December 2018 timetable changes (some now confirmed scrapped) - contagion spreads

[Andyh82]

At a quick glance - Preston to York through services are the only notable change. A few minor timing revisions and previously omitted stops added to services e.g. adding Stockport to Stoke-Manchester services. No Sunday enhancements and Buckshaw Parkway terminators remain, as does the mess timings at Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme.

Still not reinstating the Leeds to Blackpool then, which due to various events has ended up going from a temporary change to permanent.

So TPE have basically reverted entirely to the pre May timetable with 5 trains per hour between Leeds and Manchester, and two split stoppers. Might as well give the stoppers back to Northern. It now makes even less sense TPE running these services.

The people who were complaining about no longer having a service to the next village will be happy now all the stops have moved back to the stopper.

 

[323235]

Still not reinstating the Leeds to Blackpool then, which due to various events has ended up going from a temporary change to permanent.

So TPE have basically reverted entirely to the pre May timetable with 5 trains per hour between Leeds and Manchester, and two split stoppers. Might as well give the stoppers back to Northern. It now makes even less sense TPE running these services.

The people who were complaining about no longer having a service to the next village will be happy now all the stops have moved back to the stopper.

Not quite - Mossley is still included in the Hull service and 185s timings only just fit into the timetable from Manchester - Huddersfield on 100mph timings.

 

[323235]

At a quick glance - Preston to York through services are the only notable change. A few minor timing revisions and previously omitted stops added to services e.g. adding Stockport to Stoke-Manchester services. No Sunday enhancements and Buckshaw Parkway terminators remain, as does the mess timings at Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme.

I can't see any evidence of Stockport stops reinstated at all - there are still services from Hazel Grove , Alderley Edge and Stockport missing out Stockport and the unusual Saturday patterns in the afternoon.

A few of the addition sunday enhancements are in the system too on the Stoke line , more to come.

 

[AmateurRambler]

According to Realtime Trains, the current Northern Preston - Leeds service is extended to York, stopping only at Church Fenton. A Leeds - York stopper (omitting Church Fenton) runs in the current paths. These services seem to be inter-worked. Services to / from Manchester Victoria, Hudderfield via Brighouse, and Selby appear to be self-contained, some with generous layovers.

 

[pemma]

Still not reinstating the Leeds to Blackpool then, which due to various events has ended up going from a temporary change to permanent.

What do you mean by permanent? Northern are planning on the basis that Bolton wiring still won't be ready on the December timetable change date. Liverpool temporarily lost it's Blackpool services for a lot longer than Leeds will over the decision to split to route to free up DMUs to indirectly replace the 170s that TPE lost. Arriva still have a franchise commitment to launch Blackpool to York as a Northern Connect standard route at the end of 2019.

 

[pemma]

I can't see any evidence of Stockport stops reinstated at all - there are still services from Hazel Grove , Alderley Edge and Stockport missing out Stockport and the unusual Saturday patterns in the afternoon.

A few of the addition sunday enhancements are in the system too on the Stoke line , more to come.

Maybe I put Congleton in the later calls box at Stockport instead of earlier calls box.

 

[RailAleFan]

Comparison tool updated for current and winter 2018/2019 (provisional)

https://live-departures.info/rail/timetable-comparison/

As there is little or no change in many cases I've added a "Compressed" view option that only shows those minutes during service that differ between timetables for the query.

 

[Siemens Staines]

Thank you for this comparison tool. Is there a way to change the reference date? Unfortunately 5th November is a SWR leaf fall timetable date (post 7th October) so what looks like lots of changes are just differences due to the leaf fall timetable.

 

[RailAleFan]

Thank you for this comparison tool. Is there a way to change the reference date? Unfortunately 5th November is a SWR leaf fall timetable date (post 7th October) so what looks like lots of changes are just differences due to the leaf fall timetable.

Thanks for pointing that out - I've changed the current timetable week compared to this week which just gets in before any leaf fall changes;

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/201009.aspx

 

[Siemens Staines]

Thank you for taking the time to do that. It all looks a lot more straightforward now!

 

[Bikeman78]

Passengers who depend on the stoppers are every bit as entitled to a decent train service as you are.

It's those of us dependent on the stoppers who have really suffered.

It’s a lot easier for you to work round a delay on an express that runs every 15' than it is for me to work round the frequent (and sometimes consecutive) cancellations of the hourly stopper creating three hour gaps with no service.

Don't TPE put stop orders on the next train if they cancel a stopper? If a train is cancelled between Cardiff and Shrewsbury, the next one will always have extra stops as required.

 

[snookertam]

Don't TPE put stop orders on the next train if they cancel a stopper? If a train is cancelled between Cardiff and Shrewsbury, the next one will always have extra stops as required.

Can't speak necessarily about TPE but decisions on whether to put Special Stop Orders on express services will differ between TOC and even on each route. Putting Special Stop Orders on an express service can cause delay on that train, so before taking the decision a control room would have to consider that unit and traincrew next workings to determine whether it can absorb any delay. The reaction to any delay en route has to be considered. On a more congested route, the chances of additional stops being provided to serve smaller stations is less likely, and the TOC in question would probably rather use taxis if necessary. That's certainly how it works in Scotland.

 

[nr758123]

Don't TPE put stop orders on the next train if they cancel a stopper? If a train is cancelled between Cardiff and Shrewsbury, the next one will always have extra stops as required.

Very rarely are stop orders put in, even though the clear understanding from a public meeting in Mossley four days before the timetable change is that they would.

 

[agbrs_Jack]

I can't see any evidence of Stockport stops reinstated at all - there are still services from Hazel Grove , Alderley Edge and Stockport missing out Stockport and the unusual Saturday patterns in the afternoon.

A few of the addition sunday enhancements are in the system too on the Stoke line , more to come.

I've been told by northern (email) that MAN-CNG-SOT hourly sunday service won't be implemented until May.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Don't TPE put stop orders on the next train if they cancel a stopper? If a train is cancelled between Cardiff and Shrewsbury, the next one will always have extra stops as required.

No. You just get gaps of 1, 2 or 3 hours or more with no train.

 

[agbrs_Jack]

As this stands it seems some what unusual that stations between Macclesfield and Stoke can have more frequent service at 6am and 10-11pm (M-F) but has lost key peak services between 7am-8am and 5-7pm. On Saturdays the 5-7pm service is better for Congleton than weekdays.

I know that there is still work to be done on this once the Blackpool-Macclesfield/Stoke services launch next year.

From an operational stand point the last 2 peak time changes on weekdays (as ot stands) , do shift passengers south of Macclesfield onto quieter services.

To me the 2218 would be as much if not more useful on a Saturday when the last all operator Stoke service is 2143. On weekdays It leaves roughly 10 minutes after the last CrossCountry service from Piccadilly and half an hour after the usual hourly Stoke stopper.

I am also still somewhat disappointed at the removal of the former 2244 /2250 stopper in May 18, which could have been extended to Stoke Monday-Saturday. Both the 2250 and the 2314 have always been busy services on Friday and Saturday.

The reason Congleton has that M-F peak service missing is du to northern changing the time of the 1710 DGT-SOT in May 2018 to become the 1721 MAN-MAC. Was by far the busiest Congleton train and removing is has meant Northern are breaking their minimum service level commitment and therefore their franchise agreement.

2218 is better, but unconfirmed and still a bit too early, around the region of late 22xx or just after 2300 would be better as it allows for football and nights out. Northern have said BPN-SOT hourly Sunday services should be May 2019, but that doesn't explain the small increase currently in the Dec18 timetable.

Also; the MAC-MAN/MAN-MAC services skip the quieter stations (Adlington, Prestbury etc...) whereas the SOT-MAN services are all stations, surely that should be the other way around, especially as MAC passengers already get fast services from VT/XC.

 

[Kite159]

The reason Congleton has that M-F peak service missing is du to northern changing the time of the 1710 DGT-SOT in May 2018 to become the 1721 MAN-MAC. Was by far the busiest Congleton train and removing is has meant Northern are breaking their minimum service level commitment and therefore their franchise agreement.

2218 is better, but unconfirmed and still a bit too early, around the region of late 22xx or just after 2300 would be better as it allows for football and nights out. Northern have said BPN-SOT hourly Sunday services should be May 2019, but that doesn't explain the small increase currently in the Dec18 timetable.

Also; the MAC-MAN/MAN-MAC services skip the quieter stations (Adlington, Prestbury etc...) whereas the SOT-MAN services are all stations, surely that should be the other way around, especially as MAC passengers already get fast services from VT/XC.

Wasn't that the same pattern for the 2 trains an hour on the Mid Cheshire line, the Greenbank (?) short service would be semi-fast with the Chester being all the stations, where it would make more sense for the Greenbank to be all stops with the Chester running semi-fast to Greenbank.

----

At a quick glance, as expected no notable changes for the West of England line this time round, and I was looking forward to having an hourly service on Sundays.

 

[pemma]

Wasn't that the same pattern for the 2 trains an hour on the Mid Cheshire line, the Greenbank (?) short service would be semi-fast with the Chester being all the stations, where it would make more sense for the Greenbank to be all stops with the Chester running semi-fast to Greenbank.

In both the case of the Mid-Cheshire and Stoke services the specification was written on the basis that the longer services (Chester/Stoke) would be semi-fast and the shorter services (Greenbank/Macclesfield) would be all-stops, except at peak times when all services would be all stops. However, people complained as they think stations like Mobberley justify a direct hourly service to Chester at off-peak times and stations like Adlington should have a direct hourly service to Stoke at off-peak times. As neither enhancement has yet happened the final plan is as yet unknown.

A disadvantage of making Chester and Stoke services all-stops is the passengers will be less evenly distributed between the all-stops and the semi-fast services and you could end up with an overcrowded all-stops and a half empty semi-fast.

 

[Starmill]

However, people complained as they think stations like Mobberley justify a direct hourly service to Chester at off-peak times and stations like Adlington should have a direct hourly service to Stoke at off-peak times.

This was crazy then and it's still crazy now.

 

[Bikeman78]

No. You just get gaps of 1, 2 or 3 hours or more with no train.

That's outrageous, especially when they run four fast trains per hour. Put two extra stops on each one.

 

[agbrs_Jack]

This was crazy then and it's still crazy now.

You could skip Adlington on every other service. Most I’ve seen alight a peak time from MAN is 5. Compared to 114 at Congleton!

Therefore why Adlington has got a shiny new CIS and CNG hasn’t got anything is very confusing

 

[Kite159]

This was crazy then and it's still crazy now.

It's like Waterloo - Weymouth services being all stops beyond Southampton with the Waterloo - Poole services running semi-fast after Southampton. Just in case Bert & Ada from Sway wants to visit Dorchester and doesn't want the hassle of changing at Bournemouth/Poole.

Or Waterloo - Exeter services getting the Hampshire villages with the Waterloo - Salisbury shorts only calling at Andover, just in case someone from Overton wants a direct train to Feniton.

 

[TheDavibob]

Looking at RTT for 15 December the GN outer timetable on the Cambridge branch seems to be the same as the current Saturday timetable. Friday 14 December is showing the revised timetable with the revised evening Kings Lynn /Ely trains and also some Cambridge/Brighton trains that are currently not running are now showing each hour on weekdays.

I note the (Sat) 15th December now has a bunch of "Freight" paths (don't know if these are new or not) containing the services stripped from the May timetable (i.e. the Ely fast, the Brighton semifasts, most of the Kings Cross stoppers. Quickly checked and Peterborough-Horsham is similar, in fact so is most of the core service. Is this reason for optimism that some fraction of these services might actually exist, or do we have another half year of exceptionally crap weekend service?

 

[Kite159]

One thing I've noticed is the Edinburgh - Dundee stopping services have been extended to Arbroath calling at Carnoustie, Monifieth & Broughty Ferry giving those stations an hourly service.

 

[Starmill]

One thing I've noticed is the Edinburgh - Dundee stopping services have been extended to Arbroath calling at Carnoustie, Monifieth & Broughty Ferry giving those stations an hourly service.

Nearly everything ScotRail promised for May is being delivered in December, including these, the through trains from Edinburgh to Cumbernauld and the associated faster Stirling services. We should have all E&G services worked by 385s - and allegedly this will require 12 HST sets too.

 

[cle]

It's like Waterloo - Weymouth services being all stops beyond Southampton with the Waterloo - Poole services running semi-fast after Southampton. Just in case Bert & Ada from Sway wants to visit Dorchester and doesn't want the hassle of changing at Bournemouth/Poole.

Or Waterloo - Exeter services getting the Hampshire villages with the Waterloo - Salisbury shorts only calling at Andover, just in case someone from Overton wants a direct train to Feniton.

It’s crazy there isn’t a local coastway service category along there, as with the services ex-Brighton/Littlehampton etc, and with London services sped up.

 

[tbtc]

Presumably we can look forward to this silly "make the long distance service all-stops whilst introducing a fast service part way along the line" when Northern augment the Sheffield - Lincoln service with a Sheffield - Retford service (because the precious "Darnall to Lincoln" market will be seen as more important than faster services from Lincoln/ Gainsborough to Sheffield?

(if the same approach is taken as not he Manchester - Stoke and Manchester - Chester corridors that Northern run)

 

[Stopper]

Nearly everything ScotRail promised for May is being delivered in December, including these, the through trains from Edinburgh to Cumbernauld and the associated faster Stirling services. We should have all E&G services worked by 385s - and allegedly this will require 12 HST sets too.

If that does indeed happen, that’ll be me and a lot of other Linlithgow passengers headed for the car. I think there will be a noticeable reduction in passenger numbers from Linlithgow & Polmont...

 

[scrapy]

Presumably we can look forward to this silly "make the long distance service all-stops whilst introducing a fast service part way along the line" when Northern augment the Sheffield - Lincoln service with a Sheffield - Retford service (because the precious "Darnall to Lincoln" market will be seen as more important than faster services from Lincoln/ Gainsborough to Sheffield?

(if the same approach is taken as not he Manchester - Stoke and Manchester - Chester corridors that Northern run)

In the case of the Mid Cheshire line Northern planned to make the Chester train semi fast and the Greenbank one all stops. This was changed after pressure from the rail users group (whose chairman lives at Mobberley). In my opinion Northern should have stuck to their original plan on this one.

On the Stoke line it simply wasn't possible to put the Adlington and Prestbury stops on the Macclesfield terminator due to pathing and turn around times.

Neither of these issues should have a bearing on the Sheffield to Lincoln or Retford services.

 

[YorkshireBear]

The meeting didn't go well when TPE suggested short stopping at York:

https://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co...etable-rejected-by-northern-leaders-1-9348646

Something they did during the last two autumns that nobody noticed.... But not they kick off.