5V30 ECS 2147 YVJ - SBY direct)

    This will, in turn, lead to 2 extra services Westbury to Salisbury:
    1O52 2011 WSB - SBY
    1O56 2124 WSB - SBY

    Station codes (for anyone not already aware): BRU: Bruton | CLC; Castle Cary | FRM: Frome | SBY: Salisbury | WAT: London Waterloo WSB: Westbury | WMN: Warminster | YVP: Yeovil PM | YVJ: Yeovil Jcn

    Other abbreviations: c/a: Calling at | N: Next working | J: Joins | ECS: Empty train

    Except for railtours or diverted trains, I can't remember when anything last worked direct between Yeovil Junction and Yeovil Pen Mill. Interesting.

    HTIOI,
    Dave
     
    Last edited: 14 Aug 2015
  4. hassaanhc

    hassaanhc Established Member

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    This reminded me to check the status of the additional Sunday afternoon services on the Hounslow loop, improving the current 1tph into 2tph. But I was not expecting the following service pattern :o.

    The current Sunday afternoon Waterloo to Kingston (bay platform) via Richmond services are to be diverted via Brentford and Hounslow! :o Starting between 1100-1200 and finishing 2000-2100, same as now.
    They will call at all stations from Waterloo to Twickenham via Hounslow, then reverse to go to Kingston, calling all stations. http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/W16272/2015-12-13
    Same thing in the opposite direction, all stations from Kingston to Twickenham, reverse to then go to Waterloo via Hounslow, calling at all stations. http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/W16267/2015-12-13

    The current Waterloo to Woking service remains unchanged. I was hoping they'd increase timings slightly, as Sunday trains are booked to be 2 minutes faster between Waterloo and Hounslow (36 minutes instead of 38 on Mon-Sat) due to less junction conflicts at Barnes, but in reality are almost always 2-3 late at Hounslow (indeed the RecentTrainTimes website suggests right-time punctuality is poor).

    Wonder if they'll still be using mostly single 455s on non-rugby days?
     
  5. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    This was announced by SWT quite a while back, we had a few days of discussion about it when the track access application was newly published, around February some time...

    In helpfully analysing all the different workings, which must have taken a while, I hope you haven't you've re-invented the wheel... :D

    I thought there should be a couple of early morning departures from Pen Mill as well though, they are in the TAA, should be an 0642 from YVJ via Frome? Of course they might not all be loaded up yet.
     
    Last edited: 14 Aug 2015
  6. DaveHarries

    DaveHarries Established Member

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    Someone on the SimSig forum has copied this list from the proposal document which suggests there should indeed be more trains on OTT than there currently are.

    From the Proposal document

    On the West of England:

    Mondays to Fridays:
    06:28 YPM - YVJ
    06:42 YVJ - WAT, via YPM, CLC, BRU, FRM & WSB
    10:20 WAT - EXD & YVJ (the rear unit of the existing Exeter train splits at SAL and continues via WSB, FRM & YVP to YVJ: forms 14:51 EXD Service)
    12:50 WAT - YVP via WSB, FRM, BRU & CLC (this will be an extension of a SAL service: forms the 15:50 to WAT)
    13:50 WAT - YVP via GIL & YVJ (Extension of the 13:50 WAT - GIL, forms the 16:30 to YVJ)
    14:51 YVJ - EXD (makes the Honiton Shuttle)
    15:50 YVP to WAT via YVJ & GIL (extension of the 16:18 GIL - WAT)
    15:50 WAT - YVP via GIL & YVJ (extension of the 15:50 WAT - GIL, makes the 18:26 to YVJ)
    16:30 YVP - YVJ (forms the 16:55 YVJ - WAT)
    16:35 EXD - HON (forms 17:07 to EXD)
    16:50 WAT - YYVP via GIL & YVJ (this extends the existing 16:50 WAT - YVJ, and then returns ECS to SAL via YVJ & GIL)
    16:55 YVJ - WAT via YVP, CLC, BRU, FRM & WSB (poss. extends 17:47 SAL - WAT or it would have to join an Exeter Train)
    17:07 HON - EXD (presume this will join an existing Exeter to Waterloo
    17:50 WAT - YVP via GIL & YVJ (extension of 17:50 WAT - YVJ, forms 20:30 to YVJ)
    18:26 YVP - YVJ (makes an ECS to Salisbury at 18:45 via GIL)
    18:50 WAT - YVP via GIL & YVJ (extension of the 18:50 WAT - SAL, forms 21:30 ECS to SAL via YVJ & GIL)
    20:30 YVP - YVJ (forms an ECS to Salisbury via Gillingham at 2147)

    All of the above are a single class 159.

    Saturdays
    07:50 WAT - WEY via SAL, YVJ, YVP & MDN (Extension of 07:50 Waterloo to Salisbury)
    08:56 WAT - WRM (formed off an up Salisbury, forms 12:15 Bournemouth)
    11:50 WAT - WEY via SAL, YVJ, YVP & MDN (Extension of 11:50 Waterloo to Salisbury)
    12:15 WRM - BMH (forms 14:55 WHM)
    12:55 WEY - WAT via MDN, YVP, YVJ & SAL (not as yet sure which Salisbury service this will extend).
    14:55 BMH - WRM (forms 16:26 WAT)
    16:26 WRM - WAT (unsure what this forms afterwards, presumably tacked onto an existing WoE service).
    16:55 WEY - WAT via MDN, YVP, YVJ & SAL (not as yet sure which Salisbury service this will extend).

    All of the above are a single Class 159.

    Sundays
    16:25 GIL - WAT (new service, formed off ECS from Salisbury TMD, forms 18:45 Salisbury)
    17:25 GIL - WAT (new service, formed off ECS from Salisbury TMD, forms 19:45 Salisbury)
    18:45 WAT - SAL (new service)
    19:45 WAT - SAL (new service)

    Station codes (for anyone not aware):
    BMH: Bournemouth | BRU: Bruton | CLC: Castle Cary | EXD: Exeter St. Davids | FRM: Frome | GIL: Gillingham (Dorset)
    MDN: Maiden Newton | SAL: Salisbury WAT: London Waterloo | WEY: Weymouth | WRM: Wareham | WSB: Westbury
    YVP: Yeovil PM | YVJ: Yeovil Jcn

    Presuming this all comes off it will be good to see the Yeovil Junction - Yeovil Pen Mill spur returned to regular passenger use.

    Dave
     
    Last edited: 15 Aug 2015
  7. berneyarms

    berneyarms Established Member

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    From recent experience trains tend to be added to the timetable database right up until within the last month before they are due to take effect.

    I wouldn't read anything into those trains not appearing on OTT currently.
     
  8. Aictos

    Aictos Established Member

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    Well good to see Peterborough now has a direct service from Sunderland, however as usual loses out on the faster Scottish services again.
     
  9. Class 170101

    Class 170101 Established Member

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    A very long day though if you only use East Coast between Sunderland and London and return.
     
  10. Aictos

    Aictos Established Member

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    Indeed, call me cynical but would they have offered the service if Grand Central hadn't showed there was a market for it?
     
  11. Class 170101

    Class 170101 Established Member

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    No. Didn't event TPE have pull out of Sunderland as well?
     
  12. Ianigsy

    Ianigsy Member

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    I've always assumed that was based around the Metro extension to Sunderland taking the strain of most Newcastle-Sunderland travel. There used to be a slightly odd TPE working in the late 1990s which was an evening train out of Leeds, essentially a Middlesbrough terminator then becoming a Durham coast stopper as a way of getting the unit back to Heaton without incurring dead mileage.
     
  13. dk1

    dk1 Established Member

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    Sunderland & the coastal route to Via Hartlepool always seems depressed at the best of times. Hardly the most affluent area to chase after revenue. Never understand why VTEC are even bothered in the former.
     
  14. Stats

    Stats Member

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    The Sunderland service is not yet approved.

    I would question whether there is a market for it. The independent analysis for ORR - although admittedly being reworked because the consultants apparently used the 2019 timetable instead of the 2020 timetable - has come up with the following:

    6,000 passengers per annum
    That works out for 5 days a week over 51 weeks (allowing for services not running at Christmas and Easter) at
    118 passenger journeys per week.
    24 passenger journeys per day.
    12 passengers on each service.

    They estimate total revenue of £180k, of which £51k is newly generated and the rest abstracted giving a newly generated/abstraction figure of 0.4. That works, using the same methodolgy as above of £706 of revenue per day or £353 of revenue for each service.

    Whether VTECs own analysis of the market is entirely different is a question we will not get an answer for.
     
    Last edited: 16 Aug 2015
  15. jamieintercity

    jamieintercity Member

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    Is there any timetable changes to scotrail, particularly from the central belt to the inverness/Aberdeen areas?
     
  16. Doctor Fegg

    Doctor Fegg Member

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  17. 47271

    47271 Established Member

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    I had a quick look at the Highland Main Line changes the other evening and it just looks like 2-3 min tweaks here and there. I don't know about Aberdeen.

    On Sunderland, it looks like they're trying run a direct return to King's Cross to compete with GC with an earlier start in the morning and a later final departure in the evening.

    I use GC a fair bit King's Cross-Sunderland but very rarely early in the morning and, as others have alluded to, loadings are light in the final leg and especially beyond Northallerton. Paradoxically, GC's main flow on Sunderland trains seems to be providing a competitively priced non stop service between York and King's Cross - versus VTEC!

    If they priced it sensibly (and it isn't that expensive at the moment as a Newcastle service) I might use the 2000 VTEC from King's Cross in preference to the current 1918 GC departure, so that I don't have to charge along with a noisy engine under the floor all evening, but that's the only selling point of this idea for me I'm afraid.
     
  18. Gary-X

    Gary-X New Member

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    I don't really post often but I thought that this would be a good opportunity.

    According to OTT, there is going to be an overhaul on the Ayr to Stranraer services.

    + Hourly service between Ayr and Girvan throughout the day.
    + Two-hourly service between Kilmarnock and Stranraer throughout the day.
    + Improved Sunday service between Ayr and Stranraer. Four services southbound and five services northbound, compared with the current frequency of three services each way.

    - No service from Kilmarnock to Ayr between 1458 and 1803.
    - Services to Glasgow Central via Kilwinning have all been withdrawn, this includes the Sunday service, which has been replaced by an Ayr to Stranraer shuttle.

    Overall, I think the changes are quite good but there are still some areas which may cause problems amongst passengers.

    I'm not too sure if this has been mentioned before, nor am I sure if the timetable is at a final stage.
     
  19. Rich McLean

    Rich McLean Established Member

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  20. berneyarms

    berneyarms Established Member

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    This proposal also was in the ITT and is good news.

    The timetables are not finalised at this stage.

    There will have to be another southbound train on Sundays to match the sets up.

    But the question I have is why oh why can the schedulers not manage a clockface timetable on this route - it should be perfectly possible - instead we get a hotch-potch.
     
  21. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    Just had a quick look for the SWT changes that will remove the Poole/Portsmouth portion working from Sunday late afternoon onwards.

    Leaving Waterloo, what they have done is leave the Weymouth train at xx35, but the last 'splitter' leaves for Poole and Portsmouth at 1454.

    The following hour, there's a Portsmouth via Eastleigh departure slightly earlier at 1550, and a Poole departure slightly later at 1605 - which now makes the Weymouth and Poole services half an hour apart.

    The calling patterns of the new Portsmouth and Poole trains are slightly different to weekdays as far as the common station of Eastleigh:

    Portsmouth train e.g. 1T47 calls at Clapham Jn (U), Woking, Farnborough, Basingstoke, Micheldever, Winchester, Shawford, Eastleigh etc.
    Poole train e.g. 1B47 calls at Clapham Jn (U), Woking, Basingstoke, Winchester, Eastleigh etc.

    So the latter is a faster train and by Eastleigh is only a few minutes behind, and surprisingly because the Portsmouth train retains its original times and long dwell at Eastleigh, the Poole train will effectively 'overtake' and there'll be a cross platform (P2/3) change available between the two services, and the Poole train departs on its original times west of Eastleigh.

    I can see why they've done it this way, but it is a bit different to Mon - Sat - so I'd expect a few Shawford or Micheldever passengers to get confused...

    Something similar happens in the up direction, with both trains again in Eastleigh together, but now on Platforms 1 and 2, and the Portsmouth train keeps the minor calls at Shawford, Micheldever and Farnborough.

    Edited to add a reminder that the proposed capacity increase on the route is achieved by running the 1705,1805,1905 and 2005 Poole services as 10.444 - it seems that the Portsmouth trains will remain single units.
     
    Last edited: 18 Aug 2015
  22. Gary-X

    Gary-X New Member

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    At the moment, one of the Sunday Stranraer services operates as a two car set from Glasgow to Ayr, before hooking up to another set brought in from Ayr C.S.D.
    Granted, this formation returns to Glasgow later on in the evening but perhaps a movement similar to this could explain the unbalanced southbound service. I could see the last southbound service operating as 2x156, before detaching with one unit heading back north. Although, as you say, the timetable isn't finalised and the service could be sorted out closer to the timetable change.

    The lack of a clockface timetable could possibly relate to the amount of trains on the stretch between Ayr and Barassie, as it is possible to operate from Ayr to Girvan and back within an hour, including a five minute turnaround at Girvan, with two units meeting at Ayr station.
     
  23. Mag_seven

    Mag_seven Established Member

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    Well if the "faster" services stopped at Peterborough they would cease to become "faster" services wouldn't they. ;)
     
    Last edited: 18 Aug 2015
  24. Stats

    Stats Member

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    The ORR have delayed making a decision on the ECML track applications of Alliance, FirstGroup and VTEC until the end of the year. That may appear off topic for this thread, and I do not suggest it is discussed here, but I mention it because the ORR have been considering the Stirling and Sunderland applications with all the others. If these two applications are still pending a decision at the start of the new timetable, presumably their introduction will need to be delayed?
     
  25. Class 170101

    Class 170101 Established Member

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    Not quite sure how paths in marginal time to locations off the mainline which Sunderland and Stirling are really affect on the ECML.
     
  26. 43074

    43074 Established Member

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    Major changes on the Brighton Main Line will be introduced, they are on OTT but a good overview of the changes can be found in the consultation document (attached):
     

    Attached Files:

  27. SprinterMan

    SprinterMan Established Member

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    Big changes happening in London. c2c no longer serve Liverpool Street M-F but have 2tph going there Sat & Sun. On a Sunday, ALL Shoeburyness trains during the day (not morning or evening) go into LST instead of Fenchurch Street. They now have 9xxx headcodes to show this. Also Moorgate is now open Sat & Sun which is nice.

    Adam :D
     
  28. Aictos

    Aictos Established Member

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    Inverness and Aberdeen for years saw direct links between them and Peterborough, (Peterborough a railhead for the East Anglia region) until East Coast managed by DOR at the time decided to pull these links for no reason when they introduced the ECML version of a VHF timetable other then to run said services non stop between London and York.

    The only other fault with this timetable is the waste of the Newark Northgate terminators which should have continued to York but that's for another topic and time.

    Yes they might well be re-introducing said services in 2018 but I fail to see why they cannot do that earlier instead of waiting for the IEP sets to enter service.
     
  29. Argosy

    Argosy Member

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    No it is not possible to operate from Ayr to Girvan and back within the hour.

    The running time is 27 minutes by direction and 10 minutes cumulatibve turnaround time making the cycle time 64 minutes.

    If there is a cross it is most efficient to do this just north of Dalrymple Junction since doing it at Kilkerran will cause one service to have an additional time penalty of 5 minutes.

    The reason there is not a clockface timetable is that is impossible without artificially slowing trains down. Every other train is likely to involve a service to Stranraer and this involves a further cross at Girvan. In addition services terminating at Girvan have a 2 min timing allowance added in, whilst through trains do not. When this is added in you get a skewed timetable that is one pattern on the even hour and different on the odd hour.

    The new timetable is a total farce of as now as it will be impossible to travel between Kilmarnock and Prestwick as this service is axed. Indeed the whole thing is a joke and causing a big ruck locally it seems.

    Timetable confusion for Carrick passengers

    New railway timetables for the south west published on a website show cutbacks to services, but transport officials are disputing their accuracy.

    Timetables on the website OpenTrainTimes.com show that come December, passengers in Carrick will be left with only one direct service to Prestwick Airport and Prestwick Town if the plans are introduced.

    Passengers will have to transfer at Ayr if they want to carry on their journeys to either of the Prestwick stations, with the only exception being the planned 21.03 service departing from Stranraer.

    With direct services already being lost to Paisley, direct access to Glasgow and Prestwick Airport could all be gone by the end of the year for rail passengers in the Carrick area.

    Other plans in the timetables show that there would be a three-hour gap between trains from Kilmarnock to Stranraer, serving Maybole, Girvan and Barrhill in the afternoons.

    The timetable shows that after a train heads south from Kilmarnock at 2.58pm, there is not another service until 6.03pm, potentially causing misery for
    students and workers.

    In a statement earlier this year as Abellio took over the Scotrail franchise, Transport Scotland said: “More trains will operate with improved connections at Kilmarnock for Ayr reflecting the increasing importance of the Ayr-Kilmarnock axis as a commuting corridor.”

    Disabled passengers at Girvan are also set to be disadvantaged with all the planned services heading southward to Barrhill or Stranraer arriving in at platform two at Girvan station, where there is no step-free access.

    That will also largely be the case at Ayr where seven of the nine services heading for Maybole and Girvan will be at platform four at Ayr Station, where there is also no step-free access.

    Whilst the timetables show that the services from Girvan to Ayr come December will be one an hour, in line with what was promised at the franchise agreement, there won’t be an hourly service linking Girvan, Ayr and Kilmarnock.

    At one stage in the afternoon, there is no direct service from Girvan to Kilmarnock between the 1.57pm and the 4.58pm trains leaving Girvan respectively which is a less frequent service than the current timetable.
    The Gazette understands that Transport Scotland’s position is that the timetables published on the website are not accurate.

    Transport Scotland say that the official draft timetables for December this year will not be released until 12 weeks before they are implemented, which they say should be some time in September.

    A Transport Scotland spokesperson said: “We were disappointed to see that infrastructure constraints mean the full planned enhancements can’t be delivered and we encourage Network Rail and ScotRail to work towards a solution that will offer rail passengers in the south west improved connectivity on the rail network.”


    To axe the Sunday direct Glasgows is sheer lunacy and shows that TS are totally out of touch with reality. These can be quite busy and indeed travel to or through Glasgow represents the biggest share of the market and these trains are taken off. Who on earth wants five services in the afternnoon Ayr - Stranraer. It is Glasgow people want to get and you can't do that before 1300.

    Furthermore as loaded just now it will be quicker on three trains in the afternoon to travel via Kilmarnock to get to Glasgow.
     
  30. Gary-X

    Gary-X New Member

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    I didn't necessarily mean the Ayr to Girvan service in question running as a shuttle. I just meant that it would be possible with two services crossing over at Ayr. Although with the projected service being a shuttle, you are right. It is also a reason why the service is interworked with Kilmarnock to Stranraer with the shuttle unit being spare for a hour at Ayr.

    To be honest, the service on the southern end is fine, probably as close to hourly as we are going to get. It's the northern end of this route which has problems.

    I agree that the mid-afternoon service between Girvan and Kilmarnock does stick out and I mentioned that in my original post. I've been trying to think of several solutions but there are several things conflicting this service at the Kilmarnock end (Glasgow to Newcastle services, trains required in Glasgow for the rush hour). It could even be possible to squeeze Girvan to Kilmarnock into a (roughly) hourly service with every second service stopping at Prestwick Town/Airport but this will leave little room for freight traffic on the single line from Barassie. It could also cause problems if there were any delays.

    The Sunday services via Kilwinning are mostly harmless and I think that they should stay. I am aware that the line via Kilwinning tends to be quite busy Monday to Saturday and it may not make much difference if the Stranraer services were axed (one such service leaves Glasgow at 0938 and doesn't reach Ayr until 1037, following a stopping service throughout the journey), but the Sunday service doesn't have many problems and the 1249 arrival from Stranraer in Glasgow allows passengers five hours in the city.

    Anyway, the current service to Stranraer especially has flaws so I hope that there is at least some form of change to the official timetable. The projected timetable on OTT, while having obvious flaws, is a start and it would be nice to see some of it implemented onto the official timetable. As TS mentioned in the article, the main problem with allowing a service like this to occur is infrastructure.

    It will be interesting to see how the final timetable turns out.
     
  31. Searle

    Searle Established Member

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    I wouldn't really describe this as nice, but a change nonetheless :P
     
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