December 2019 Timetable Change

[800002]

I think I'm going crazy!

The SouthEastern schedules have disapeared from the Open Data Stream viewers (RTT and OTT and others). They are no longer present.


Any ideas on what has occured??

It appears now that SouthEastern schedules for Dec 19 have been uploaded and are now visible.

 

[jamess]

TfW also adding the Crewe-Shrewsbury stopping service on Sundays from the Dec 19 timetable too.

This is at the cost of some of the through CDF-MAN services skipping all stations between SHR and CRE

 

[Staffordian]

Dec 19 times for ScotRail now uploaded to TTT.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I think I'm going crazy!

The SouthEastern schedules have disapeared from the Open Data Stream viewers (RTT and OTT and others). They are no longer present.


Any ideas on what has occured??

We are still very much in the timetable finalisation period so until 84 days out everything you see is subject to change.

The data is most likely being refreshed for a number of reasons and will in due course appear again.

 

[800002]

We are still very much in the timetable finalisation period so until 84 days out everything you see is subject to change.

The data is most likely being refreshed for a number of reasons and will in due course appear again.

I'm struggling with the fact that they unpublised all the TOCs schedules.
Is there an option within the Open Data Stream to remove access it it and remove previous publications?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I'm struggling with the fact that they unpublised all the TOCs schedules.
Is there an option within the Open Data Stream to remove access it it and remove previous publications?

TOCs don’t require data to be published to downstream systems until 84 days out. Complete removal of all of one operators data would imply some error in the data previously uploaded.

 

[Staffordian]

TOCs don’t require data to be published to downstream systems until 84 days out. Complete removal of all of one operators data would imply some error in the data previously uploaded.

Apart from anything else, the Southeastern times showed a full weekday service on 26/12/2019 - but then so do all the other TOC’s !

 

[800002]

TOCs don’t require data to be published to downstream systems until 84 days out.

I believe this to be incorrect:-
Network Code, Part D 2,7.1 states, in relation to Timetable change publication
2.7 New Working Timetable Publication – D-26 2.7.1 The New Working Timetable shall be published by Network Rail at D-26, subject only to variations made in the course of the appeal process described in this Condition D2.7

That's 26 weeks prior to change date (which I haphazardly. Calculate at week ending 16th June 2019??).

You're correct in sofar as 84 days out equals Tw-12 which is when amendedments to to the WTT are (meant to be) published.

Apart from anything else, the Southeastern times showed a full weekday service on 26/12/2019 - but then so do all the other TOC’s !

Most of them GWR still to be uploaded and Cross Country (I believe)

 

[Staffordian]

Most of them GWR still to be uploaded and Cross Country (I believe)

As are Northern and London Northwestern

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I believe this to be incorrect:-
Network Code, Part D 2,7.1 states, in relation to Timetable change publication
2.7 New Working Timetable Publication – D-26 2.7.1 The New Working Timetable shall be published by Network Rail at D-26, subject only to variations made in the course of the appeal process described in this Condition D2.7

That's 26 weeks prior to change date (which I haphazardly. Calculate at week ending 16th June 2019??).

You're correct in sofar as 84 days out equals Tw-12 which is when amendedments to to the WTT are (meant to be) published.



Most of them GWR still to be uploaded and Cross Country (I believe)

You are confusing (and apologies I probably didn’t make it clear in my original reply) publication of schedules within the rail industry (as per network code above) and published to public systems such as Real Time Trains, Open Time Trains, NRES is what I am referring to.

The publication of the new working timetable you mention above is part of the timetable ‘offer’ process between Network Rail and operations and is not the publication (upload) to the general public which has to happen for T-12.

 

[800002]

published to public systems such as Real Time Trains, Open Time Trains, NRES

I was under the impression that NRES booking upload happens at 12 weeks out.
RTT and OTT etc are not 'public systems' per se, rather a representation of the NR Open Data Feed which the public has access to.
The timetable (WTT) is published, to the industry - and therefore publicly viewable at D-26. What TOCs decide to do between D-26 and T-12 is thier business, but the Base timetable remains the same (save any operator train variation requests and outstanding timetable offer dispute resolution).
The offer process is now complete - mostly.
The system operator validation process occurs between D-40 and D-26, at which time the new timetable is offered (as soon as it is published (uploaded into TRUST etc) the operator has been offered the train path and is entitled to run it (subject to a range of qualifying criteria).

Some TOCs have published their (current May 19) timetable for public viewing.
They acknowledge services more than 12 weeks in advance are subject to alteration.

 

[wls1]

Grand Central are introducing an extra morning Wakefield Kirkgate-Kings Cross service arriving at 0717, with an extra late night return service at 2147. They're also adding additional stops at Peterborough to certain services.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y75021/2019/12/17/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y72038/2019/12/17/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y72017/2019/12/17/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y75023/2019/12/17/advanced

 

[Iskra]

Grand Central are introducing an extra morning Wakefield Kirkgate-Kings Cross service arriving at 0717, with an extra late night return service at 2147. They're also adding additional stops at Peterborough to certain services.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y75021/2019/12/17/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y72038/2019/12/17/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y72017/2019/12/17/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y75023/2019/12/17/advanced

That's interesting, thanks for sharing.

 

[Class 466]

From December most of the SWR Shepperton services self form and will all be 10 car 707 to help improve performance (from an internal briefing).

 

[swt_passenger]

From December most of the SWR Shepperton services self form and will all be 10 car 707 to help improve performance (from an internal briefing).

Does “self form” mean they don’t interwork with other routes?

 

[TEW]

The Shepperton's largely don't interwork with other services at present, and that is a major cause of the poor performance. Short turnarouns at both ends and no interworking with other routes means small delays tend to build up.

 

[Ianno87]

The Shepperton's largely don't interwork with other services at present, and that is a major cause of the poor performance. Short turnarouns at both ends and no interworking with other routes means small delays tend to build up.

Unless a 707 will be a tiny bit quicker than a 455 and buy a bit more resilience?

But yes, for rolling stock the Sheppertons are already generally self-contained.

 

[Ianno87]

Grand Central are introducing an extra morning Wakefield Kirkgate-Kings Cross service arriving at 0717, with an extra late night return service at 2147. They're also adding additional stops at Peterborough to certain services.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y75021/2019/12/17/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y72038/2019/12/17/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y72017/2019/12/17/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y75023/2019/12/17/advanced

That answers the question of what happens to the 0803 Grand Central off King's Cross - moves to 0827 and gains a Peterborough stop.

 

[dk1]

Grand Central are introducing an extra morning Wakefield Kirkgate-Kings Cross service arriving at 0717, with an extra late night return service at 2147. They're also adding additional stops at Peterborough to certain services.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y75021/2019/12/17/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y72038/2019/12/17/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y72017/2019/12/17/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y75023/2019/12/17/advanced

Are Peterborough stops PIck Up Northbound & Set Down Southbound? Rather big coup on the farebox otherwise.

 

[_toommm_]

Are Peterborough stops PIck Up Northbound & Set Down Southbound? Rather big coup on the farebox otherwise.

At the moment its showing pick up and set down, although this could of course change.

 

[dk1]

At the moment its showing pick up and set down, although this could of course change.

Thanks. Doesn't seem fair to give them that much of a revenue raid.

 

[bramling]

GN and TL now uploaded.

Had a brief look through the GN side of things for my area, not noticed much of consequence.

KX to Cambridge North is cut back to Cambridge as expected, and the Moorgates go to KX in the evenings and weekends (with some platform, route changes and minor retimings of other services at KX in consequence). From this cursory glance all other 365 and 700 services look pretty much same as today. There’s a small number of platform changes at KX, presumably to accommodate LNER changes.

At weekends the Horsham to Peterborough service materialises on Saturdays, with Cambridge to Brighton remaining hourly.

Haven’t had a chance to have a look at the Kings Lynn route.

 

[800002]

GN and TL now uploaded.

Had a brief look through the GN side of things for my area, not noticed much of consequence.

KX to Cambridge North is cut back to Cambridge as expected, and the Moorgates go to KX in the evenings and weekends (with some platform and route changes at KX in consequence). From this cursory glance all other 365 and 700 services look pretty much same as today.

At weekends the Horsham to Peterborough service materialises on Saturdays, with Cambridge to Brighton remaining hourly.

Haven’t had a chance to have a look at the Kings Lynn route.

Well, why change something you can't get right in the first place
Would be good to be able to see TL and SE together, as we can with TL and SN.

 

[TEW]

Unless a 707 will be a tiny bit quicker than a 455 and buy a bit more resilience?

But yes, for rolling stock the Sheppertons are already generally self-contained.

I can't see it making a huge difference. 707s are slightly quicker, but the timetable is just too tight to work reliably. 7 minutes turnaround at Shepperton and 8 minutes at Waterloo.

 

[scrapy]

Are Peterborough stops PIck Up Northbound & Set Down Southbound? Rather big coup on the farebox otherwise.

Seems to just be the first Kings Cross to Sunderland northbound and last Sunderland to Kings Cross southbound. (I've only looked at weekdays)

 

[dk1]

Seems to just be the first Kings Cross to Sunderland northbound and last Sunderland to Kings Cross southbound. (I've only looked at weekdays)

Cheers for that. Will have a look later.

 

[TheBigD]

I seem to remember (but could be wrong) that Grand Central applied for the Peterborough stops and the extra Wakefield train a couple of years ago but was refused.

Have these extra stops and extra Wakefield service been approved this time???

 

[swt_passenger]

I seem to remember (but could be wrong) that Grand Central applied for the Peterborough stops and the extra Wakefield train a couple of years ago but was refused.

Have these extra stops and extra Wakefield service been approved this time???

The ORR website still seems to have these as pending section 22A applications for Dec 2018, but I haven’t found a decision online yet: https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/27687/s22a-grand-central-7th-sa-application-form.pdf
Needless to say there were numerous objections regarding revenue abstraction and a similar number of GC rebuttals...

I’ve also copied this into the dedicated GC Dec 2019 thread.

 

[Scotrail88]

Not sure the guy who usually creates it - but would be good for the comparison from real time trains to be updated for December

thanks in advance as it’s a great and useful tool!

 

[43074]

There are 3 XC services on the Newcastle route which have been accelerated by around 20 minutes (0928, 1028 and 1528 from New Street). Unfortunately the Nottingham services which depart in front of them now get a rubbish path between Derby and Nottingham, in one case giving a journey time of 28 minutes and journey times around 5 minutes longer overall. It also breaks the connection from Leicester etc which was previously available, so I suppose we can be grateful it hasn't been applied throughout the day!

Northern is also in open data systems, including an hourly Hull to Halifax, no sign of the previously promised Connect services via Wakefield Westgate or between Middlesbrough and Newcastle via Durham and more juggling of services in the Manchester area.