December 2020 Timetable Change

Thomas6187

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Unless, of course another train is yet to be added to the timetable departing Manchester sometime between 2212 and 2351, does anyone know if this likely?
The 2212 train seems a strange one as it is only 22 minutes after the previous one at 2150!
The odd timing are because the 22:15 arrival from Cardiff carries on as the 22:12 departure.
 
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Starmill

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This will mean a lot of hanging around Manchester after theatre, concert and football matches etc.
After what?

Stockport should be easy to add in as TfW already stop their Manchester to South Wales services there. Knutsford and Altrincham should be fine as long as they don't try to use 6 carriage trains, in which case it would be a tight fit or possibly have the ends off the platform. Also the Coradia trains did call at Knutsford and Altrincham when they were first introduced! Northwich may be an issue because of the hump that's been added to the platform, which has been added since the Coradia trains stopped there
It's long-standing that the first service from Chester to Manchester runs via Altrincham. There have been attempts to get it to stop at Stockport before, unsuccessfully.
 

Llandudno

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The odd timing are because the 22:15 arrival from Cardiff carries on as the 22:12 departure.
That’s as maybe, but I can’t imagine there is any cross-Manchester traffic on this train, it’s not publicly advertised anyway. Surely this train could terminate at Piccadilly and reverse into the excursion platform at Piccadilly and set off for Chester around 2245-2250?
 

Greybeard33

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On TPE North, 4tph restored between Manchester Victoria and Leeds, and 2tph to Liverpool. The standard service pattern appears to be Airport - Redcar Central, Liverpool - Scarborough, Victoria - Newcastle and Liverpool - York, with a few of the York services extended to Edinburgh.

Only 2 TPE tph through the Castlefield corridor (the Airport to Redcar and Glasgow/Edinburgh services), which should help maintain punctuality performance.
 

30907

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That’s as maybe, but I can’t imagine there is any cross-Manchester traffic on this train, it’s not publicly advertised anyway. Surely this train could terminate at Piccadilly and reverse into the excursion platform at Piccadilly and set off for Chester around 2245-2250?
The next train is currently 2314, but this is now starting back from the Airport, hence the gap.
Do you mean reverse into Mayfield Loop?
 

js1000

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A lot of shuffling with the Liverpool via Warrington Northern "express" service again it seems. Wilmslow culled again from the 07:48 6-coach peak service which will start at Manchester Airport. Increase from 3 to 10 services per day not yet showing.
 

PHILIPE

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That’s as maybe, but I can’t imagine there is any cross-Manchester traffic on this train, it’s not publicly advertised anyway. Surely this train could terminate at Piccadilly and reverse into the excursion platform at Piccadilly and set off for Chester around 2245-2250?

The train from Carmarthen is shown as 2215 arrival but WTT time is 2210 so can then run forward at 2212 and the 2052 ex Chester shunts across from Platform 13 to Platform 11 and works the 2236 to Crewe. This arrangement is for diagramming purposes to get the Carmarthen unit back to Chester Depot.
 

Llandudno

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The next train is currently 2314, but this is now starting back from the Airport, hence the gap.
Do you mean reverse into Mayfield Loop?
Yes, the Mayfield loop.

Surely there are plenty of other trains from the Airport to Piccadilly, rather than delay the 2314 to 2351?
 

peters

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Crikey there will be a huge gap in service from Manchester to Chester via Warrington BQ from 2212 until 2351. This will mean a lot of hanging around Manchester after theatre, concert and football matches etc.
Plenty of pubs and bars to frequent, but not great midweek if you have work or school the following day.

The other issue is that passengers for stations west of Chester will not be able to connect onto the last NW Coast train which departs Chester at 0040, as the 2351 arrives in Chester at 0056.

Unless, of course another train is yet to be added to the timetable departing Manchester sometime between 2212 and 2351, does anyone know if this likely?
The 2212 train seems a strange one as it is only 22 minutes after the previous one at 2150!

Otherwise you can endure 90+ minutes on the all shacks 2241 Northern train via Northwich I suppose!
There are often a lot of complaints about the last trains from Manchester being too early so I'm sure some people will welcome the last train being moved to be 40 minutes later.

The other option is:
22:36 Piccadilly to Crewe
23:30 Crewe to Chester (arrives 23:53)

For anyone wanting the North Wales connection you refer to then the 22:41 all stops via Northwich will probably be easier as what's the point of changing to arrive at Chester slightly quicker if there's ample time to change at Chester.

Although, of course going via Crewe or Altrincham is no good for Runcorn East, Helsby and Frodsham, while other trains serve Warrington Bank Quay, Earlestown and Newton-le-Willows.
 

30907

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Yes, the Mayfield loop.

Surely there are plenty of other trains from the Airport to Piccadilly, rather than delay the 2314 to 2351?
Yes (Northern aren't uploaded yet, but there are TPs either side of the new Chester). However, TfW are keen to run N Wales-Airport so....
 

Llandudno

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Yes (Northern aren't uploaded yet, but there are TPs either side of the new Chester). However, TfW are keen to run N Wales-Airport so....
TfW are keen to run more trains from Manchester Airport to north Wales. However, the train from the Airport which forms the 2351 from Manchester has no connection at Chester to north Wales, as it arrives slightly after the 0040 Chester to Holyhead.
 

infobleep

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Quite a lot of the data now showing on opentraintimes.com

As I and a number of others have predicted, it's a strong suggestion that most of the cuts that were made in March are not, if they aren't already, going to be reversed in December.
I don't understand why, given we are heading into winter, they would want to return to pre March levels when in the summer they didn't.

Winter is when viruses can be more prevalent, as can be seen by rising numbers.

Back to the changes though, I see the 23;45 Waterloo to Portsmouth Harbour service is returning. It is of course only the base timetable. It may not run in practise if there is no demand.

The -Guildford to Waterloo via Bookham trains are hourly during the middle of the day and they depart at different times to now.

Prior to covid-19 they departed x28 and x58. Now it's also x45 for parts of the day.

The ones to be careful about are the 0657, 1141 and 1756, as they all depart slightly earlier than you might expect. Still no 0828 replaced the old Southern 08:12 service that went a few years ago.

None of the Southern Guildford via Sutton services are shown, so maybe those still aren't running.

The full list
0458
0528
0558
0628
0657
0729
0758
0858
0945
1045
1141
1245
1345
1445
1528
1558
1628
1658
1728
1756
1828
1928
1958
2045
2145
2246
 
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Class 170101

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When did Avanti / Virgin start running early morning trains from Crewe to Manchester? I notice them in December 2020 Timetable and they appear to run now but I'm sure thats only a recent thing.
 

Mintona

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It looks as though the hourly Cardiff - Paddington service is being reintroduced throughout the day so South Wales is half hourly again from London.
 

PHILIPE

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It looks as though the hourly Cardiff - Paddington service is being reintroduced throughout the day so South Wales is half hourly again from London.
I'd hold off on many things in the Timetable at the moment as there could be COVID STP alterations yet.
 

Mintona

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I'd hold off on many things in the Timetable at the moment as there could be COVID STP alterations yet.
I was looking on thetrainline journey planner rather than realtimetrains, I’d like to think it wouldn’t be possible to book a ticket on a train that won’t run, but I guess it’s not100% yet.

Incidentally, rtt shows the half hourly Bristol TM - Bristol Parkway - London Paddington trains as running; however they do not appear on journey planner.
 

Starmill

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When did Avanti / Virgin start running early morning trains from Crewe to Manchester? I notice them in December 2020 Timetable and they appear to run now but I'm sure thats only a recent thing.
The 0610 has been running for a very long time. The 0710 has been running for about 4 years.

I’d like to think it wouldn’t be possible to book a ticket on a train that won’t run
This happens frequently I'm afraid.
 

Bikeman78

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Incidentally, rtt shows the half hourly Bristol TM - Bristol Parkway - London Paddington trains as running; however they do not appear on journey planner.
I'll be surprised if those run for the foreseeable. I'm glad I managed one run the in the short period that they ran. As a bonus, it even overtook the late running Swansea to Paddington at Reading that I'd bailed off at Bristol Parkway!
 

jfollows

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The 0610 has been running for a very long time. The 0710 has been running for about 4 years.
I live in Wilmslow and I've never needed to use the 06:10 from Crewe, but the 07:10 has been very useful because it's been a carriage to myself (First Class) instead of one of the busiest stopping EMU services of the morning. As Starmill says, it's a relatively recent introduction, whereas the 06:10 has been there from the start of the Virgin timetable. It's worth checking the ECS for the 07:10 on RealTime Trains, however, to ensure that it's running - it used to run empty from Longsight to Crewe but more recently I've seen it running empty from Edge Hill to Crewe instead.

EDIT - today 5K50 06:06 Edge Hill to Crewe, https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/S40026/2020-10-19/detailed
 

jfollows

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The 0610 has been running for a very long time. The 0710 has been running for about 4 years.
1H50 07:10 Crewe to Manchester Piccadilly was introduced in the timetable starting Monday 21 May 2018

When it was introduced, it probably helped declutter Longsight by getting its set out at 6am for a return trip to Crewe, which otherwise would have waited at Longsight until running to Piccadilly as ECS for 1A12, 08:15 to Euston. Currently, as I noted above, the ECS comes from Edge Hill, although leaving there just after 6am probably helps in a similar fashion too. When starting from Longsight, the ECS and 1H50 would sometimes get cancelled, presumably due to a shortage of sets ready in time after overnight maintenance.
 
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Llandudno

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TfW are keen to run more trains from Manchester Airport to north Wales. However, the train from the Airport which forms the 2351 from Manchester has no connection at Chester to north Wales, as it arrives slightly after the 0040 Chester to Holyhead.
Is there any reason why the 0040 Chester to Holyhead can’t be retimed slightly to say, 0053 then the 2351 ex Manchester (and 2006 ex Glasgow!) connections can be maintained?

It would keep me quiet anyway!
 

Bikeman78

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I see the full service from Liverpool Street to Norwich and Stansted Airport is in the system. That will require an impressive improvement in class 745 availability. Are they genuinely planning to run them all from December?
 

306024

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I see the full service from Liverpool Street to Norwich and Stansted Airport is in the system. That will require an impressive improvement in class 745 availability. Are they genuinely planning to run them all from December?
Plenty of time for STP amendments yet, it is easier to have the base plan uploaded before you then amend it. In days before RTT this was all done before the timetable was visible to the public.

As for 745 availability, yes indeed, but there should be a few 755s spare if they are cleared for passenger service to Liverpool St by then.
 

Parallel

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That is the full base Timetable but there could be STP alterations reducing services nearer the time
What is strange is that there’s an ECS arrival just after 10am at Brighton from Romsey (GWR), but the first GWR departure is 15:47, formed off the 14:49 arrival.
 

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