December 2018 timetable changes (some now confirmed scrapped) - contagion spreads

[The Planner]

Dec 2018 should have been offered by now and hasn't been. Will almost certainly impact on STP even further than already heavily impacted.

Yes it will almost certainly create issues at NR between those broadly standing still and those that are changing. Its not the way I would have chosen to do it but there we are.

Apart from weekends, we did offer it, as Wilts said.

 

[pt_mad]

Does anyone know broadly what the planned timetable changes are at VTWC? Anything drastic?

 

[cactustwirly]

Does anyone know broadly what the planned timetable changes are at VTWC? Anything drastic?

Shouldn't be, probably just a minor retiming of services

 

[Class 170101]

Apart from weekends, we did offer it, as Wilts said.

I have heard suggestions that it may not stand.

 

[The Planner]

That may be the case but it was still offered.

 

[DaveHarries]

And the Berks and Hants line electric stock - will we get longer trains on the old timetable? Anyone know where I can find what is planned for GWR?

Pity that GWR are to continue with their May timetable but they will be printing a lot of leaflets: I picked up a Severn beach one this morning which gave the validity date as being until 31st December 2018.

I believe the plan will be that when the new timetables take effect for GWR there is to be a full recast of services to & from London Paddington, Bristol, South Wales, Devon & Cornwall. IIRC I read somewhere that Bristol Parkway and Bristol Temple Meads will see a combined total of up to 7tph to & from London Paddington which, I guess, will comprise:

- up to 3tph Bristol TM - Bath Spa - Swindon - Reading - Paddington
- up to 3tph Cardiff Central - Bristol Parkway - Swindon - Reading - Paddington (of which 1 will start from Swansea)
- 1tph Bristol TM - Bristol Parkway - Swindon - Reading - Paddington (using the extra capacity available due to the new track on Filton bank)

In addition to that lot I believe that a plan is afoot for more trains between Exeter, Plymouth and Penzance (2tph?) of which some will be London Paddington services. However I believe I am right in thinking that not all of the Paddington services will call at Westbury. On their website GWR say that "major track layout changes" are to be put in place during an 11-day blockade at Westbury (22nd December 2018 - 01st January 2019).

Wait and see: the changes could well be worth waiting for.

Dave

 

[alansheppard77]

Pity that GWR are to continue with their May timetable but they will be printing a lot of leaflets: I picked up a Severn beach one this morning which gave the validity date as being until 31st December 2018.

I believe the plan will be that when the new timetables take effect for GWR there is to be a full recast of services to & from London Paddington, Bristol, South Wales, Devon & Cornwall. IIRC I read somewhere that Bristol Parkway and Bristol Temple Meads will see a combined total of up to 7tph to & from London Paddington which, I guess, will comprise:

- up to 3tph Bristol TM - Bath Spa - Swindon - Reading - Paddington
- up to 3tph Cardiff Central - Bristol Parkway - Swindon - Reading - Paddington (of which 1 will start from Swansea)
- 1tph Bristol TM - Bristol Parkway - Swindon - Reading - Paddington (using the extra capacity available due to the new track on Filton bank)

In addition to that lot I believe that a plan is afoot for more trains between Exeter, Plymouth and Penzance (2tph?) of which some will be London Paddington services. However I believe I am right in thinking that not all of the Paddington services will call at Westbury. On their website GWR say that "major track layout changes" are to be put in place during an 11-day blockade at Westbury (22nd December 2018 - 01st January 2019).

Wait and see: the changes could well be worth waiting for.

Dave

not enough staff to run any of the above

 

[43074]

I believe the plan will be that when the new timetables take effect for GWR there is to be a full recast of services to & from London Paddington, Bristol, South Wales, Devon & Cornwall. IIRC I read somewhere that Bristol Parkway and Bristol Temple Meads will see a combined total of up to 7tph to & from London Paddington which, I guess, will comprise:

- up to 3tph Bristol TM - Bath Spa - Swindon - Reading - Paddington
- up to 3tph Cardiff Central - Bristol Parkway - Swindon - Reading - Paddington (of which 1 will start from Swansea)
- 1tph Bristol TM - Bristol Parkway - Swindon - Reading - Paddington (using the extra capacity available due to the new track on Filton bank)

Not quite right; the plan is for 2tph Bristol Temple Meads to London via Bath, 2tph Bristol Temple Meads to Paddington via Bristol Parkway (non-stop to London from Parkway) and 2tph South Wales to London, 1 of which starting from Swansea the other from Cardiff, as stated in the various stakeholder documents linked to in one of the other GWR threads.

 

[swt_passenger]

Not quite right; the plan is for 2tph Bristol Temple Meads to London via Bath, 2tph Bristol Temple Meads to Paddington via Bristol Parkway (non-stop to London from Parkway) and 2tph South Wales to London, 1 of which starting from Swansea the other from Cardiff, as stated in the various stakeholder documents linked to in one of the other GWR threads.

That’s the off peak pattern, but it is amended slightly in the morning and evening peak flow directions. There’s a diagram in the 2015 GW stakeholder brief, that shows certain routes get 2 tph all day, but some of the other paths are shown partially as thick lines which are split west of Swindon with differing peak origins or destinations.

Diagram is on page 24 of this:
http://www.avocetline.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/October-2015-GWR-Franchise-Update-MK3.pdf

 

[NorthernSpirit]

However I believe I am right in thinking that not all of the Paddington services will call at Westbury. On their website GWR say that "major track layout changes" are to be put in place during an 11-day blockade at Westbury (22nd December 2018 - 01st January 2019).

I'm wondering if Westbury could end up with a fourth platform out of this major track layout changes? Which if it did then we could see more Paddington services call there.

 

[Kite159]

I'm wondering if Westbury could end up with a fourth platform out of this major track layout changes? Which if it did then we could see more Paddington services call there.

That would be far too sensible for the reception line to be skewed back alongside the former platform so it can be used as a platform again

 

[BMIFlyer]

TPE will delay the planned Dec 2018 Liverpool to Glasgow service introduction.

TPE will continue to run the WCML service non stop from MAN to Preston via Wigan until May 2019.

 

[pemma]

TPE will delay the planned Dec 2018 Liverpool to Glasgow service introduction.

TPE will continue to run the WCML service non stop from MAN to Preston via Wigan until May 2019.

Apparently Northern won't be trying to implement any chances which rely on Bolton electrification being completed either. I don't know where that leaves sorting out the 'South Manchester' group or the peak time Atherton line services or whether they'll plan to use any 769s or CAF trains from December.

 

[thealexweb]

TPE will delay the planned Dec 2018 Liverpool to Glasgow service introduction.

TPE will continue to run the WCML service non stop from MAN to Preston via Wigan until May 2019.

That's me done waiting for direct Bolton to Edinburgh trains to return. I'm buying a new car. After five years of waiting I have lost patience and confidence with those that run our railways.

 

[Starmill]

Rail journeys from Bolton to Edinburgh with a single change are not especially difficult or slow. Similarly, driving is not competitive on time, even with the change of trains.

There are many other routes where I would look at a peak time commute to Manchester and see the service as unacceptably poor because of capacity, quality and speed problems.

 

[thealexweb]

Rail journeys from Bolton to Edinburgh with a single change are not especially difficult or slow. Similarly, driving is not competitive on time, even with the change of trains.

There are many other routes where I would look at a peak time commute to Manchester and see the service as unacceptably poor because of capacity, quality and speed problems.

Having done the journey hundreds of times over the last few years I would somewhat disagree.

Direct Bolton to Edinburgh runs have been done in 2hr52 with a Class 185 before now. So probably even quicker with an electric/tilting/125mph Class 397. At the moment its roughly 3hr20 changing at Preston and 3hr40 changing at Wigan. So changing at Wigan stations incurs the 20 mins time penalty but increases the chances of getting your booked seat/luggage space. Changing at Preston means 90% of the time someone will already be in your reserved seat and reluctant to move. I can usually drive Bolton to Edinburgh in just under four hours but the convenience of door to door does make it an overall quicker journey.

I am not disputing other services are poor to but I can't comment on these I do not use/familiar with.

 

[Starmill]

A brief look reveals a number of journey opportunities that take less than 3h 20. Also if you are concerned that people are sitting in your reserved seat at Preston on an 11 car train, I would imagine this will be far, far worse on a 5 car train (particularly where this replaces a current 8 car train ) which isn't even shown on the screen in Manchester as calling at Bolton, so people won't naturally be expecting the train to stop.

The new trains won't tilt or travel at higher speeds than the current ones anyway.

 

[Esker-pades]

A brief look reveals a number of journey opportunities that take less than 3h 20. Also if you are concerned that people are sitting in your reserved seat at Preston on an 11 car train, I would imagine this will be far, far worse on a 5 car train (particularly where this replaces a current 8 car train ) which isn't even shown on the screen in Manchester as calling at Bolton, so people won't naturally be expecting the train to stop.

The new trains won't tilt or travel at higher speeds than the current ones anyway.

110mph (350) compared to 125mph (397/802)? That is faster in my book.

 

[Starmill]

Except that 397s aren't permitted to use EPS speeds. What gives you the idea that 802s will be running on the WCML?

It remains to be seen if authorisation for them to travel at 115mph on certain stretches will be possible, as per the rumour.

 

[Goldfish62]

The cynic in me wonders if some of the changes will turn from postponed into cancelled. Eg Thameslink "unworkable", SWR "no longer a business case due to the decline in passenger numbers".

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Except that 397s aren't permitted to use EPS speeds. What gives you the idea that 802s will be running on the WCML?

Manchester-Edinburgh via York, when it comes, will always be slower than Manchester-Edinburgh via Carlisle, by about 30 minutes.
That's even if the trains do 125mph on the ECML rather than 110mph on the WCML - it's roughly 265 miles versus 221.
In any case there is very little 125mph running on the ECML north of Darlington.

 

[swt_passenger]

...SWR "no longer a business case due to the decline in passenger numbers".

...and therefore no longer any need for those tatty old 442s.

 

[Esker-pades]

Except that 397s aren't permitted to use EPS speeds. What gives you the idea that 802s will be running on the WCML?

It remains to be seen if authorisation for them to travel at 115mph on certain stretches will be possible, as per the rumour.

I was unaware of the route allocation of the 802 with TPX.

 

[SwindonBert]

The plans are to run (almost all) the Cheltenham trains to Paddington rather than alternate ones to Swindon using 800s from December, does that mean 800s running between Swindon & Cheltenham or the current local trains?

 

[jfollows]

I have posted an article from The Times today in the SWT/SWR thread

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-a-mixed-start-to-life-as-a-toc.164596/page-6

that "the South Western Railway franchise is having to be renegotiated because of the operational and financial implications of the scrapping of big timetable changes due to be made in December"

 

[Clarence Yard]

That's standard procedure. As the DfT has postponed the timetable change, "Franchise Change" kicks in for the affected TOCs.

What "The Times" doesn't realize is that the change procedure holds the TOC financially harmless for the effect of this change event so there is no financial risk for the TOC.

 

[Batman]

Have the DfT banned WMT from having any timetable changes at all this December? There are at least two I can think of which need to implemented as they have an effect on other operators.

The hourly Birmingham - Shrewsbury stopper will be needed on Sundays to take over from ATW’s Wolves - Shrewsbury shuttle. And XC will be pretty p***ed off if they lose one of their two paths per hour between Coventry and Leamington in Sunday’s only for the shuttle service not to run.

Also, I can’t see any reason for the withdrawal of the Fridays only Birmingham to Gloucester via Worcester service to go ahead as it serves no purposes other than retention of route knowledge that it’s already been decided is no longer needed.

 

[Ianno87]

110mph (350) compared to 125mph (397/802)? That is faster in my book.

350s however, have better low end acceleration and shorter dwell times that balance out a fair chunk of the difference.

 

[83G/84D]

Pity that GWR are to continue with their May timetable but they will be printing a lot of leaflets: I picked up a Severn beach one this morning which gave the validity date as being until 31st December 2018.

I believe the plan will be that when the new timetables take effect for GWR there is to be a full recast of services to & from London Paddington, Bristol, South Wales, Devon & Cornwall. IIRC I read somewhere that Bristol Parkway and Bristol Temple Meads will see a combined total of up to 7tph to & from London Paddington which, I guess, will comprise:

- up to 3tph Bristol TM - Bath Spa - Swindon - Reading - Paddington
- up to 3tph Cardiff Central - Bristol Parkway - Swindon - Reading - Paddington (of which 1 will start from Swansea)
- 1tph Bristol TM - Bristol Parkway - Swindon - Reading - Paddington (using the extra capacity available due to the new track on Filton bank)

In addition to that lot I believe that a plan is afoot for more trains between Exeter, Plymouth and Penzance (2tph?) of which some will be London Paddington services. However I believe I am right in thinking that not all of the Paddington services will call at Westbury. On their website GWR say that "major track layout changes" are to be put in place during an 11-day blockade at Westbury (22nd December 2018 - 01st January 2019).

Wait and see: the changes could well be worth waiting for.

Dave

The enhanced and recast timetable for Devon and Cornwall has been delayed until Spring 2019 if local rumours are to be believed. IET introduction to the area also put back to at least September according to what GWR staff are saying.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

The enhanced and recast timetable for Devon and Cornwall has been delayed until Spring 2019 if local rumours are to be believed. IET introduction to the area also put back to at least September according to what GWR staff are saying.

First IET in service to Devon is this Saturday, 0818 Paddington-Paignton and return. (Retimed for engineering block at Newbury.)

Class 802 service introduction planned for 20th August.