December 2022 Timetable Changes

[WizCastro197]

The provisional timetable looks exactly the same to me for LUMO

Do you mind linking the site where you found such timetable

It would really help me in the future
Thanks

 

[hexagon789]

Do you mind linking the site where you found such timetable

It would really help me in the future
Thanks

Railway Data, they have regularly updated timetables for the GB network and the provisional December timetable has been available for some weeks now.

Table 4 is the ECML:

The Railway Data Centre | Table 4 - Glasgow & Edinburgh - Newcastle - York, Leeds & London | Winter 2022/23

The Railway Data Centre is an independant provider British railway industry data in unique and different formats.

www.railwaydata.co.uk

 

[KingJ]

A full page on all the changes:

Timetable updates | Southeastern

www.southeasternrailway.co.uk

First Class is also going, although this isn't really a surprise given it's pretty much always empty.

Some interesting changes to Maidstone East services. The handful of recently introduced Blackfriars services go and are replaced with... an all-day service to Charing Cross.

Timings when they join the South Eastern Mainline at Chislehurst seems a little bit tight though - they're timed to pass through Chislehurst just 2½ minutes before a fast service from Sevenoaks - not helped by the re-timing of that service's departure from Sevenoaks being brought forward by 2 minutes compared to now! Thankfully on the return the Sevenoaks fast service departs before the Maidstone East service avoiding further reactionary delays should the Maidstone East service pick up a delay crossing the slow lines at Chislehurst on to the Reversible Chatham Loop.

Cut back, but extended 2tph to Paddock Wood so an improvement I'd say, will require a 4th unit to be out all day as well as more traincrew.

It's disappointing to see the loss of through services, but an improvement to the frequency through to Paddock Wood is definitely an improvement over the last time Southeastern curtailed the Medway Valley services to Paddock Wood - at least now if connections go awry, you won't be waiting an hour for the next service.

The same justification has been given as before though (emphasis mine);

Under the December timetable most trains on the Medway Valley Line will terminate at Paddock Wood to reduce congestion at Tonbridge. This is part of a plan to reduce congestion at all junctions, which will improve punctuality and see fewer cancellations.

Given these services continue through to Tonbridge during the busier peak period, and the new junction conflicts/congestion introduced by the Maidstone East to Charing Cross services this seems like a somewhat weak justification!

 

[Basil Jet]

Any Indication to when Lumo timetable may be out? Apologies if it has already been talked about

Fab digital December timetables are all up already. Lumo trains have LD heading in...
https://timetables.fabdigital.uk/nr...h East, Newcastle, Edinburgh and Scotland.pdf

The rest of the timetables are at https://timetables.fabdigital.uk/nrt/dec2022/

 

[Basil Jet]

Southeastern curtailed the Medway Valley services to Paddock Wood

Great, it only takes 5 trains to get from Medway to Gatwick!

 

[James90012]

The Maidstone East services look great, but the intervals between Thameslink and Southestern services via Greenwich are very poor.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

A full page on all the changes:

Timetable updates | Southeastern

www.southeasternrailway.co.uk

First Class is also going, although this isn't really a surprise given it's pretty much always empty.

Not running the Medway Valley line through to Tonbridge is very poor decision with a limp excuse of

Trains no longer run to Tonbridge except at school times and at the beginning and end of the day, to reduce congestion at Tonbridge. This is part of a plan to reduce congestion at all junctions, which will improve punctuality and see fewer cancellations. Change at Paddock Wood for trains to Tonbridge (8 & 13 minute interchange).

The timetable is the same at school hours as it is the rest of the day so it either works or it doesn't. When will the railway get you need to provide connectivity if you are going to promote modal shift.

 

[MikeWh]

You can’t keep using covid, people are going back to work, the “covid lifestyle” is over people, are travelling again, work from home is basically at its minimum at this point, let’s stop pretending we are in covid times.

So you're saying that all the people I talk to who still work from home 2-3 days a week are lying? I say to you, stop pretending travel is ever going to return to pre-pandemic levels as far as commuting is concerned. Spoiler: It's not. EVER.

Great, it only takes 5 trains to get from Medway to Gatwick!

Assuming you mean Gillingham/Chatham/Rochester, how many people seriously travel to Gatwick via Maidstone and Tonbridge? Either travel via Victoria or London Bridge - two trains in either case.

 

[NorthKent1989]

So you're saying that all the people I talk to who still work from home 2-3 days a week are lying? I say to you, stop pretending travel is ever going to return to pre-pandemic levels as far as commuting is concerned. Spoiler: It's not. EVER.

I’m not calling anyone a liar, I’m going by what I see, When I’m travelling either from Westcombe Park or Blackheath trains are much busier than they have been in the peaks in the last two years, so I can only go by my observations, I think most of us have moved on from covid now.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Some interesting changes to Maidstone East services. The handful of recently introduced Blackfriars services go and are replaced with... an all-day service to Charing Cross.

Timings when they join the South Eastern Mainline at Chislehurst seems a little bit tight though - they're timed to pass through Chislehurst just 2½ minutes before a fast service from Sevenoaks - not helped by the re-timing of that service's departure from Sevenoaks being brought forward by 2 minutes compared to now! Thankfully on the return the Sevenoaks fast service departs before the Maidstone East service avoiding further reactionary delays should the Maidstone East service pick up a delay crossing the slow lines at Chislehurst on to the Reversible Chatham Loop.



It's disappointing to see the loss of through services, but an improvement to the frequency through to Paddock Wood is definitely an improvement over the last time Southeastern curtailed the Medway Valley services to Paddock Wood - at least now if connections go awry, you won't be waiting an hour for the next service.

The same justification has been given as before though (emphasis mine);



Given these services continue through to Tonbridge during the busier peak period, and the new junction conflicts/congestion introduced by the Maidstone East to Charing Cross services this seems like a somewhat weak justification!

Fundamentally must agree. The fact the trains do not go through, at least hourly, is a farce. When you consider that the number of trains on the main line will be no more than now (they haven’t introduced the extra 2tph on the Ashford route as fast trains that were planned, nor are the Hastings trains using those accelerated paths), they have no justification to my mind.

It speaks to the wider issues of the fact that if you look at the timetable for the Tonbridge to Redhill route, not even one weekday service is more than a shuttle. The fact, therefore, it’s still Southern when they aren’t running a through service like when they first got it is another failure.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Not running the Medway Valley line through to Tonbridge is very poor decision with a limp excuse of


The timetable is the same at school hours as it is the rest of the day so it either works or it doesn't. When will the railway get you need to provide connectivity if you are going to promote modal shift.

It's not poor. Off Peak, there is far too much freight and seasonal traffic going through Tonbridge. The current timetable doesn't actually work and the only way to work is to take trains out of Tonbridge.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I’m not calling anyone a liar, I’m going by what I see, When I’m travelling either from Westcombe Park or Blackheath trains are much busier than they have been in the peaks in the last two years, so I can only go by my observations, I think most of us have moved on from covid now.

Just because you have seen trains a bit busier than April 2020, does not mean they are anywhere near the levels that were in 2019.

Add to that the very obvious fact there are significantly less trains at peak times, and you start to understand. There would have been about 14tph from Blackheath to London (all terminals) in December 2019, and they probably would have had a capacity of 8-10 coaches.

What you have now is something like 8tph, and therefore if those trains aren’t full and standing you haven’t even proved the return of the old 6tph’s worth of commuter traffic on the full and standing trains of yesterday.

It’s an illusion, but one which is making people believe there are many more passengers than before. This is why it’s time to strike out, radically change things, and people will still use them even if they have to change their habits.

 

[mangyiscute]

I’m not calling anyone a liar, I’m going by what I see, When I’m travelling either from Westcombe Park or Blackheath trains are much busier than they have been in the peaks in the last two years, so I can only go by my observations, I think most of us have moved on from covid now.

Yes more people are going back to work so trains are busier than recently, but many companies have figured that it's a lot cheaper to have working from home permanently for at least a few days a week, so commuter numbers are down and the figures show this - I personally don't think the numbers will ever recover to 2019 levels which is what pre pandemic is since I don't see working from home ever going away.

 

[Edsmith]

Great, it only takes 5 trains to get from Medway to Gatwick!

A through service from Strood to Gatwick Airport would be great, the last thing people laden with luggage want is multiple changes and at the moment the only realistic option is to go via London.

Yes more people are going back to work so trains are busier than recently, but many companies have figured that it's a lot cheaper to have working from home permanently for at least a few days a week, so commuter numbers are down and the figures show this - I personally don't think the numbers will ever recover to 2019 levels which is what pre pandemic is since I don't see working from home ever going away.

No we'll definitely never return to anything like 2019 commuting levels and working from home is only going to increase as technology advances.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

A through service from Strood to Gatwick Airport would be great, the last thing people laden with luggage want is multiple changes and the only realistic option is to go via London.

It’s also not realistic. Strood to Redhill perhaps, on an hourly basis, but that hinges on connections with the Ramsgate high-speed in both directions, and good quality connections at Tonbridge from East Kent (Hastings less important as they can go via Eastbourne).

Redhill to Gatwick is at least 6tph I think, even now, so the theoretical longest connection is about the time it would take a through train to change ends.

 

[mister-sparky]

Great, it only takes 5 trains to get from Medway to Gatwick!

No just 2. Medway to London Bridge. And London Bridge to Gatwick.

 

[JonathanH]

A through service from Strood to Gatwick Airport would be great, the last thing people laden with luggage want is multiple changes and the only realistic option is to go via London.

Unfortunately, previous attempts to run such services have shown that demand for a slow trundle on this route is practically inexistant even on through trains. Far more straightforward to go via London, particularly when Maidstone is linked to London Bridge (albeit more expensive).

 

[ScotGG]

Yes more people are going back to work so trains are busier than recently, but many companies have figured that it's a lot cheaper to have working from home permanently for at least a few days a week, so commuter numbers are down and the figures show this - I personally don't think the numbers will ever recover to 2019 levels which is what pre pandemic is since I don't see working from home ever going away.

"Will ever recover".

A bold statement given how the population is still shooting up in London and SE and East London are the main areas of growth.

Take a look at ONS figures recently.

In 5-10 years we'll look back fondly at those who predicted things would never recover to 2019 levels.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I'm most surprised by the continued non reintroduction of the second high-speed service per hour from faversham to to London. Demand on the existing service is quite high even off peak and I am a regular user of the service when I'm in the south. After a couple of incidences of being left behind I've switched my business to elsewhere and this is clearly all too common as various southeastern booking offices have issued me a refund for the difference where applicable without so much as a raised eyebrow.

 

[Kite159]

No just 2. Medway to London Bridge. And London Bridge to Gatwick.

Most likely at a much higher cost.

 

[brad465]

I'm most surprised by the continued non reintroduction of the second high-speed service per hour from faversham to to London. Demand on the existing service is quite high even off peak and I am a regular user of the service when I'm in the south. After a couple of incidences of being left behind I've switched my business to elsewhere and this is clearly all too common as various southeastern booking offices have issued me a refund for the difference where applicable without so much as a raised eyebrow.

While this is certainly a problem, at least the Medway Valley line being back to 2tph all day midweek means the connection time at Strood is decent in both directions; before it was over half an hour London bound, and of course if the HS service coming the other way was late enough, the resultant delay would be an hour rather than half an hour.

 

[NorthKent1989]

"Will ever recover".

A bold statement given how the population is still shooting up in London and SE and East London are the main areas of growth.

Take a look at ONS figures recently.

In 5-10 years we'll look back fondly at those who predicted things would never recover to 2019 levels.

Exactly, I think people overestimated working from home, we will go back to 2019 levels eventually, that’s why I think SE are having a knee jerk reaction, trains may not be like they were in 2019 but it’s nearer to that point than it is to 2020-2021.

Just because you have seen trains a bit busier than April 2020, does not mean they are anywhere near the levels that were in 2019.

It doesn’t mean that they won’t be at that level again either, especially as we move further away from covid, I commute every day and I’ve seen how busy trains from both Woolwich and Bexleyheath have been.

 

[PGAT]

It's 2022 and in some areas rail passengers are about 90-93% of their pre-pandemic levels. I'm no mathematician, but the services we have right now are definitely not at 93% of what they used to be.

 

[mangyiscute]

by it not recovering, I mean purely in terms of peak number and commuters which definitely have not returned to previous numbers. I think everyone agrees that off peak timetables should be back to pre pandemic levels as the demand warrants that, but a slightly reduced peak timetable is fine imo

 

[Starmill]

Great, it only takes 5 trains to get from Medway to Gatwick!

No just 2. Medway to London Bridge. And London Bridge to Gatwick.

Most likely at a much higher cost.

So change at Denmark Hill and Clapham Junction then?

I can't imagine people from Medway stations travelling to Gatwick Airport go via Wateringbury & Edenbridge anyway, as tickets are route 'not via London', and not 'via Edenbridge'.

A through service from Strood to Gatwick Airport would be great, the last thing people laden with luggage want is multiple changes and at the moment the only realistic option is to go via London.

Unfortunately, previous attempts to run such services have shown that demand for a slow trundle on this route is practically inexistant even on through trains. Far more straightforward to go via London, particularly when Maidstone is linked to London Bridge (albeit more expensive).

I've created a new thread for this discussion here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...n-kent-inc-medway-and-gatwick-airport.237704/

 

[350401]

Just been checking the December timetable, and the removal of the Ramsgate services has left a big hole in the timetable from Bromley South to Victoria. There are a lot of services from xx.00 - xx.34, and then a 26 minute gap to the next service at xx.00. The service is no longer turn up and go. This is pretty disappointing; if services needed to be cut, then the remaining services should have spread out, rather than having a very lopsided timetable. Given the high loadings on the current services, I’m expecting bad overcrowding come December, especially on the xx.03 services.

 

[Bald Rick]

Exactly, I think people overestimated working from home, we will go back to 2019 levels eventually, that’s why I think SE are having a knee jerk reaction, trains may not be like they were in 2019 but it’s nearer to that point than it is to 2020-2021.

Eventually is a long time away.

Important to remember that although passenger numbers are bumping along in the mid 80s%, on average for the network, that revenue is rather lower. And, we have missed out on 3 years growth - the network should by now have been receiving about 115% of Pre Covid revenue. That’s a big gap.

It's 2022 and in some areas rail passengers are about 90-93% of their pre-pandemic levels. I'm no mathematician, but the services we have right now are definitely not at 93% of what they used to be.

Quite so, services are now only 89% of what they were, albeit rather higher in terms of passenger capacity, which I’m fairly sure is more or less back at Pre Covid levels. (Compare the number of coaches taken out of service with those introduced to service in the past 3 years).

 

[BrianB]

Fab digital December timetables are all up already. Lumo trains have LD heading in...
https://timetables.fabdigital.uk/nrt/dec2022/020 London to Lincoln, Doncaster, Hull, Leeds, West Yorkshire, York, the North East, Newcastle, Edinburgh and Scotland.pdf

The rest of the timetables are at https://timetables.fabdigital.uk/nrt/dec2022/

Sorry but I had to pull table 020 due to ongoing changes, only minor, but enough to warrant a full refresh. It will be re-issued at some point soon.

 

[Edsmith]

Not running the Medway Valley line through to Tonbridge is very poor decision with a limp excuse of


The timetable is the same at school hours as it is the rest of the day so it either works or it doesn't. When will the railway get you need to provide connectivity if you are going to promote modal shift.

Probably just to give it a bit more recovery time, it's about 51 minutes Strood to Tonbridge so very little slack if anything goes wrong.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Probably just to give it a bit more recovery time, it's about 51 minutes Strood to Tonbridge so very little slack if anything goes wrong.

But theoretically you don’t have to stop at all stations. You could lose a couple, such as having one miss Beltring and Yalding, and the other East Farleigh and Cuxton, and therefore drive down the journey time by another 4 minutes. Push that to the Strood ends and it’s a bit less wobbly.